DefinitelyDressage.com

Benatus wrote:The whole “consenting teenager” thing deserves scrutiny.

Underage is underage, no matter how independent or self-sufficient a minor appears. An underage teenager cannot "consent."

(I have a feeling you agree)

When I look at all the power and the masses coming down on the side if the powerful, I understand even more why victims have a hard time reporting.

I had an incident in my youth, college student versus bank manager who managed my student loan. I pretended to make a date, reported and moved my loan to a different bank, but I suffered from reporting. I was excluded from certain events, whispered about, kicked out if my lodging. It's ok it made me stronger. But a couple of years later, someone smarter than me reported with evidence. I was interviewed again, and then the floodgates opened. Decades of abuse revealed.

Anyway, for a long long time I was furiously angry at all those victims who didnt report and didnt support me when I reported.

I'm older now, and a bit wiser and I do see how victims might shut up for decades. Look at the social media, everyone is trying to support GM attack safe sport and pretend to care about victims. My list of arseholes not to trust around children us getting longer and longer. Robert Dover is showing himself a person no one could ever report to.

I can understand the reasons for not reporting. I can't understand bringing it out decades later. What is the endgame? I mean, what do the accusers expect to achieve? I would think the goal of reporting is to stop the perp from continuing the behavior. But with the older accused, all it does is tarnish their name. Maybe that is the goal, but is it worth having your name dragged through the social media mud.

musical comedy wrote:I can understand the reasons for not reporting. I can't understand bringing it out decades later. What is the endgame? I mean, what do the accusers expect to achieve? I would think the goal of reporting is to stop the perp from continuing the behavior. But with the older accused, all it does is tarnish their name. Maybe that is the goal, but is it worth having your name dragged through the social media mud.

I think the endgame is to make sure it doesn't happen to someone else. Just because someone is older and no longer as active in the competition circuits as they once were, does not mean they're not still coaching minors. So, in that sense I think it's still important.

One of the hard things with all of this is of course timing. It would be much better if things were reported closer to when they happened. And hopefully that will get easier. But the reality is that no matter how much society evolves to be less tolerant of sexual misconduct and more aware of its signs, it will always be hard for a young kid to speak up against an abuser especially when that person is someone they admire.

musical comedy wrote:I can understand the reasons for not reporting. I can't understand bringing it out decades later. What is the endgame? I mean, what do the accusers expect to achieve? I would think the goal of reporting is to stop the perp from continuing the behavior. But with the older accused, all it does is tarnish their name. Maybe that is the goal, but is it worth having your name dragged through the social media mud.

What if he had murdered someone 50 years ago? Why should he (or anyone) get a pass on this? I am a strong proponent of George Morris's teaching and horsemanship, but for this, I say let the chips fall where they may. Kudos to the brave victims who have come forward.

We don't know that the Morris accusations aren't more recent. His PR firm has put out a statement alleging that the events occurred '68-'72, which has done a great job of framing the story in his favor. But we, the general public, don't know if a) that's true, and b) there aren't additional complaints from a more recent time period.

Ponichiwa wrote:We don't know that the Morris accusations aren't more recent. His PR firm has put out a statement alleging that the events occurred '68-'72, which has done a great job of framing the story in his favor. But we, the general public, don't know if a) that's true, and b) there aren't additional complaints from a more recent time period.

This ^^^ It was his PR firm, not SafeSport that publicly noted dates.

I've been reading about SS (From a general perspective) and there is a very divided opinion on how effective it will be, and how it is set up as a PR media thing more so than a true Code of Conduct enforcer (to some anyways)

Its very underfunded to do what is expected.

I have also worked in government enough to to know large scale implementations like this don't really work as well as hoped.

I am glad it is out now, just like what is happening with the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church. The dirty under belly of these organizations (Olympic sports included as well) need the light shined on them. SS is a very good tool to start the process, when possible I hope criminal charges are also filed.

I'm very bad at dates but about 10 years ago when Jonathan Soresi was charged with child pornography, It was thought he was going to roll GM as a plea deal.. it was said that GM brought Soresi home as 14 year old fatherless boy. There was rumor that NYPD had a file on GM. But at that time no charges were brought. I see that this particular post has been revived in several places. I'm guessing not on the "I stand with George" page. Lots of people are assuming Soresi is the accuser. I do not know, but I feel pretty sure Ribert Dover and all the USET had some knowledge and "stood by George" just like they did after the horse died in his clinic, and after all of the "amusing" nasty bullying incidents in clinics.

Robert Gage was reputed to be a nice man, GM, not so much.

Wow, the NYT article names names and seems quite thorough

Chisamba wrote:Wow, the NYT article names names and seems quite thorough

can you share the link? The one I had seen in the NYT was a brief mention, so I'm guessing there was another article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/08/spor ... orris.html

there are some very good posts on the COTH and one by Farhills 123 ( posted late 8/8 early 8/9) really stands out as a voice of knowledge. This is not about one or two victims, this is about a lifetime of exploitation that the horse community turned a blind eye and deaf ear to.

That post alone is well worth a read. Says far more than the NYT article, which has the feeling of being rushed.

My mother hasn't really followed the horse world in years, and has had nothing to do with show jumping since we left CA in the 80s. When I texted her the NYT article, she immediately responded "I remember the rumors. Guess they weren't."

A (IMO) very good opinion piece on the subject, one I agree with wholeheartedly.

https://the900facebookpony.com/2019/08/ ... xWfIvCA0ig

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/ ... r-olympian

same timeline
same general MO

same same same

KathyK wrote:A (IMO) very good opinion piece on the subject, one I agree with wholeheartedly.

https://the900facebookpony.com/2019/08/ ... xWfIvCA0ig

Excellent article. Thank you for sharing.

So arbitration over, status updated to permanently ineligible wrt George Morris

Good. It might just give pause to the next would-be predator.

Moutaineer wrote:Good. It might just give pause to the next would-be predator.

Hear, hear, Mountaineer.

Good.

Moutaineer wrote:Good. It might just give pause to the next would-be predator.

We can hope. But WOW! I did not think that would actually be upheld just because of who he is.

musical comedy wrote:I can understand the reasons for not reporting. I can't understand bringing it out decades later. What is the endgame? I mean, what do the accusers expect to achieve? I would think the goal of reporting is to stop the perp from continuing the behavior. But with the older accused, all it does is tarnish their name. Maybe that is the goal, but is it worth having your name dragged through the social media mud.

How about standing up for the truth? Reclaiming the power by speaking out? Your own self dignity and respect? The relief of finally being able to talk about what has haunted you for years or decades?

I cannot fathom questioning why a victim would want to speak out about the crime.

musical comedy wrote:I can understand the reasons for not reporting. I can't understand bringing it out decades later. What is the endgame? I mean, what do the accusers expect to achieve? I would think the goal of reporting is to stop the perp from continuing the behavior. But with the older accused, all it does is tarnish their name. Maybe that is the goal, but is it worth having your name dragged through the social media mud.

It's to send a message to anyone who may think they might be able to get away with it. IOW, punishing those who are unlikely to reoffend isn't the primary goal. The goal is to send a clear message to those who still need to know that this isn't something they want to do, and to the victims who may still need the support.

According to the current print COTH, George Morris is permanently banned by Safe Sport.

I’m very late to this, as I’ve been away from DDBB. My current job is the criminal investigation of sexual assaults on a college campus. I’ve been in law enforcement for 31 years.

I recently was involved with a case that came from Safe Sport. I think of them as administrative, like Title IX. The investigator I’ve been working with is very impressive. Are they all? No idea. This one is an excellent and impartial investigator.

Why do women report after so many years? Because their lives have been negatively impacted and the climate has changed, although not nearly enough IMO. Because their abusers often befriended their parents. Because they were often not believed , not even by family. Because the abuser was a big name and in a position of power. Because the victim had goals and endured their abuse to further their ambition. Because of self blame, and shame, and guilt.

False reporting for sexual assault is the same for other crimes, around 5%. Does it happen? Yes. Is it usually discovered? Yes. Is it devastating for the person falsely accused? Yes. What are the statistics for sexual assault cases? How many are criminally charged? Of those, how many are found guilty? And, of those, how many serve time? It is appallingly minuscule. Looked at objectively, odds are high that a person can commit sexual assault and get away with it.

Safe Sport isn’t perfect. Neither is Title IX. Neither is our criminal justice system. Safe Sport and Title IX operate under a preponderance of the evidence, or what we call 50% and a feather. Criminal courts require evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

We are understanding trauma better, understanding how it impacts the brain and memory. This has informed our interview techniques. The best description I ever heard of traumatic memory was that it was like 52 card pick up. All the cards are there but not in order. The other thing about trauma is that memory is usually like a movie. Trauma memory is like snapshots.

So to all the women I thought were lying to me because they couldn’t answer “what happened next”, I am sorry for failing you. Now I ask, “What is the next thing you remember.”

For those who know someone or were themselves falsely accused, I am sorry. It is devastating even when the system clears you. I know it doesn’t help to know that for every person falsely accused there are WAY more people afraid to come forward. And honestly, more often than not, the criminal justice system is not going to help you. And socially you will be dragged through the mud.

It’s ugly. For everyone. But like it or not, I think we need Safe Sport. I’m glad it’s there.