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A comment Wheresyourwhite made on another thread about rude driving reminded me of this. I'm reading a Brene Brown book (a social worker/researcher who writes about vulnerability) and she brings up the "innocent" but really quite complicated question "do you think people are doing the best they can, or can they do better?". It was raised to her by a therapist and her initial reaction was "Hell no, people can do better!".

So I thought I'd share that question with the group!

Do you think people are doing the best they can?

(I will share my own thoughts, too, but I'll put that below.)

Wait....do i think I am doing the best i can? Yup, most of the time anyways. Lol Do I think OTHER people are doing the best THEY can? Hmmmm, sometimes I sincerely hope that what I witness is not that person's best.

That is a question with many answers.

In general: I think a lot of people today are not doing the best they can, but are doing what they think is 'good enough'. It seems to me that a whole lot of people put in just enough effort to get by with the minimum amount of negative feedback. Or what they consider an okay amount of negative, anyway. Not that they are necessarily happy with their life, but they are 'happy enough' and don't want to put in more effort to reach a different (happier? better?) place.

But then again, who gets to determine what markers indicate the doing best they can? I'm sure that, given my academic abilities in school, many people would expect me to have a 'better' job than I do. But, I love working in horse barns and don't mind cleaning stalls. I do mind office politics and other snobberies that go on in many 'better' workplaces than a barn, and so, due to my husband having a great job that provides all our needs, I choose to work in an environment I love versus one that uses more of my 'abilities'. Dh and I also choose to live quite a bit simpler than most of the people he works with, so I'm sure to them hearing that we don't have AC in our house, cook from scratch and rarely go out to eat, don't take fancy vacations, and choose to drive vehicles we've owned for 6-10 or more years (and paid off eons ago) they are pretty sure we aren't doing 'the best that we could' because we lack the typical social status markers for his economic peers.

No one wants to fail, people do not always have clear role models, I tend to err on the side of most people are doing the best they know how to do.

Edited to add, this possible excludes violent criminals

Ah, Chisamba, now there's a very interesting distinction.

Hmm I think in some instances yes yet I know that is not the case in many instances. For example, (I am involved in rescue locally) just recently a pit bull puppy was brought into the local kill shelter https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 409&type=3 the story came out about how this puppy ended up in this condition. The "owner" had her tied to her front porch, walked past this puppy every day ignoring the puppy's dwindling skeletal condition. Every bone could be seen on this little girl. Thankfully she was rescued before she succumbed and has made great strides in putting on weight. So no, some people are not doing the best they can, they frankly just don't give a sh*t. Some are just plain evil and do not deserve to breath the O2 on this earth, some go above and beyond "the best they can" in so many ways https://www.thedodo.com/cop-sleeps-resc ... 76697.html.

It is not just with animals, I also see it with children. So often they fall through the cracks and are not protected in this life, many times at the hands of those who brought them on this earth.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”


― Mahatma Gandhi

I would ad children to this quote, those who do not have a voice.

Heck, no. People do what's easiest and believe what's convenient.

In general, I would say "no".

In your life trajectory (education, career choices, etc), I don't think it matters that much to society, and you can and should be able to get away with not doing your best ALL THE TIME.

But as a society, and as a citizen of the world, in actions that affect or might affect other living beings, you should absolutely always strive to do better. And to always have a critical mindset of self-analysis, to learn from others how to be better. Take the driving example. If you are a rude/bad/reckless driver, you are endangering yourself and possibly other people, and you should do better. If you cannot at the time understand how to do better, you should be made to understand, or your driving privilege revoked (yes yes, I know this is a pipe dream, but that's how I feel).

I think what we believe about others depends on whether we subscribe to the theory that the decisions a person makes are predetermined by their genetics and environment, or if we believe that everyone has free will and can weigh the options and choose.

The more I think about it the more I believe the former, which does not mean that people can't be pressured to make "better" decisions, but only that the decisions they made so far were the only ones they could have made given their circumstances at the time.

who determines what a persons "best" is?

who has that power or right

Rhianon wrote:Heck, no. People do what's easiest and believe what's convenient.

But is this not the best those kind of people can do? Most of the time I do believe people are doing the best they can do. Because they were not raised to do better.

Rhianon wrote:Heck, no. People do what's easiest and believe what's convenient.

So are you including yourself ?

Chisamba's question is kind of at the crux of how complex this question is for me.

I tend to think other people (especially if I don't know them) *are* doing the best they can, given the education/resources/tools/skills/experiences/health conditions/etc. that they have available. This is sort of my "educator's POV", where I do have hope that when people have access to skills, knowledge and support, they will make more positive choices. For me to hold on to hope for the world, I need to connect with this POV. Even when people drive like maniacs, I tend to think "wow, they really don't know that they almost killed themselves and me, too. I hope they are going to be okay (and that they put down the phone)."

However, more intimately, I am much harsher in my opinion of myself and people very close to me. Honestly, it is hard for me to look back and say that my family did the best they could with basic parenting tasks. I also am very hard on myself and usually think I could do better in my work, my relationships, my contributions to society, etc.

Chisamba wrote:No one wants to fail, people do not always have clear role models, I tend to err on the side of most people are doing the best they know how to do.

Edited to add, this possible excludes violent criminals

This is pretty interesting and insightful, imo.

Previously, I would have agreed that it seems many/most people do what they can get by with and call it their best. Now, I have a very good friend who was raised quite poor and suffered from a lot of abuse. He didn't have role models in the ways that we think, but he had some that helped him to survive. That's what he knows, how to survive, and anything beyond that is foreign. Doing your best in his world resulted in being taken advantage of, used, abused, etc. It was best to slide by, keep your head down, and hope to God no one noticed you, which meant, doing enough, but not enough to stand out.

I don't want it to sound like I'm trying to say that I'm doing oh so much to help this guy, but I think him being around me, my family, and friends is doing something to/for him. We've been talking about how to fix his finances (he's still pretty poor, but makes decent money for the area), so our first goal was for him to track where he is spending his money, list his bills, opening a bank account of some kind, and putting a little every week in savings. The first week, he showed up at my house very proud of himself, with a huge smile. He said, "Well, I'm broke, but I know where all of my money went. Electric bill paid on time for once (it was over $400).". I laughed way too much, then apologized and told him that was a good start.

Now, when I need a snake moved, my truck fixed, fence built, or horse fed, those are things this guy knows and he will take care of it. I have to be careful to give him guidelines though because in his world, fence being put up doesn't mean that it looks nice or that's it's necessarily safe and completely functional. It means it's cheap and has the possibility of maybe keeping something contained if you pray just right. He's learning though. I sometimes give him my debit card to pick up materials and he will often say, "I can do this for $$, but it would better if we did this, and it would cost $$$. Which would you prefer?". At first he would say it with his eyes looking away and head down like he was in trouble for speaking out, but he knows me better now and knows that I would rather spend the money to do things right the first time, not just do enough to get by.

Long way of saying, yes, I mostly agree with Chisamba.

Chisamba wrote:No one wants to fail, people do not always have clear role models, I tend to err on the side of most people are doing the best they know how to do.

I don't know that people set out to 'fail'. But, I still think that their 'best', whatever that is, is for the most part, still pretty self-centered anymore.

Maybe the role models for all these "me first" people are their parents who wanted their chlldrens' lives to be better than their parents?

I just see so many, IMO, rude people who seem to act like they are more important that the world around them or that they are entitled to things without potentially having to work for them. Not buying that rudeness and self-centeredness is the best someone can do because of a lack of role models given the number of people that I see like this.

Is everyone like this? NO. But a disappointing number of them are.

WheresMyWhite wrote:
I don't know that people set out to 'fail'. But, I still think that their 'best', whatever that is, is for the most part, still pretty self-centered anymore.

I think that's inevitable, because even those who appear to be giving unselfishly of themselves are so often behaving that way because they think that's their best chance of getting what they want.

I just see so many, IMO, rude people who seem to act like they are more important that the world around them or that they are entitled to things without potentially having to work for them.

I see just the opposite: very, very polite people who are confident that they really are superior to all the rude (uneducated, unmotivated) people they have to deal with. Not that the very, very polite people aren't pleasant enough to be around, but I can't see how they're any less self centered.

I think most people are doing the best they can at any particular time. Their best may be different from one situation to another, one day to another, depending on what they are dealing with in their lives at the moment.

Regardless of whether or not everyone is in fact doing the best they can, I tend to find it easier to be patient or positive if I tell myself they are. And that in turn improves my outlook, which makes me easier to work with for others, which just makes the whole day better.

I happen to know for a fact that I can do more. I put a lot of pressure on myself to improve in my (many) perceived areas of weakness. It's ironic that the step that helps me deal with other people does not apply to my view of myself, you lazy worthless sod.

Just kidding, but you get the point.

Ponichiwa wrote:Regardless of whether or not everyone is in fact doing the best they can, I tend to find it easier to be patient or positive if I tell myself they are. And that in turn improves my outlook, which makes me easier to work with for others, which just makes the whole day better.... It's ironic that the step that helps me deal with other people does not apply to my view of myself

Once again, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I find my life goes a lot better if I act like everyone is trying the best they can. It's not a pollyanna view at all, if that makes sense---it just gives me the energy to be hopeful, creative, and attempt to contribute towards the greater good.

I am trying to develop some skills in taking that patient, positive step with myself, but I am fairly crude and uneven in my performance. The Brown book is a good read on these challenges

Let me talk about myself. Yes,. Self centered. I cleaned my home this morning, it in now 1.30 ish and I am sitting searching Tennis on TV and reading the forum.

Could I have done better. Yes, there is more cleaning to do. So why did I stop. An observer could easily say I am lazy, or just doing enough to get by.

I think that having worked eight hours in Saturday, ten hours over night, Sat night,. Three hours at the barn on Sunday, ten hours overnight on Sunday night. Five hours at the barn, Monday, ten hours Monday night, overnight, eight hours at the barn on Tuesday, and a double shift, 16 hours overnight, then eight hours at the barn on Wed, that taking an hour or two to sit and do nothing thus afternoon is good enough.

That is my judgement , and my own guilt/ happiness balance is what counts . Yes also agree this is self centered. I still have to go shopping and I have lessons to teach this evening. I have a full day of riding and lessons tomorrow and Saturday my schedule starts all over again.

This Sunday is my day to volunteer , so I am not completely selfish.

Some of my choices could be considered a waste, riding is " just a hobby " many would consider it a frivolous pursuit. Why not be in a more worthwhile endeavor? How selfish to do what I love rather than be of service to humanity?

In fact, some might say I get my jollies enslaving animals.

Is this really the best I can do ?

Very subjective.

This is an interesting topic, and thanks for bringing it up. I'll look into the Brown book because I've been kicking this idea around for a while.

kande50 wrote:I think what we believe about others depends on whether we subscribe to the theory that the decisions a person makes are predetermined by their genetics and environment, or if we believe that everyone has free will and can weigh the options and choose.

The more I think about it the more I believe the former, which does not mean that people can't be pressured to make "better" decisions, but only that the decisions they made so far were the only ones they could have made given their circumstances at the time.

Chisamba wrote:No one wants to fail, people do not always have clear role models, I tend to err on the side of most people are doing the best they know how to do.

Edited to add, this possible excludes violent criminals

There's a pretty interesting book called The Anatomy of Violence that explores the degree of choice we have and is pretty interesting in probing the biology vs. autonomy argument (specific to violent crimes). Highly recommend it.

As far as people on the "normal" spectrum go, though, I think there's lots of choice. We clearly can't all choose to be president or Mensa candidates or whatever, but we can generally choose to work hard vs. take advantage of others.

Ponichiwa wrote:we can generally choose to work hard vs. take advantage of others.

I'm pretty sure that some think they are working hard but the cards are stacked against them, so they have no chance of ever being able to work hard enough to be "successful". And the cards may very well be stacked against them because of what they believe, which may have a lot to do with their environment (the examples that shaped their behavior and beliefs).

The choices that people make is interesting though, and especially the really strange ones like signing up for a $200/month cable TV bill and then worrying about finding enough money to pay the rent, or fix the car to get to work, or buy food.

It's probably also worth pointing out that this debate is, mainly, semantics. What's "best" for me may not be best for society at large (or vice versa), and generally all life is geared towards forwarding their own self interest.

Regardless, I've found the re-framing of my perception of people's intentions to be helpful in my own mental well-being.

Ponichiwa wrote:Regardless of whether or not everyone is in fact doing the best they can, I tend to find it easier to be patient or positive if I tell myself they are.

I'll hold this thought next time someone cuts me off while I'm driving or walks through a door with a handicap button in front of me (after I've pushed the button so I can walk through it).

Sorry, but not buying that they really believe they are doing the best they can unless it is because they are obviously more important than I am.

WheresMyWhite wrote:Sorry, but not buying that they really believe they are doing the best they can unless it is because they are obviously more important than I am.

WmW, this is actually a phrase I used to settle myself down "Wow, they are very busy and important!" Then I try to feel a little compassion for how hard their lives must be given how they are dealing with a small situation. As my amazing DH reminds me when I get cranky about these situations, "Do you want their life?" Given that my answer is always "Hell, no!", a little compassion and generosity is an easy thing for me to spot to other people.

p.s. My DH and I also use the "busy and important" phrase when either of us senses we are being ridiculous and stressed and pulled in ultimately unimportant directions....as in "How are you?" "Very busy and important!"

Some are doing the best they can, others are doing the best they believe they can, and the third group are doing the best that they want to.

It is not always clear who belongs to which group.

I don't know about other people. Walk a mile in their shoes and all that.

But I observe in my own life that there are things I focus on with great concentration, will and determination. I can honestly say about those things that I do the best I can. There are other things in life that are just getting from point A to point B, and I am not doing that the "best" that I can, whatever that might mean. I have limited hours in the day, and limited powers of concentration, strength and guts.

I figure I'm probably not so different from the vast array of "other people".

piedmontfields wrote:WmW, this is actually a phrase I used to settle myself down "Wow, they are very busy and important!" Then I try to feel a little compassion for how hard their lives must be given how they are dealing with a small situation

Guess we are going to have to disagree then

When I see rude behavior because people think they are far more important and busy than those around them, I have no compassion for how "hard" their life must be. Nothing in life is that important that waiting a few seconds (5 seconds is such a short amount of time to wait, really) will make a difference. Feels to me like just an excuse and enabling rude behavior. I understand compassion and feel that I have it when appropriate but being rude isn't, for me, in that category.

On what I would agree is that I sure don't want their life

WheresMyWhite wrote:
When I see rude behavior because people think they are far more important and busy than those around them

We can't know what's going through their heads, though. For all we know they're not even thinking about their effect on anyone else because they're far too focused on what they need for themselves.

I asked a coworker what he was thinking when he persisted in driving into the parking lot way too fast and his answer was that he had to drive fast or he was going to be late for work. When I asked why he didn't just the house earlier he said that he tried to do that, but could never seem to get out of the house on time. When I persisted and asked him why, he said he'd get started on a project and just couldn't leave it until it was late enough so that he had to tear himself away.

So the root cause could have been self indulgence, or it could have been ocd?

Other times I've asked and had people tell me they weren't driving fast, didn't cut anyone off, and others were just trying to shift the blame to them because they didn't know how to drive.

Warped perspective or self absorbed?

Ponichiwa wrote:I happen to know for a fact that I can do more. I put a lot of pressure on myself to improve in my (many) perceived areas of weakness. It's ironic that the step that helps me deal with other people does not apply to my view of myself, you lazy worthless sod.

Just kidding, but you get the point.

There is a difference between "doing the best you can" and "being the best you can be."

I think you could drive yourself into an early grave by trying to "be the best you can be" in every aspect of your life.

Moutaineer wrote:



I think you could drive yourself into an early grave by trying to "be the best you can be" in every aspect of your life.

It sounds very tiring.

This is a hard thread for me to comment on because to give a proper response requires quite a bit of thought. I just can't try that hard

I will try to get back to this.

The thing is each person can only speak of their own experiences so each answer is as different as each individual. Now if you want to know my answer to "Are people doing the best they can?" you will have to ask me because I do have thoughts on this topic.

I do tell myself that "people are doing the best they can" "you never know what burden someone is carrying" etc. to try to keep calm and continue to work for the higher good. But in only a few cases do I truly believe it.

The reality is that I am routinely stunned by how many people do and believe what is most convenient for them, are focused on their own immediate gratification, and take the easy way out with no consideration of priorities or how it affects others. Even in life-and-death situations.

Rhianon wrote:The reality is that I am routinely stunned by how many people do and believe what is most convenient for them, are focused on their own immediate gratification, and take the easy way out with no consideration of priorities or how it affects others. Even in life-and-death situations.

This yes. And often I don't really even ask myself if I think they are doing the best they can. I just think above and wonder where society got to this point

It's a question of for whom they are doing the best they can, really. Society as a whole, or just for themselves? I agree with Rhianon that a whole lot of the latter goes on.

WheresMyWhite wrote:

Rhianon wrote:The reality is that I am routinely stunned by how many people do and believe what is most convenient for them, are focused on their own immediate gratification, and take the easy way out with no consideration of priorities or how it affects others. Even in life-and-death situations.

This yes. And often I don't really even ask myself if I think they are doing the best they can. I just think above and wonder where society got to this point

I'm not stunned by it anymore. I'm just resigned that this is the way it is.

Rockabilly wrote:I'm not stunned by it anymore. I'm just resigned that this is the way it is.

I used to subscribe to the "draw and quarter them" school of thought because I believed that people had plenty of choices and just chose bad ones, but now I'm more interested in why people make the choices they make, because I'm no longer as convinced that people have as much free will as I used to think they did.

Just the difference between the way my brain works now that I'm older vs the way it worked when I was young lends a lot of credence to the theory that choices are predetermined by genetics and environment. IOW, if I had felt back then the way I feel now (tired and unmotivated, but content) would I have made the same choices I made when I was more energetic, competitive, and dissatisfied?

Am I doing the "Best I can?" No. FU if you think I should work harder and be more successful. At this point, the "best I can do" is give less of a shit about whether I'm "successful" and care more about not feeling guilty for just sitting down to do "nothing." No my house isn't clean. Life is definitely too short to care whether anyone else is "doing the best they can." I accept that people are different and do different things for different reasons. Releasing expectation goes a long way.

Suzon, you raise an interesting perspective.

To me, I am personally not going to judge you or anyone else on how hard you work or how successful you are (short of not making any attempt to work at all, ever). If you work hard during the week and need a weekend to chill and relax, that to me has nothing to do with your 'best'.

How I've been interpreting this 'doing their best' is more relating to politeness, courtesy, etc; no how hard someone busts their behind

Rhianon wrote:
The reality is that I am routinely stunned by how many people do and believe what is most convenient for them, are focused on their own immediate gratification, and take the easy way out with no consideration of priorities or how it affects others..

Isn't there a flip side to this, though? The realization that most other people really don't know or care about what g-you are doing? I mean, some folks are so self-conscious about 'what other people think', and it seems to me that 'what other people think' is something about themselves, and not about us at all. Which means we need not feel any particular pressure from this 'what other people think' stuff anymore, and we can just keep on keeping on.

It's not easy to get to the point where we don't care about what others think and/or can control out urge to judge others. I guess it's like straightness in that we can work on it, improve it, but can never truly achieve it.

I'm thinking that getting and staying focused on a goal or passion is probably the closest we can get to not caring what others think, and/or not caring whether we're doing better than they are. And then, when we come up for air (between projects) we can beat ourselves up for being so self centered.

See I don't think that way boots, I feel all (for the most part) deserve my respect unless otherwise proven that they do not. but I am southern born and bred, raised to wave at passerby's, hold the door for those who need it, say please and thank you and all the social niceties that can make a day run smoother.

I can understand about being in a hurry and being an aggressive driver (raise hand I have been there too) but do not in your hurry to get somewhere put myself or my family in danger. Other people on the road is what scares me the most with my DS soon to be driving!

I do not care about how someone else keeps their house or how long or short they work. If I hire someone I do want the job done in a timely manner and done in the way agreed upon by both parties.

boots-aregard wrote:

Rhianon wrote:
The reality is that I am routinely stunned by how many people do and believe what is most convenient for them, are focused on their own immediate gratification, and take the easy way out with no consideration of priorities or how it affects others..

Isn't there a flip side to this, though? The realization that most other people really don't know or care about what g-you are doing? I mean, some folks are so self-conscious about 'what other people think', and it seems to me that 'what other people think' is something about themselves, and not about us at all. Which means we need not feel any particular pressure from this 'what other people think' stuff anymore, and we can just keep on keeping on.

If only I'd known this as a teenager, I could have saved myself a serious amount of angst.

Perhaps a spinoff, but I do think it's interesting that the world seems to follow generational-length cycles. Fashion, politics, etc. I think it's got something to do with how long it takes to learn things, like how the world works or that really, nobody cares about how I look on a horse but me (even at dressage shows).

This isn't to say that in a society, nobody has impact on anyone else. Just that if we're all caught up in ourselves, not very many people are worried about others. That's pretty liberating for me, who is constantly self-critical.

Ponichiwa wrote:This isn't to say that in a society, nobody has impact on anyone else. Just that if we're all caught up in ourselves, not very many people are worried about others. That's pretty liberating for me, who is constantly self-critical.

I keep trying to quell my unpleasant memories of the stupid, embarrassing things I've done by reminding myself that I'm probably the only one who remembers them, but for some reason that doesn't help because my brain insists on bringing them up over and over again so that I can squirm some more.

I look at self-criticism, in all its many forms, as a serotonin problem, and as soon as I can make more serotonin I won't care, anymore.

boots-aregard wrote:

Rhianon wrote:
The reality is that I am routinely stunned by how many people do and believe what is most convenient for them, are focused on their own immediate gratification, and take the easy way out with no consideration of priorities or how it affects others..

Isn't there a flip side to this, though? The realization that most other people really don't know or care about what g-you are doing? I mean, some folks are so self-conscious about 'what other people think', and it seems to me that 'what other people think' is something about themselves, and not about us at all. Which means we need not feel any particular pressure from this 'what other people think' stuff anymore, and we can just keep on keeping on.

Hmmm. Not sure how this is related. It's not about what people think of me--I don't care what others think of me, and feel zero pressure to behave in a certain way. I care about how people treat the creatures (human or other) that depend on them for their care. And I am mystified by the total lack of empathy.

The last time someone said to me "I'm doing the best I can" was a person who had let her goat starve to death, had left her dog unattended in a crate for three days, and would have left her horses with out food or water for same length of time had I not noticed and cared for them. Her excuse? Her life was a mess because her husband had found out she was having an affair.

Deleting accidental duplicate.

Rhianon wrote:
The last time someone said to me "I'm doing the best I can" was a person who had let her goat starve to death,

I know a lot of people who hunt for sport, and will kill just about any animal not because they want to eat it, or because the animal is bothering them, but apparently, because they like to kill animals.

Things are changing though, because just recently there was a news story about some porcupines that had been killed in this area, and a lot of people weren't happy about it. Porcupines are classified as nuisance animals so there was nothing anyone could do about it, but there was talk about getting the laws changed.

Rhianon, I am right there with you. I do see some people though that go above and beyond to be what I consider to be good people, those that are helpful to others, think of other beings besides themselves, just in general good people. That gives me hope when I see so many who don't care or who are out right evil.

kande50 wrote:I know a lot of people who hunt for sport, and will kill just about any animal not because they want to eat it, or because the animal is bothering them, but apparently, because they like to kill animals.

While I'm not big on sport hunting, for the most part (not always), the animals killed usually die a fairly fast death. More than I can say for that goat.

Having said that, not sure what sport hunting has to do with the best someone can