Miss A. won't go on trail by herself

[PaulaO]

The title about sums it up. Mod, feel free to move this to a training forum.

Miss A. is great on trail with other horses. That is one of the reasons I leased her. However, this weekend was not good. I wanted to ride from the barn to the outdoor, which is about 4 blocks away, down the driveway and across the grass. Saturday she was naughty, didn't want to go forward, kept evading. Fortunately one of the trainers helped me get over there by telling me what to do. Yes, there are gaps in my knowledge.

Yesterday she was even worse. I did what I did on Saturday, but she either stood stock still (and no amount of thumping would get her to go), or she backedbackebacked to the point I thought she would rear. I finally gave up and rode back to the barn. I then tried to handwalk over the arena and same thing. Balk, spin, freeze.

A few factors on Sunday though. It was time to come in when I started to ride, the guys were bringing in the horses, a trail ride went out, and nobody was in the outdoor. I learned later that she hates to be alone, either in the barn, or in turnout. It sets her anxiety off big time. The first week she was in her new stall she was a wreck. She has underlying anxiety and as long as she is comfortable in her environment, she is great.

I don't know if this is something we can "work through." Someone told me "she needs her ass kicked." Uh, no, she doesn't. She would be fine with another horse, but there are times nobody is around, or I want to ride by myself, or I don't want to bother others.

Yes, I could have one of the trainers ride her but that doesn't really help me. In fact, if I found the issue was because of me I would cry. I'm not afraid or anxious when I ride her. In fact, I trust her more than I ever trusted Bob.

I was hoping she would be an all-around horse, you know, ride in the arena, do baby jumps, go on trail. I'm very disappointed and sad and if this continues, I won't buy her because she wouldn't be what I want.

Please give me encouragement that we can get through this. Maybe it just takes time.

[LeoApp]

I think you need to spend bonding time with her. Become a herd of two. Without always riding her when you go to the barn, why don't you take her for a walk away from the barn. Use gloves and a helmet, and a lead with a chain. Bring treats. Walk her to a distance where she is still happy and comfortable, then walk back to the barn and praise her. Keep increasing your circumference. Don't force anything but do ask for a good marching walk. It is great to form a relationship with ground work. This will translate to work under saddle. I did this with a horse that screamed his head off when being lead away from the barn to the trail. I worked with him and got him to really enjoy my company and our forays.
Good luck. I really hope you get to the point where you can enjoy a nice trail ride with her just the two of you.

[Rockabilly]

Good Post, Tina.

[Hayburner]

Great Advise from LeoApp ! No need to rush things with her...you both are still a very new partnership.

[StraightForward]

Did you start the in-hand work you asked about a couple weeks ago? Try doing that to get her to focus on you away from the barn (once you're proficient at it in her comfort zone). She should be looking to you as the leader to walk her any where. Practice projecting confidence and composure.

[PaulaO]

Yes, I do in hand work with her, but in the arena. I will work on it outside, and do mother pony bonding time. Both are excellent ideas. I don't think she's had any "true" owner for years, just a school horse (but worth her weight in gold). I am so comfortable with her that I forget we are a new partnership.

[calvin]

Miss A. will be fine. The in-hand suggestions are great. I had a horse with this issue - is it called "barn sour" or something? In short, we went 5 feet one day. And grazed. And went back to the barn. Then ten feet .... you get the idea. I worked under saddle, but what works on the ground will, over your bonding time, work under saddle. Over time, my horse became a fearless trail horse, whether alone or in company. To the point that he and I were caught in "quickmud" one day, when I ignored his suggestion that the trail really was NOT safe. (memo to self: listen to the horse!) We hacked for miles alone. Miles in company. He was quite prepared to do either with no fuss whatsoever. Do not abandon ship!

[Sue B]

All my horses have always wound up with the opposite problem; i.e. they don't want to come home! That's because, with me, trail riding is a rewarding experience. Literally. When you tried to ride her to the arena, all she knew is that when y'all got there, she was going to have to do work so there was no motivation on her part to go there. This is a side effect of being a schoolie. To fix the issue requires a little time and patience and the mind set of "today, we focus just on making riding out fun!"
Day 1: Step 1, set some treats, or grain out a short distance from the barn and a second treat station 10-15 feet further, Step 2 tack her up and ride her to the treat station only, Step 3 give her the treats. If she is really happy about the treats, try to remount and ride her to the next station and reward her with more treats. If she isn't that excited about the treats (or at station 2) untack her, leave your stuff there on the ground, let her graze or whatever she likes to do and then lead her back to the barn.
Day 2: Keep the first treat station where it was but put the second station further away if she made it to that station the first time. Repeat Day 1's events, but if you can, lunge her back at the barn before putting her away.
Day 3: Move treat station 1 further across the field...
When you do finally make it all the way to the arena, have treats waiting for her there. When she's done eating her treats, either walk or ride her back to the barn, groom her and put her away.
Day 4 and beyond: Have treats ready and waiting at the arena. When you make it to the arena, feed her the treats and either ride or lead her back to the barn. DO NOT RIDE IN THE ARENA. Forever after, randomize when you work her in the arena and when you just play, and in her case, always amply reward the behavior you desire.

[Josette]

What LeoApp described is how I got my guy to trust/bond with me on the trails around our property. When I initially tried him under saddle - frankly it felt dangerous like he might bolt. Poor guy was very frightened as maybe never trail ridden. Now he is a trooper and we can trot our trails. Take the time to bond and get her to focus on you. Now every 3rd day or so is trails only - no ring riding. I need the mental break.

[PaulaO]

All brilliant suggestions! Sue, I would have never thought that she would associate walking "over there" with arena work. "Over there" is surrounded by grass areas to ride on, but I guess nobody has ever ridden her just for walkies on the grass. Issue is, I will not let any horse graze with a bridle on. But I can find a work around, maybe leave the halter and leadline at the "graze station" and take her bridle off before treats/grass.

There is a great grass area right behind the barn that I can ride on, the size of a small arena. But that gets boring and with 140 acres to ride on, I'd like to "get out there."

[Hayburner]

SueB's suggestion of setting treat areas for her is kind of how I got my gelding to go on trail with just me...

I started out staying close to the barn and pasture areas - and I'd let him eat some grass - then move a little further away - then another stop for more grass. I know it's not a good idea to let them eat on trail rides - but, we were just casual around the farm trail riders. It got to the point that he knew where his stops were so he was nice and forward for me. I ended up never having a problem taking him out alone. He actually looked forward to going as it was relaxing and he got some good grass and alfalfa fields to munch in. When corn was growing, he'd yank out a nice big stalk and drag it along the trail..Boy, I miss those days, we had so much fun, my old guy is 29 now and retired from riding.

[kande50]

All of the ones I ride on trail know where the next grass/treat break will be and are eager to get there. I am fairly strict about leaving the grass though, because I really don't like it when I say it's time to go and they ignore me because they're trying to stuff more in. I also don't tolerate any demands that we go over to the grass right now, because that can get out of hand pretty quickly.

[Josette]

OMG! 140 acres to ride - - you need to get out there!! I'd give my wisdom teeth again to have access to an area like that without crazy bikers!

[Flight]

Again I'll recommend Warwick Schiller's stuff for learning where to put pressure on a horse and when not to. He does a '50 foot trail ride' video to show how to work with barn sour horses. A bit hard to explain, basically you put pressure on them when they go where they want (barn) and none when they move away from the barn. SueB's method is along the lines of it I guess, by rewarding when they've moved away from the barn.

[PaulaO]

OMG! 140 acres to ride - - you need to get out there!! I'd give my wisdom teeth again to have access to an area like that without crazy bikers!

All private property, no bikers. Just a frustrated old bag with her red headed mare.

I'm intrigued by Warwick Schiller and may spring for a month subscription to his video library.

[piedmontfields]

Paula, I hope you get the sense that this is "within semi-normal limits" for re-training.

I do think a combo of positive riding, focused ground work (including outside the arena) and habit changes + bonding will yield real results.

FWIW, a much less experienced owner at my barn has been dealing with this with an 18+ year old mare (she just never pushed the boundaries on trails in the 4 years she has had her). A combination of lessons focussed on reactions to aids, a few days of week of trail riding or arena work from a trainer and supported trail rides = one year later, the owner can ride out on our 120 acre farm by herself. FWIW, this is a fairly non-reactive, calm mare who had simply set some limits with her less experienced owner.

I think Arial will take a whole lot less work given the amount of training she has in her and the skills that you already have.

[PaulaO]

Paula, I hope you get the sense that this is "within semi-normal limits" for re-training.

I think Arial will take a whole lot less work given the amount of training she has in her and the skills that you already have.

This is what I wanted to hear! As I've said before, Bob was born with all his buttons installed. Miss A. and I will work this out, step by step. I never thought of it as re-training, but it is. And I have good people to go to when I need to. I'm not going to "kick her ass" but I am going to work on more bonding time, and with ground work. She is smart like a whip so this shouldn't be so terribly hard.

I picked riding to the outdoor as it is a stretch goal for me. Just beyond my comfort zone. I never thought of HER comfort zone. There are other places to ride to that would be a stretch goal for me. And her. Just have to figure it out. Thank you everyone for suggestions, and feel free to add to my growing stash of re-training a redheaded OTTB schoolie mare! (I am really attached to this girl)

[Hayburner]

Another thing you can do in bits and pieces - is to not ride her on trail nor saddle her up - just take her for hand walks on the trail. Treat it as part of your bonding time. Maybe even take a brush along to groom and keep her relaxed and enjoying the time you are together. She needs to feel safe with you.
Another way would be to go ahead and saddle her up - but, have a friend walk along with you two. That might help her feel safe too. Maybe somewhere along the line, she had a bad experience on trail so she's reluctant to go out alone again.

[kande50]

Someone I know who starts her WB babies herself takes them out in hand and when they're calm she gets on (rocks, logs and stumps are her friends). If they get nervous she gets off and leads them until they're calm again, and then gets back on.

Some might think that getting off would reward them for acting up, but apparently it doesn't, or the rewards aren't significant, because she gets all of hers going out on trail by themselves that way.

I can always find someone to ride with me so don't have any trouble getting mine out on trail, and then eventually they become confident enough that they'll go out by themselves.

[Kyra's Mom]

I am not a trail rider of late and as such, my last two horses were turned into what I call an arena flower .

My last ride alone, I got 'planted' in the hay field (our trail) after a pheasant flushed right under her nose. No injury to me but the horse took off across the 40 acre field and ended up by the owner's house just as she drove in and saw a saddled horse with no rider . Anyway, I decided no more riding out alone. Not from a fear of falling off standpoint but fear of no one around to call 911. With my tailbone spur that limits my time in the saddle, taking her out with a group just isn't worth it for me. I don't know of anyone that hauls out for 30 minutes.

That said, I started something last year that has helped the horse a lot and that is getting her out of the arena most every ride even if it is just walking around the driveway and parking lot around the indoor building. Usually I ride across the road and around the trotting track for our cool down (about 1/2 mile). She has gotten much better and is much more relaxed out of the arena. A pocket full of treats to help along the way isn't bad either. So, just start working at getting her a little out of her comfort zone every ride/(or visit if you do ground work).

As a former lesson horse, I imagine she is pretty set in her ways and it will take persistence and patience.

Susan

[Josette]

Is there another rider with a quiet horse who you can trail ride with at least 1-2 times per week? This is another way I had trained my horses to trail ride with another confident experienced trail horse. Also, this worked with a friend who had a ring horse with no prior trail experience and she rode with me. Her gelding ended up being a super sane trail horse and we participated in numerous trail paces together. We actually won 4 and they were so much fun!

Some horses do very well with a mental break and change from always riding in a ring. A riding partner will also help you with nerves or if any issue should arise. Frankly, as previously mentioned it is always a good idea to ride with a friend when available.

[PaulaO]

We had a good session tonight. Lots of groomies and skritches and carrots. I hand walked her down the driveway at a marching walk, letting her eat grass. I saw a worried look come across her face when we got to a certain point so we stopped and she ate grass. At that point I did a little in hand work, move her haunches, walk on, stop. Then we went a bit farther and repeated. Back to the barn for more grazing and groomies. We will get there eventually.....

[heddylamar]

Don't give up hope.

My recently departed oldster did that when we got her. Prior to us, she'd lived alone for years and became badly herd bound immediately upon moving to our barn. Firm direction and bonding got her moving, and she quickly became a fantastic eventer.

Stay patient

I have a few less pretty (not abusive by any means) tricks to try too, if you don't make any progress. PM me if you're interested.

[LeoApp]

We had a good session tonight. Lots of groomies and skritches and carrots. I hand walked her down the driveway at a marching walk, letting her eat grass. I saw a worried look come across her face when we got to a certain point so we stopped and she ate grass. At that point I did a little in hand work, move her haunches, walk on, stop. Then we went a bit farther and repeated. Back to the barn for more grazing and groomies. We will get there eventually.....

Perfect. This is exactly what I was talking about. She will soon be looking forward to getting to that grassy spot and beyond.

[exploding pony]

To the posters who mentioned Warwick, I am just going to tell you a story.

About this famous guy who boards at a local barn for a few months when he is in between gigs. And during the daylight hours gives these amazing lessons, but if you happen to ride early in the morning, before anyone else is around, like some dressage gals who have crazy jobs and work long hours, you witness what really happens.

Sorry but there is no time I would ever be any part of his program - for all his words, the horses who did not go along with the program ended up bloody. It was horrific.

[Flight]

To the posters who mentioned Warwick, I am just going to tell you a story.

About this famous guy who boards at a local barn for a few months when he is in between gigs. And during the daylight hours gives these amazing lessons, but if you happen to ride early in the morning, before anyone else is around, like some dressage gals who have crazy jobs and work long hours, you witness what really happens.

Sorry but there is no time I would ever be any part of his program - for all his words, the horses who did not go along with the program ended up bloody. It was horrific.

Oh really?!!! That's so disappointing to hear. His stuff has really helped me with my horse, and my own learning to deal with horses. I hate to think of any of it as cruel.

[kande50]

Oh really?!!! That's so disappointing to hear. His stuff has really helped me with my horse, and my own learning to deal with horses. I hate to think of any of it as cruel.

I think we can learn a lot about technique from trainers who may be much harder on their horses than we would ever be, but just have to be careful not to buy into the idea that treating horses that way is fine because some BNT does it, or because"everyone" else does it.

I think most have good instincts for what is kind and what isn't, but sometimes doubt themselves and then go along with what others think is okay.

OTOH, if I heard that someone was cruel to horses and there was enough evidence that it was true, I'd not only spend my money elsewhere, but I'd spread the word in hopes that it would help put pressure on the abuser to change their ways.

[PaulaO]

I've been hand walking her down the driveway to her point of anxiety. Then we grazed at the scary spot. Today was a nice marching walk interspersed with halts and a piece of carrot. Progress is slow but steady.

[exploding pony]

Well said Kande. The whole experience was horrifying and disappointing.