Help me Horse Shop?!? - Now need help with names :)

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Wed May 15, 2019 2:40 pm

My upper level horse is fading into retirement due to a mysterious lameness in the hoof that doesn't seem to be resolving. So...I'm horse shopping!

I've been watching FB and looking on warmblood-sales.com and I'm finding expensive in-utero and weanlings and some cheap 2-3 year olds and am a bit lost if I should take a gamble on the decent looking 3 year old or buy younger and wait and hope. There is a local breeder and I think she's breeding quality, fancy, and popular dressage bloodlines but pricey - I'm not sure I need that much quality and specific "dressage" breeding.

Thank you for any help you are willing to provide!

Josette · Postby **Josette** » Wed May 15, 2019 10:45 pm

https://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDe ... serID=9241

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Wed May 15, 2019 11:46 pm

Based on my ONE experience, I vote buying something at last 3 or 4. You will pay board and vet for at least 2-3 years on a yearling before you can finally ride, and find out what you've got.

I bought an VERY well bred 6 moth old colt and he's rising 7 now. And he has shivers and PSSM. Meaning he needs 24/7 turnout in an area where turnout + good dressage trainers is not a combo you can find. At all. I have to trailer him 1.5 hours each way to my trainer, and he hates trailering alone. Meaning: he's at training level at age 7.

He was also meant to make 16.2 and be a good jumper with great gaits per his parents. He's a SOLID, heavy, 17.1 and superbly unathletic to tiny jumps, as well as being a real kick ride with pretty basic gaits.

Don't get me wrong - I adore his giant face, but I would never have bought an adult horse like this, and he's completely unsellable...

Hayburner · Postby **Hayburner** » Thu May 16, 2019 12:35 am

The gelding Josette posted looks and sounds nice and he's in your same state so possibly the transport costs would be nil.

StraightForward · Postby **StraightForward** » Thu May 16, 2019 3:58 am

Xanthoria wrote:Based on my ONE experience, I vote buying something at last 3 or 4. You will pay board and vet for at least 2-3 years on a yearling before you can finally ride, and find out what you've got.

I bought an VERY well bred 6 moth old colt and he's rising 7 now. And he has shivers and PSSM. Meaning he needs 24/7 turnout in an area where turnout + good dressage trainers is not a combo you can find. At all. I have to trailer him 1.5 hours each way to my trainer, and he hates trailering alone. Meaning: he's at training level at age 7.

He was also meant to make 16.2 and be a good jumper with great gaits per his parents. He's a SOLID, heavy, 17.1 and superbly unathletic to tiny jumps, as well as being a real kick ride with pretty basic gaits.

Don't get me wrong - I adore his giant face, but I would never have bought an adult horse like this, and he's completely unsellable...

Yeah... different experience here, but I bought a 2.5 year old from a reputable breeder, specifically looking for ammy friendly lines, and ended up with a monster bucker, and have the chronic ankle injury to prove it. So I would also vote for saving up and spending more on a lightly started horse in a couple years if you can't afford to buy one that doesn't work out. But then I ended up with another 2.5 year old - based on law of averages, this one has to work out, right? Right??

With that said, being in WI, you might search in Canada; more stock at better prices.

Rosie B · Postby **Rosie B** » Thu May 16, 2019 12:51 pm

I also bought a 2.5 year old from a respectable breeder. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I did my homework on the bloodlines before buying, and went with the youngster with the best ammie friendly bloodlines and a reputation for good work ethic on both top and bottom that I could find. I went with a breeder friend of mine and looked at about 40 young horses, and he had the nicest mix of temperament, breeding, and athleticism. He was nowhere near the flashiest of the horses we looked at, but was well bred.

I started him myself (never having started a horse before) and although I made some mistakes, he is a wonderful horse for an ammie like me. He's 9 now, and schooling 2nd/third. I can trail ride with him, jump him, he's great around traffic, kids, and other animals, and is generally just a joy, as well as being beautiful... (can you tell I'm smitten??)

I am in Canada, and given the strength of the US dollar at the moment, you may want to look at some of the breeders in there. Some of them do a great job producing amateur sport horses at reasonable prices.

Here's the breeder I bought from:
http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com/

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Thu May 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Josette wrote:https://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=55616&UserID=9241

Thank you - I had seen him (and I actually know the seller). He's outside of my desired breed with the Morgan. While I think he's adorable, his trot is just a little "pony" looking for me.

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Thu May 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Thanks everyone.

If I can find a gelding around 2 or 3 that I think is a decent risk, that's what I'd prefer to buy. If we don't end up being a good match, I can put 1 to 1.5 years of starting under saddle and doing a few shows and sell, hopefully recouping at least the original purchase price.

My original plan was to keep riding my current horse while I waited for a yearling to grow up, but he's facing retirement. I'm pretty sure I can find decent horses to ride/school in the meantime if I bought a yearling (I'm rehabbing one for the owner right now and schooling up another 2x week for her owner to sell). But riding someone else's horse on their schedule is not the same thing as making plans and goals for a horse of my own.

I will say finding a 2 year old gelding in my price range is like a black hole - lots of fillies but all the colts and geldings must be getting sold before they turn 2.

Please, if you find anything else that peaks your interest or know of smaller breeders local to you, let me know.

Ryeissa · Postby **Ryeissa** » Thu May 16, 2019 2:52 pm

I'm a bit more local than some to you so I will definitely keep an eye out

blob · Postby **blob** » Thu May 16, 2019 4:01 pm

Tlkidding, would you board the youngster somewhere or do you have your own property?

I ask because I know someone who purchased a yearling in europe (where he could get more bang for buck) and found that it was actually quite a bit cheaper to keep the youngster boarded there until he was ready to bring it home (of course if you have your own place that's the cheapest option!). That also spread out cost of purchase and importing. It worked out well for him, he got something incredibly fancy at a good price and even went ahead and had it started overseas and brought it back ready to go. But of course he could have brought it back at any point. I'm sure this requires having a contact/situation you trust over there--but more and more people have reliable contacts in Europe that might be able to point you in the right direction.

Just something to think about! In the meantime I'll keep my eye out for any snappy youngsters!

I will say that if you're buying unstarted, might be worth looking at weanlings and yearlings. I know with some breeders the unstarted 2 and 3 year olds they have are the ones they couldn't sell earlier.

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Thu May 16, 2019 4:33 pm

Rosie B wrote:I also bought a 2.5 year old from a respectable breeder. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I did my homework on the bloodlines before buying, and went with the youngster with the best ammie friendly bloodlines and a reputation for good work ethic on both top and bottom that I could find. I went with a breeder friend of mine and looked at about 40 young horses, and he had the nicest mix of temperament, breeding, and athleticism. He was nowhere near the flashiest of the horses we looked at, but was well bred.

I started him myself (never having started a horse before) and although I made some mistakes, he is a wonderful horse for an ammie like me.

Aside from 2.5 yrs vs 6 months, I did the same. My horse was 4th in the nation and won his site inspection too.

All the research I did and advice I took didn't include testing for PSSM or waiting until he was 3-4 when shivers can first start to show up. The breeder was just as shocked as me.

All I'll say is buying a baby is a total gamble so be prepared. And test for PSSM - all variants...

Chisamba · Postby **Chisamba** » Thu May 16, 2019 5:46 pm

Are you looking only at warmbloods?

Yes for sure do PSSM testing

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Thu May 16, 2019 8:07 pm

Chisamba wrote:Are you looking only at warmbloods?

Yes for sure do PSSM testing

Only WB or WB/TB (what I have right now). I'd do a GRP, but in my head I consider those warmbloods of a sort.

Thanks all for the tip on PSSM testing. I though to do the most accurate test, you had to do a tissue biopsy. I'm not sure many breeders/owners would let a prospective buyer do a biopsy during a PPE. Does the hair analysis cover enough of the PSSM types? How long to get results back?

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Thu May 16, 2019 8:23 pm

I wrote an article about PSSM recently: here's a paste of how to avoid buying a horse with PSSM.

Over 10% of Quarter Horses are affected for PSSM1. Over 60% of Percherons and 90% of Belgian Draft horses are affected. The American Quarter Horse Association requires genetic testing for PSSM1 and four other genetic conditions (GBED, HYPP, MH, and HERDA) when a Quarter Horse is registered.

Breeds affected by PSSM2 include Dutch Warmblood, Swedish Warmblood, Hanoverian, Friesian, Selle Francais, Westfalian, Canadian Warmblood, Irish Sport Horse, Haflingers, Gerdlander, Hussien, and Icelandic horses. Many other light breeds have also been diagnosed with PSSM2 including Morgans, Standardbreds, Thoroughbreds and Arabians, as well as performance (vs halter bred) Quarter Horses.

First ask if the sire and dam were tested for PSSM. If the seller can prove they are negative, and not carriers, you don’t need to test for the variant (type 1 or 2) they tested for.

If the sire or dam were not tested, decide if the horse’s breed is likely to be more prone to PSSM 1 or 2. If you’re looking at a Quarter Horse, at least test for PSSM1 for example.

The PSSM1 test is relatively quick and easy - a hair test, about $40, and takes a few days from http://www.animalgenetics.us/equine/gen ... e/PSSM.asp

For PSSM2 I’m sure no seller would agree to a muscle biopsy on a sale horse, but there is a hair test for PSSM2 from http://equiseq.com/ Unfortunately, it costs $249 and takes at least 2 weeks, by which time many horses are sold. What can a buyer do?

First, check bridgequine.com to see if the horse’s pedigree contains carriers. Also ask the Facebook group PSSM Forum if they can I.D. any suspects.

If the horse is in full time work, and hasn’t shown any symptoms, the risk decreases. If not, you may wish to ask the seller if you can grab a hair sample the first day you see the horse, overnight it for testing and hope the wait isn’t too long.

For shivers, the only diagnosis is by video - I suggest you watch the videos available on YouTube or the presentation Dr Valberg did, so you can learn the signs. Asking your vet to perform a neurological exam as part of the pre purchase exam on any horse is advised. https://www.myhorseuniversity.com/singl ... -Explained

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Thu May 16, 2019 8:31 pm

I'll add that the QH world is in a state of shambles with PSSM right now - people continue to breed positive and carrier horses freely. WB breeders need to step in and start testing their stock for this and other genetic diseases, and buyers need to start asking if their stock is tested. If a breeder or trainer thinks they've never had a PSSM horse, they're probably wrong. It's likely they had a horse that was slow, behind the leg, never much of a jumper and it was a mild, undiagnosed case. Or they bought OTTB mares who couldn't run because of it, never had a performance career, and were just bred. Or they sold babies on before PSSM was suspected in them.

Bip · Postby **Bip** » Fri May 17, 2019 1:28 pm

Xan, you were supposed to HELP her horse shop, not totally freak her out, lol.

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Fri May 17, 2019 1:55 pm

Yeah sorry

Just don’t want anyone ending up as sad as I am over this kind of thing!

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Fri May 17, 2019 3:08 pm

Thanks Xan!

So I have the bloodlines of 2 of the horses I'm considering. Is the the page on bridgequine? If so, I'm not sure I'll pay $30 unless I'm suspicious of one of the horses. One is by Sir Donnerhall and the other by Der Graf.

https://www.bridgequine.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=210:online-database&catid=44&Itemid=557&lang=en

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Fri May 17, 2019 4:32 pm

Ill ask on the FB group: people usually have a good idea of “culprits“ in a pedigree there. Can you PM sire and dam?

calvin · Postby **calvin** » Fri May 17, 2019 4:36 pm

Given the premium the USD has these days, this 3 year old gelding (in Canada) is in your price range.

The sire was credited with producing a great mind in the foals with which I am familiar. Now, let's see if I can send the link properly . . .

[url]https://www.canadianhanoverians.com/marketplace/horses-for-sale/bellamy-bonheur-czaftigcontucci//url]

Canyon · Postby **Canyon** » Fri May 17, 2019 5:17 pm

I don't have any prospects to recommend, but I can fix calvin's link -

http://www.canadianhanoverians.com/marketplace/horses-for-sale/bellamy-bonheur-czaftigcontucci

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Fri May 17, 2019 6:18 pm

calvin wrote:Given the premium the USD has these days, this 3 year old gelding (in Canada) is in your price range.

The sire was credited with producing a great mind in the foals with which I am familiar. Now, let's see if I can send the link properly . . .

[url]https://www.canadianhanoverians.com/marketplace/horses-for-sale/bellamy-bonheur-czaftigcontucci//url]

They've upped his price (I think the original ad was posted a few years ago - here's a more recent one. Even if I negotiate the price down, transport is going to be quite a bit to get him to WI.

Let me know if you find anything else. The shopping in Canada was a good idea and I found a cute 2 year old in Ontario that's actually closer than some of the others I've been looking into in the US.

https://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDetail1.asp?HorseID=48622&UserID=17807

Ponichiwa · Postby **Ponichiwa** » Fri May 17, 2019 10:00 pm

Your neck of the woods, colt with good breeding, and $9500:

https://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDe ... serID=1084

Koolkat · Postby **Koolkat** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:47 am

I like him a lot more than the first one, but a colt with a nose full of phlegm is not something I'd have a warm, fuzzy about. Last time I had a young horse like that, they ended up w/ permanent respiratory issues. Definitely something to put under the microscope (so to speak) in the vet exam. I saw no sign of that in the younger pics, so I assume it's not just nostril markings. He's nice, otherwise.

Rosie B · Postby **Rosie B** » Sat May 18, 2019 1:54 pm

Tlkidding here’s what my breeder friend had to say about Sir Donnerhall:

In the majority of riders I've talked to about Sir Donnerhall and sons, they save relatively the same thing. They are tougher in the contact, some have a big "F" you button, are quite sensitive, and find collection harder. This is not the case for all, of course, each one has a dam. If the dam is quiet, push button, easy and ammy friendly, the offspring may be just the right amount of sensitive. But from a Dutch line Jazz/Ferro line, a Sir D would be firey, hot and a pro ride.

Can you share the dam line?

Rosie B · Postby **Rosie B** » Sat May 18, 2019 2:02 pm

In addition to the farm I already posted, the following breeding operations are also in Ontario:

Parkwood Stables (owned by the Parkinsons, they stand the stallion Fabregas)
Pangaea farms (they stand the stallion Harvard among others)
There are others I visited but I can’t recall the names at the moment.

Linden · Postby **Linden** » Wed May 22, 2019 10:33 am

https://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=52083&UserID=6227

How about this? You just have to keep yourself busy in the meantime. Maybe lease something or rehab a rescue?

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Wed May 29, 2019 6:10 pm

I got the seller to take new photos and video of this guy. I really like his expression and way of going but might be blinded by the nice front end and shoulder and not looking at the hind and whole picture enough.

https://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=51162&UserID=9464. Video is on the second tab of the ad.

Also, he's downhill from stifle to shoulder at 3 years old - is this something that he could still grow out of? Both parents are at least level if not uphill.

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Wed May 29, 2019 6:21 pm

Caveat: I am not a vet, and many conformational issues are utterly eclipsed by a horse's willingness and desire to work.

However, I would say he looks pretty immature, so the downhill part may go away. In videos, he doesn't move downhill, and this may never be an issue.

Things I noticed: his pastern angles are quite low, visible especially in photo 3, and in the same photo (where he's facing left) his hocks look quite straight. IOW post legged. You can see in the video also his hind pasterns hit the ground in trot and canter. These things together *may* indicate DSLD. That would worry me more than his apparent downhill conformation. If it isn't DSLD, at the very least those tendons and ligaments are getting a lot of strain, and may not hold up to work.

Postby **Chancellor** » Wed May 29, 2019 6:30 pm

Okay, Xan, how the heck do you see his hind pasterns hitting the ground. Not doubting you see it but wondering HOW you see it.

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Wed May 29, 2019 6:34 pm

I stopped the video and scrolled through. Could just be super deep footing but the stills of his pasterns do look low as well.

KathyK · Postby **KathyK** » Wed May 29, 2019 11:54 pm

I don't have anything to offer but sympathy and commiseration. Looking for a horse is discouraging, frustrating, and at times, defeating. Until you find the one. And if you keep at it, you will. I was about to give up, and I'm glad I hung in there.

musical comedy · Postby **musical comedy** » Thu May 30, 2019 12:28 am

tlkidding wrote:I got the seller to take new photos and video of this guy. I really like his expression and way of going but might be blinded by the nice front end and shoulder and not looking at the hind and whole picture enough.

He does have a lovely front end. I think he looks very immature for a 3 year old. Small and kind of scrawny looking. They say he will mature to 15.3. Maybe and maybe not. I wouldn't count on it.

khall · Postby **khall** » Thu May 30, 2019 4:47 pm

Xan I agree completely with your assessment that this gelding has problems with his hind fetlocks. If you look at the picture of him standing with L side presented the angle of his L fetlock is where I would like to see when the leg is vertical yet it is set behind him. You bring that hind leg forward and it would be at a very undesirable angle which straightens that hind leg angles. Yet the RH has too much angle with the cannon forward in front of the stifle when stood up. Something is going on with especially the LH. He is a fancy mover but I would steer well clear of those hind legs.

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Thu May 30, 2019 5:14 pm

Yes khall - it's like he's sickle hocked and post legged/low behind at the same time, depending on the pic?

Photos can be very deceiving of course, but I do see a very "loose moving" horse.

It is so easy to obsess over conformation, and a horse looks utterly different in person many times. tlkidding, what you really NEED is a great, trainable mind and a body that's correct enough not to fall apart.

Your definition of what the latter is (ie what conformational issues you can overlook or not) is totally up to you.

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Thu May 30, 2019 6:56 pm

Xanthoria wrote:Yes khall - it's like he's sickle hocked and post legged/low behind at the same time, depending on the pic?

Photos can be very deceiving of course, but I do see a very "loose moving" horse.

It is so easy to obsess over conformation, and a horse looks utterly different in person many times. tlkidding, what you really NEED is a great, trainable mind and a body that's correct enough not to fall apart.

Your definition of what the latter is (ie what conformational issues you can overlook or not) is totally up to you.

Thank you all for helping me with this! I really liked how loose moving he is through his joints, but you all noted the possible concern with increased elasticity (DSLD) and the loose hind fetlocks. I do know a horse with super elasticity that got into trouble with crookedness and some overuse (hyper-extension?), which was hard to pin down because the joints flexed fine but the supporting soft tissue was seeming to get sore and tight.

I'm going to hold off on this gelding for a bit and see if anything else catches my interest. I shouldn't be in any rush to buy something, but once I decided to start looking...............

Xan is exactly right on what I NEED - a trainable mind and a body put together well enough not to fall apart, and I'll add - 3 clear gaits and if I need to resell, ability to put a clean change on him and decent enough confirmation to not get an automatic swipe left from a buyer.

I'm waiting for a better video and pics on a Sir Donnerhall 2 year old in Canada. I've got 2 terrible videos with almost only trot, and a head-on picture of him, so nothing to share here yet. He's a screaming deal, which makes me very wary, but if he's at least decently enough put together that I could get him going under saddle and recoup costs reselling in a few years...He's a chestnut with white, which I have now and find very attractive. I'll also only be a few hours from him when I'm visiting family in June and he's close to Niagara Falls, so I could see him in person and do a fun road trip.

khall · Postby **khall** » Thu May 30, 2019 7:19 pm

Good luck! I hope you can find what you are looking for.

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:30 pm

I got updated video on the 2 year old - search Northspring Acres on YouTube and look for videos for a 2 year old Hann colt or 2 year old Sir Donnerhall. Other than a long neck and small head, he looks decent to me, so I'm thinking I'll go ahead and vet him. If he turns out not to be exactly what I want, I figure I can get him going under saddle next spring and sell for enough to buy another young horse.

StraightForward · Postby **StraightForward** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:32 pm

That one looks and moves a lot like my 3 yo, though he looks more put together than she did at 2. I don't think his head looks small?? Good luck, I hope he vets out and you can make a deal!

Xanthoria · Postby **Xanthoria** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:26 pm

I like that one!

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:29 pm

Anyone have recommendations for a PPE vet in the Waterloo, Ontario area?

khall · Postby **khall** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:21 am

tlkidding that is a nice looking/moving young gelding! Jingles he vets out cleanly:)

Rosie B · Postby **Rosie B** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:59 pm

He is very nice.

Best of luck!

Koolkat · Postby **Koolkat** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:41 pm

He's lovely. And he seems pretty unflappable, too!

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:30 pm

I got a shipping quote from Ecclestone but does anyone have any other recommendations? It's possible I can get him with a friend's truck and trailer but I really don't want to do the border crossing.

Imperini · Postby **Imperini** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:45 pm

tlkidding wrote:I got a shipping quote from Ecclestone but does anyone have any other recommendations? It's possible I can get him with a friend's truck and trailer but I really don't want to do the border crossing.

Perry http://www.perryt.com/ will do the boarder crossing and are USDOT legal as well but I don't have any actual experience with them.

tlkidding · Postby **tlkidding** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:22 pm

I've gotten a quote from Eccelstone and asked for one from Perry and International as well as a few others but not gotten a response. Any other suggestions for finding a shipper?

musical comedy · Postby **musical comedy** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:44 pm

I would suggest you call these places rather than emailing, if that is what you are doing. I know you are an experienced horse lady, but I would be very careful making your shipper selection based on who is the cheapest. Have you inquired about the experience this younster has loading and shipping?

StraightForward · Postby **StraightForward** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:51 pm

If the seller doesn't have shippers they recommend, you might try other Canadian breeders who are selling stock to the US on a regular basis. I got a few recommendations that way, and then used the one who was able to bring her within the needed timeframe and most direct route.

Tuddy · Postby **Tuddy** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:22 pm

Perry is supposedly the best. You have to call them direct though.

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