The Gorilla Story

[Chancellor]

I was driving to work this morning and on the radio they were discussing the gorilla story. You know the one. Where a 3-4 yo child climbed into a gorilla pen ?
The DJs and this woman on the phone were discussing it. The Djs were saying "The Gorilla was trying to help the boy" and "I don't think he was trying to hurt it".
Do they REALLY think they know more about the gorillas than those who made the decision to shoot the gorilla vs tranquilize it? If that boy had been killed waiting for the tranquilizer to take effect on a gorilla, would these same people being saying "Why didn't they shoot it?"

It's a DAMNED shame that this three year old child was not well enough supervised to have prevented this accident. But, don't second guess the zookeepers who obviously had to make a tough tough decision.

[amygdala]

i have no opinipn on the shooting-- but
1. that zoo needs to upgrade its fencing
2. the screaming onlookers made the situation worse--
zoo needs to improve its crowd control poicies

[Niki]

Theres been some interesting behavioural articles printed here by apparently well qualified zoologists (i assume thry are...havent checked) that explain the gorillas behaviour. All ive read said state the behaviour was not threatening to the child. Yes that could change in an instant and i agree on all 3 points that the parents, fencing and spectator screaming were all major factors.

I do find it odd tho theat the keepers carry guns/have acess so quickly to them. With my job ive had to go behind the scenes at my local zoo and know they dont have that kind of acess...tranq guns by vets yes but not actual firearms. But then ive also not seen a zoo with that had such limited fencing etc.

[Woost2]

It wasn't apparently threatening to the child until the screaming caused the gorilla to yank and drag the kid through water by the leg and then out of sight. The simple size differential made interaction a threat. Think Chihuahua puppy and adult Great Dane.

Don't know about zoo policy on weapons, but the emergency response team probably trains for these scenarios.

People with fingers to type screeds but no knowledge or common sense or apparent ability to google to inform themselves make me crazy.

[Chisamba]

I disagree with you Chancellor. If it were a pit bull, what would you say? If it wanted to hurt the child, the child would be dead,. He was in with the gorilla for ten minutes and had no major injuries, except those acquired during the fall., was released the next day, and no, God did not save the child, the gorilla did not hurt it.

Itv should be understood, by everyone, if you fall, climb walk, jump or in any way get into an enclosure of an animal,. The animal will not be shot to save you. It should just be understood.

That gorilla was being a better parent than the parent was,. He was killed for it and the parent will not even be charged.

The zoo response team acted the way they did to avoid a lawsuit, not because they were evaluating animal behavior.

[Chancellor]

I disagree with you Chancellor. If it were a pit bull, what would you say? If it wanted to hurt the child, the child would be dead,. He was in with the gorilla for ten minutes and had no major injuries, except those acquired during the fall., was released the next day, and no, God did not save the child, the gorilla did not hurt it.

Itv should be understood, by everyone, if you fall, climb walk, jump or in any way get into an enclosure of an animal,. The animal will not be shot to save you. It should just be understood.

That gorilla was being a better parent than the parent was,. He was killed for it and the parent will not even be charged.

The zoo response team acted the way they did to avoid a lawsuit, not because they were evaluating animal behavior.

I think you misunderstood me Chisamba. I am not saying that the zookeepers were right for shooting the gorilla. I am saying that people who know more about the gorillas should be making the decisions not people who only saw the video.
I WISH the gorilla had not been shot. Moreover, I wish the parent was watching their child.
BUT, because the child was in the enclosure, it should be left to the experts to decide what is correct to have been done and yes, it could very well have been to avoid a lawsuit. Unfortunately, we live in a VERY litigious society.

The bottom line is that the PARENT should have been watching the child.

And you can hardly compare a pit bull (a companion animal) with a gorilla no matter HOW long it has spent in captivity. The size difference alone between the child and the gorilla was an issue.

[Literiding]

From the video and my long ago days studying anthropology, I think the male silver back gorilla was “protecting” the child. That the child was still alive is proof enough of the gorilla’s lack of malice towards the child. But that could have changed at any moment. Even though the gorilla had no malice, the child would be in immediate danger injury or death from the gorilla’s lack of care in handling the child. Even if enough time had been available, the outcome would be still fatal for the gorilla. The gorilla had established a “mine” relationship with the child and probably would have not surrendered the child to the keepers under any circumstance other than the gorilla’s death. So the outcome was pretty much fixed from the moment the child came to the attention of the gorilla.

The English child of several years who fell into the gorilla’s enclosure was a much different situation. The big “alpha” Silverback seems to have worked through the options and realized that the injured child wouldn’t be rescued as long as the gorillas were out in the yard. The big Silverback gathered up all the other gorillas but one and took them back inside the Primate House where the keepers locked them up. The remaining male wasn’t fully aged yet (not yet a Silverback) and was alone. So when facing several humans, the gorilla was uncertain and a human with more courage than sense was able to intimidate him until the EMTs removed the child.

The zoo was deficient in the care of their primate collection. The enclosure wasn’t child proof, they had no incident plan, and no one seemed to be in charge to make the decisions needed. It devolved to decisions by committee. The fact there was no attempt to clear the “non-participants” from the scene of the incident made any possibility of working with gorilla impossible. The gorilla was pressured by the proximity of the crowd into his behaviors to protect his new possession making the tranquilizer option unusable.

[Cookie]

I think absolutely this gorilla's behavior was threatening to the child, and I believe as tragic as it is, the zookeepers were correct to shoot the gorilla.

I don't know if the mother was at fault. An onlooker made a statement that the mother was attentive to her child but had other children with her, and the child crawling into the enclosure and then falling happened in a matter of seconds. My initial reaction was that it was the parents fault, but now i'm not sure. It does sound like the crowd screaming didn't help either, but unsure whether it would have affected the outcome.

Sometimes these things are just accidents. Sometimes it's a parents fault. I just don't know in this case, but I absolutely think under the circumstances the zoo officials made the right decision.

[khall]

I too feel killing the silver back was really the only option once the child was in the enclosure and in the immediate vicinity of the male gorilla. I hate that it had to happen that way but a 3-4 yr old child was in danger. I have no information on the enclosure or how attentive or not the mother was. I do have a DS and yes they can disappear very quickly even with the most attentive of parents. My DS was almost washed out to sea on the Big Island, we were at the beach and the water dropped off more quickly than I thought and the current was taking him out. He was in the water and out too deep before I was able to catch up to him, hard as I tried. Thankfully there was a man that was able to grab him as he went by. Just like horses, things can happen quickly with children, before we can blink.

[Hayburner]

Just a sad situation all around.

IMHO. The zoo was damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

You can have the best fencing/security in place, and yet something can still go terribly wrong.

As for the mother, yes, she wasn't controlling her kid, but little ones are quick and she had a few in her care

Could they have tried a tranquilizer first? Then shot if things got worse?

[Racetrackreject]

I agree, it's a horrible situation, and I'm sad that the gorilla had to pay the price. But, I think it was the choice that had to be made. Even if the gorilla didn't mean to injure the child, he could have easily, just by accident. Even tranqing the gorilla posed a danger to both beings because who's to say that gorilla would not have gone down on the child, or taken himself and the child both into the water and drowned them both.

I'm not so quick to let the mom off and I'm sure that's not well-received by most, especially since I am not a mother.

Are children fast? Yes. Is it hard to keep an eye on them 24/7? Yes. Is that what you signed up for when you became a parent? Yes. If there are multiple children, then maybe you need multiple adults to help watch them. I don't get the whole "it's impossible to always keep an eye on them", that's your job, your most important job as a parent.

Khall, I see your situation as different because you knew where your child was and had eyes on him. Per the account of the couple who first saw the child go over, this mother didn't know where the kid was at all. After the child fell, she asked if the kid that went over had on green shorts and that's how she found out where her child was.

Just so sad.

[Suzon]

The male gorilla was showing signs of agitation thrashing the kid around...that's what gorillas do to intimidate threats. They bang on stuff and thrash things around. If they had tranquilized him in the water he could have drown, or fallen on the child and drown him. It was a bad situation. Shit happens. I guess now barriers will need to be 15 feet high to comply (I have no idea how high the barrier the kid climbed over was).

[Code3]

It is tragic and heart wrenching, but I support the decision by the response team for all the reasons Suzon and others have stated.

[angela9823]

This is such a tough one. As a mother, I completely understand how quickly children disappear even right in front of your eyes. I saw another zoologist's report on this about how a 400lb male gorilla is stronger than 10 human beings. I also saw the video of the gorilla dragging the child through the water, backwards and with huge amounts of force and speed. At the wrong moment, that kind of pull through the water could have drown the child. I just can't value the life of the gorilla over that of a child. I just keep imagining if that were my child. It doesn't matter what we believe the gorilla was doing or that maybe he was protecting the child. There were too many instances already of rough handling and dragging through the water. The gorilla was given the opportunity to get back in the cage as well.

I think they made the right decision. It isn't the gorilla's fault. No, the mother was not watching the child and she may be partially to blame. But do we let a three year old possibly suffer as a result of that momentary lapse in a parent's judgement? Zoos are supposed to be safe places for humans and animals alike. There should have been a taller glass/plexi fence in front of the enclosure. I understand they are trying to make zoos more human friendly. However, they have to understand too there are many young children that attend the zoos and many get lost - probably on a daily basis. Safety should have been a priority.

The same zoologist I discussed earlier said what a danger that gorilla would have been during the time it took to tranq him. He could have fallen on the child and drown the two of them. He could have become enraged (I've seen a horse do it!) and torn the child apart in a matter of seconds. I just don't see any other way. It is a shame it happened.

[orono]

I saw the fence in question in a video clip of the story, it is akin to a low 3 rail fence but made of metal bars. VERY easy for a child to slip through or climb over. I'm very sad about the gorillas death, and wish that tranq'ing had been a viable option. I think that if the had intended to harm the child he would have by the time he was shot. That doesn't mean that the child wasn't still in danger based on the sheer size difference between the 2.

I found this computer generated image, not sure why i can't find an actual one...
http://static-30.sinclairstoryline.com/ ... 4706605106

[hoopoe]

https://www.facebook.com/amanda.odonoug ... 9586363094

this is a thoughtful Facebook post from a former great Apes keeper. She discusses the animals behavior

[myleetlepony]

I don't know if the mother was at fault. An onlooker made a statement that the mother was attentive to her child but had other children with her, and the child crawling into the enclosure and then falling happened in a matter of seconds.

Hmm, now I've heard multiple reports that the mother was busy taking selfies while the child climbed through.

I can understand *why* the zoo did what they did, but it's a horrible situation all the way around. I think both the zoo and the parent are at fault here, especially when the mother runs a daycare, therefore should be held to a bit higher standard.

Lastly, I heard reports that people reported hearing the child adamantly telling his mother that he wanted to go down by the gorillas. That in itself should have prompted mom to either have a death grip on that child or be restraining him in some way. I can't for the life of me believe that this is the first time this child has disobeyed not to do something or had run off to do something he was told he couldn't.

I'm all for electric fencing around dangerous animal exhibits to restrain people.

[Hayburner]

Not that it really matters, but how many children did this woman have with her?

If nothing else, I pray she learned a valuable lesson from this tragic for all experience.

[Rhianon]

I think zoos are sick and stupid and I'm not surprised that yet another creature has paid the price for human vanity and stupidity.

[Chisamba]

I think zoos are sick and stupid and I'm not surprised that yet another creature has paid the price for human vanity and stupidity.

Some one had been drinking the cool and. As is clear the zoo exhibit was very beautiful with trees, water and structures mimicking their natural environment. Zoos are book longer caged areas with animals in boxes .

They have important functions ,. Breeding and preserving rear and endangered species, educating otherwise ignorant humans as to why preservation efforts are necessary, amount other things.

In good Zoos the animals are kept in more natural environment than most of you horses and dogs.

Or we could be really sick, like David Aspinell, and kick there zoo raised gorillas out and have them be killed the next day. Hey they had one day of freedom,. I'm sure they appreciated it. ,my voice is dripping with sarcasm .

[fergusnc]

I saw this post shared on FB and I found it very helpful for my understanding…I adore animals, respect animals, have high expectations for humans who are around animals, but have nothing beyond awe for the types of animals that live in zoos…no skills, no experiences, not even much book knowledge. So to read from someone who does, it helps remind me of just how much I do not know.

Begin copied post from FB…long but was a good read (to me). It accompanied a photo of her squatting in a very quiet pose, no contact, no posing, outside a very sturdy-looking metal fence directly across from a male silverback gorilla.
----------

Amanda O'Donoughue
May 30 at 9:25pm ·
I am going to try to clear up a few things that have been weighing on me about Harambe and the Cinci Zoo since I read the news this afternoon.
I have worked with Gorillas as a zookeeper while in my twenties (before children) and they are my favorite animal (out of dozens) that I have ever worked closely with. I am gonna go ahead and list a few facts, thoughts and opinions for those of you that aren't familiar with the species itself, or how a zoo operates in emergency situations.

Now Gorillas are considered 'gentle giants' at least when compared with their more aggressive cousins the chimpanzee, but a 400+ pound male in his prime is as strong as roughly 10 adult humans. What can you bench press? OK, now multiply that number by ten. An adult male silverback gorilla has one job, to protect his group. He does this by bluffing or intimidating anything that he feels threatened by.

Gorillas are considered a Class 1 mammal, the most dangerous class of mammals in the animal kingdom, again, merely due to their size and strength. They are grouped in with other apes, tigers, lions, bears, etc.
While working in an AZA accredited zoo with Apes, keepers DO NOT work in contact with them. Meaning they do NOT go in with these animals. There is always a welded mesh barrier between the animal and the humans.
In more recent decades, zoos have begun to redesign enclosures, removing all obvious caging and attempting to create a seamless view of the animals for the visitor to enjoy watching animals in a more natural looking habitat. *this is great until little children begin falling into exhibits* which of course can happen to anyone, especially in a crowded zoo-like setting.

I have watched this video over again, and with the silverback's postering, and tight lips, it's pretty much the stuff of any keeper's nightmares, and I have had MANY while working with them. This job is not for the complacent. Gorillas are kind, curious, and sometimes silly, but they are also very large, very strong animals. I always brought my OCD to work with me. checking and rechecking locks to make sure my animals and I remained separated before entering to clean.

I keep hearing that the Gorilla was trying to protect the boy. I do not find this to be true. Harambe reaches for the boys hands and arms, but only to position the child better for his own displaying purposes.
Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about. Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible. Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate. It was clear to me that he was reacting to the screams coming from the gathering crowd.

Harambe was most likely not going to separate himself from that child without seriously hurting him first (again due to mere size and strength, not malicious intent) Why didn't they use treats? well, they attempted to call them off exhibit (which animals hate), the females in the group came in, but Harambe did not. What better treat for a captive animal than a real live kid!
They didn't use Tranquilizers for a few reasons, A. Harambe would've taken too long to become immobilized, and could have really injured the child in the process as the drugs used may not work quickly enough depending on the stress of the situation and the dose B. Harambe would've have drowned in the moat if immobilized in the water, and possibly fallen on the boy trapping him and drowning him as well.
Many zoos have the protocol to call on their expertly trained dart team in the event of an animal escape or in the event that a human is trapped with a dangerous animal. They will evaluate the scene as quickly and as safely as possible, and will make the most informed decision as how they will handle the animal.
I can't point fingers at anyone in this situation, but we need to really evaluate the safety of the animal enclosures from the visitor side. Not impeding that view is a tough one, but there should be no way that someone can find themselves inside of an animal's exhibit.
I know one thing for sure, those keepers lost a beautiful, and I mean gorgeous silverback and friend. I feel their loss with them this week. As educators and conservators of endangered species, all we can do is shine a light on the beauty and majesty of these animals in hopes to spark a love and a need to keep them from vanishing from our planet. Child killers, they are not. It's unfortunate for the conservation of the species, and the loss of revenue a beautiful zoo such as Cinci will lose. tragedy all around.

*me working (very carefully) with a 400+ pound silverback circa 2009

[KathyK]

Jane Goodall, who is widely recognized as one of the most renowned primate experts in the world, sees it differently:

“I tried to see exactly what was happening—it looked as though the gorilla was putting an arm round the child—like the female who rescued and returned the child from the Chicago exhibit,” she wrote, according to the correspondence the Jane Goodall Institute made public. Goodall may have been referring to the 1996 incident at the Brookfield Zoo in Illinois in which a female gorilla carried a boy to safety after he fell into her pit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jane-goodall ... soc_trk=fb

[Racetrackreject]

Jane Goodall, who is widely recognized as one of the most renowned primate experts in the world, sees it differently:

“I tried to see exactly what was happening—it looked as though the gorilla was putting an arm round the child—like the female who rescued and returned the child from the Chicago exhibit,” she wrote, according to the correspondence the Jane Goodall Institute made public. Goodall may have been referring to the 1996 incident at the Brookfield Zoo in Illinois in which a female gorilla carried a boy to safety after he fell into her pit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jane-goodall ... soc_trk=fb

I just saw that this previous incident was being brought up too. There are 2 major differences that I can see though. 1. this was a silverback, not a female gorilla and 2. the crowd screaming had already fired this guy up and got him acting defensive and territorial. I don't know if either of those things makes a huge difference, but I can see how the 2 incidents are different because of those 2 factors alone.

I read that the mom had 4-5 children with her. She also is the administrator over a day care...

[Koolkat]

No mention of the use of psychotropic drugs to keep animals "zoo friendly". . . (SeaWorld also used them on their orcas).

The Cincinnati's breeding program is for producing animals for captivity, perhaps they should work on selectively breeding animals which don't require drugs to keep them "quiet" and "crowd pleasing" in captivity. Surely we can do better than this. If all the monies and effort went into preserving habitat for endangered species, the world would most certainly be a better place for all of us. They're the canaries in the coal mines in this regard.

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/animal-mad ... -braitman/
http://www.toledoblade.com/frontpage/20 ... imals.html

[Chancellor]

Jane Goodall, who is widely recognized as one of the most renowned primate experts in the world, sees it differently:

“I tried to see exactly what was happening—it looked as though the gorilla was putting an arm round the child—like the female who rescued and returned the child from the Chicago exhibit,” she wrote, according to the correspondence the Jane Goodall Institute made public. Goodall may have been referring to the 1996 incident at the Brookfield Zoo in Illinois in which a female gorilla carried a boy to safety after he fell into her pit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jane-goodall ... soc_trk=fb

It is REALLY unfair for her to be saying anything. She was not there. Is she simply commenting on the short videos we have seen? Because, well, dragging that kid through the water certainly didn't look like anything pleasant!

Of course, I am ALSO being an armchair quarterback too. I just don't think it is fair for ANYONE to be commenting when they have 20/20 hindsight

[Tarlo Farm]

A terrible, terrible situation all around. If the mother was taking selfies, she should be charged with child endangerment. The screaming definitely agitated the gorilla. In light of the size and mass of the gorilla and the lack of size and mass of the boy, they probably made the right decision. Harambe could have hurt the boy even while trying to "help" him. Such a shame.

[myleetlepony]

And heard on the radio this morning....police are reopening an investigation of the incident to determine any endangerment or neglect of the child.

I'm wondering what cell phone pictures and videos are out there that the media doesn't know about because people were smart enough to go to the police and not the media. I suspect there are also zoo CCTV cameras.

So now that begs the question, if the mom was found guilty of endangerment or neglect of the child, should she also be held financially liable for the gorilla's death?

[WheresMyWhite]

perhaps they should work on selectively breeding animals which don't require drugs to keep them "quiet" and "crowd pleasing" in captivity.

The goal is not breeding quiet or crowd pleasing animals. The goal is the sustainability of the species. Breeding is based on genetic preservation and diversity. (IMO, as it should be.)

Surely we can do better than this. If all the monies and effort went into preserving habitat for endangered species, the world would most certainly be a better place for all of us.

While, on the surface, I agree with you it really only makes sense to spend all that $$ on preserving habitat, where is the ever increasing population supposed to live or produce things to eat???

Before throwing zoos (and aquariums) under the bus, I'd recommend you spend some time on the AZA ( http://www.aza.org) web page to learn more about what a zoo or aquarium must do to be accredited. Are zoos and aquariums perfect? No, but AZA is certainly a good start in species sustainability and working toward establishing better habitats for animals that are zoo/aquarium residents.

I personally will not patronize a zoo or aquarium who isn't AZA accredited.

[WheresMyWhite]

And heard on the radio this morning....police are reopening an investigation of the incident to determine any endangerment or neglect of the child.

I thought LE was looking both at the mother as well as the zoo to evaluate the safety of the enclosure.

[Alex]

I've watched the video about 10 times now. What struck me is that the silverback was initially rather quiet in his approach to the little boy. Only when the vocalizations from the chattering onlookers became joltingly louder did the silverback get stirred into inappropriate actions toward the boy which, naturally, made the ALARMED VOCALIZATIONS from the watching humans get ever more frantic and outrageous. Screaming around upset animals is NO WAY to calm down a situation.

I agree the keepers had very little choice ultimately. Most of the interaction between the young boy and the gorilla took place within the confines of the CONCRETE MOAT. All the gorilla would have had to do was swing the child the wrong way once against the CONCRETE MOAT or the EXHIBIT WALLS at high velocity and his head would have been MUSH. The gorilla could also have inadvertently drowned the boy by dragging him continuously around the moat either by having him hit his head and then ingesting the water or some other way. But the gorilla did look like he was peacefully exploring this child off and on and that the child could have eventually have been saved other than by shooting the gorilla. But several things needed to be done before the keepers would have had an opportunity to attempt to interact w/the gorilla and secure the child from Harambe. First, ALL THE ONLOOKERS would have had to be ushered away so that any interaction w/Harambe would have been conducted in peace and quiet. Second, the keepers would have had to quietly use whatever TRIGGERS they used to redirect the animals to come into their night cages. At that point, it might have been clear if Harambe could be persuaded to trade the child to the keepers.

Those fences were adequate to keep that exhibit safe from penetration by the public for over 30 years. What is it about parenting these days that parents don't have STRICT CONTROL OVER THEIR CHILDREN in HIGH DANGER SITUATIONS? My recommendations for all zoos is that parents bringing young children into the zoo be made to have them TETHERED TO THE PARENTS w/ENGLISH CHILD LEASHES. If you're not going to watch your child then put the kid on a leash.

[KathyK]

Jane Goodall, who is widely recognized as one of the most renowned primate experts in the world, sees it differently:

“I tried to see exactly what was happening—it looked as though the gorilla was putting an arm round the child—like the female who rescued and returned the child from the Chicago exhibit,” she wrote, according to the correspondence the Jane Goodall Institute made public. Goodall may have been referring to the 1996 incident at the Brookfield Zoo in Illinois in which a female gorilla carried a boy to safety after he fell into her pit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jane-goodall ... soc_trk=fb

It is REALLY unfair for her to be saying anything. She was not there. Is she simply commenting on the short videos we have seen? Because, well, dragging that kid through the water certainly didn't look like anything pleasant!

Of course, I am ALSO being an armchair quarterback too. I just don't think it is fair for ANYONE to be commenting when they have 20/20 hindsight

In your original post you wrote:

The DJs and this woman on the phone were discussing it. The Djs were saying "The Gorilla was trying to help the boy" and "I don't think he was trying to hurt it".
Do they REALLY think they know more about the gorillas than those who made the decision to shoot the gorilla vs tranquilize it?

I think Jane Goodall likely knows more than those zookeepers about gorilla behavior. You're right, she wasn't there, but you cannot dispute her status as one of the (if not THE) foremost experts in the world. You went on to write:

If that boy had been killed waiting for the tranquilizer to take effect on a gorilla, would these same people being saying "Why didn't they shoot it?"

Yes, I'm pretty sure they would have changed their tune.

[Alex]

I agree w/the electric fencing to DISSUADE PEOPLE from getting into exhibits!!! Between the weird suicides and the people who think they're dog's gift to human-animal interaction and the overly assertive and inquisitive folks like this little boy, people need to know the limits the zoos are putting on their interaction. One NICE ZAP from an electric fence and those stupid humans won't be trying any more stupid pet trick at these zoos!
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't know if the mother was at fault. An onlooker made a statement that the mother was attentive to her child but had other children with her, and the child crawling into the enclosure and then falling happened in a matter of seconds.

Hmm, now I've heard multiple reports that the mother was busy taking selfies while the child climbed through.

I can understand *why* the zoo did what they did, but it's a horrible situation all the way around. I think both the zoo and the parent are at fault here, especially when the mother runs a daycare, therefore should be held to a bit higher standard.

Lastly, I heard reports that people reported hearing the child adamantly telling his mother that he wanted to go down by the gorillas. That in itself should have prompted mom to either have a death grip on that child or be restraining him in some way. I can't for the life of me believe that this is the first time this child has disobeyed not to do something or had run off to do something he was told he couldn't.

I'm all for electric fencing around dangerous animal exhibits to restrain people.

[Chancellor]

I think Jane Goodall likely knows more than those zookeepers about gorilla behavior. You're right, she wasn't there, but you cannot dispute her status as one of the (if not THE) foremost experts in the world.

I am very familiar with Jane Goodall. However, since she was not there (nor were the DJs on the radio, nor was I) it is very unfair to judge the zookeepers etc about their decision making process when she has the benefit of hindsight and does not have the stress of making the decision in a split second. I stand by my statement.

[KathyK]

Do you ever not, lol? Goodness, I was just pointing our that Jane Goodall is a pretty informed person when it comes to primate behavior, probably more so than the zookeepers.

[Racetrackreject]

They did try to bring the gorillas in, but the silverback would not return to the gorilla house, even after all of the others went inside the house.

I read that police are looking at the parents only, and not any part the zoo played in the incident.

[Chancellor]

Do you ever not, lol? Goodness, I was just pointing our that Jane Goodall is a pretty informed person when it comes to primate behavior, probably more so than the zookeepers.

Yes, KathyK, I have admitted here, in fact, when I was wrong.

You really need to learn to agree to disagree. I agree that Jane Goodall is an informed person. I disagree that she should be commenting on this since she has the benefit of hindsight and not making a split second decision. If you think differently, good for you. I do not agree with you.

[Hayburner]

My take on the Jane comments. Yes, she's an expert. But, imho not every wild animal or domesticated animal will act/repond to a situation in the same way. Body language says a lot, but it can all change in an instant. Quicker than a bullet!

I doubt this woman's daycare business will survive, I know I would grab my kid out asap!

When we have these highly endangered species, maybe rather than a zoo, they need a remote area away from the crowds, stupid people, etc to bring them back from near extinction.

Basically save them from US!

[Racetrackreject]

When we have these highly endangered species, maybe rather than a zoo, they need a remote area away from the crowds, stupid people, etc to bring them back from near extinction.

Basically save them from US!

While I agree with this line of thought, the issue then becomes "Who is going to pay for it?". Let's face it, those admission sales pay for a heck of a lot animals' room and board. I believe it was $17/person the last time I went to the zoo in Houston and it was so jam packed with people that 1) you couldn't see most of the animals and 2) the ones that you could get close enough to see were hiding behind or in anything they could find. It was pretty sad for me, and I'm likely going to pass on the zoo experience from now on.

[WheresMyWhite]

Cincinnati Zoo...

Gate price adult admission $27, children $22 (you do get a bit of a discount if purchased online)

Base family membership (2 named adults, children in the same household, grandchildren under 18, free parking for one vehicle/adult) $129

Includes, among other things, free or discounted admission to about 100 other zoos/botanical gardens in the US

That $ goes along way to help pay for the animals (although I suspect donors are a larger portion of revenue for the zoo).

Zoos, in general, tread a fine line between making the animals visually accessible and keeping the public away from them...

As well, for zoos that have been around a while, older exhibits need to be replaced with larger, more suitable habitats for the animals. Those exhibit replacements are not cheap (again, I suspect much of the $$ comes from donors rather than gate or membership $$).

It appears that the Cincinnati Zoo does have member only hours which does help minimize crowd overload.

[DJR]

I thought I'd add my two cents to the mix.

My background with regards to this incident is:
-8 seasons as a relief zookeeper at the Calgary Zoo, working at one time or another with all species at the zoo (including great apes)
-a 3 yr residency in Zoo Animal Medicine & Pathology at the Toronto Zoo as a resident veterinarian
-18 yrs experience as a family physician working with parents & kids across a very wide spectrum of "good" vs. "atrocious" parenting, and everything in between

First & foremost, it's a tragedy on all counts. I feel for all involved.

I have reviewed the various statements & news items & commentaries that are available, including the views of Jane Goodall, other zookeepers, and my own zookeeper colleagues.

I agree that Harambe was not showing violent behavior towards the 3 yr old boy. From the video I watched, he appeared to be interested in the boy in a gentle sense during the peaceful moments with him. However, he also was agitated and defensive, and Silverbacks have a very strong hard-wired loyalty to protecting their troop. When they are in a defensive stance, they do things like run around, throw & destroy things, and generally show-off a very dramatic display. If the boy was inadvertently made a part of such a defensive display, he would have been badly hurt or killed. It doesn't mean that Harambe would have wanted that for the boy (to whatever extent we can assume to know Harambe's intentions), but that doesn't mean that the potential result was the serious injury or death of the boy.

Harambe could also have simply been trying to keep the boy close while doing what he could to "protect" his troop from the screams & highly agitated crowd. When gorillas - including Silverback males - play with young gorillas, they can be seen dragging them around in a manner similar to what the video shows Harambe doing with the boy. However, gorilla youngsters are proportionately much tougher/stronger than a 3 yr old boy. So, once again, whatever Harambe's intentions, the fact remains that the boy was at serious risk of severe injury or death.

My understanding from the posted stories is that zookeepers did all they could to bring the animals off display. All cooperated except Harambe (not surprisingly). At that point, after Harambe repeatedly dragged the boy through the water, zoo officials did NOT have the benefit of time to figure out options. Everything would have taken at least a few minutes to execute: crowd control & removal, preparation of a tranquilizing dart, etc. In fact, it likely would have taken 15-20 min to properly prepare a tranquilizing dart as doses must be drawn up, the dart prepared, and then they'd have to get close enough to Harambe to ensure that he, not the child, received the dart (dart velocities are considerably slower than bullet velocities, so accuracy is harder to ensure). Anyway, my point being that in that time, Harambe, given his behavior, could have seriously hurt or killed the child (inadvertently or otherwise).

Let's say, though, that a tranquilizing dart was ready very quickly. It's simply not that easy to tranquilize a wild animal, and especially so when the animal is amped up on adrenalin as Harambe would have been in his agitated state. The drugs commonly used to tranquilize an animal do not always work the same way if the animal is agitated. The effects of the drugs are not predictable in these circumstances. I've seen enough animals react in an unexpected or adverse way after being darted to know that it doesn't always go well. Add a child to the mix and it's an impossible situation with far more risks & potential for harm than benefits.

As for the parents, I know parents who are excellent and have, in the blink of an eye, had something happen in a split-second that changed everything for the worse regarding their child(ren). I know parents who are excellent but make a mistake, as we all do, and the result is not at all good. I also know really crappy parents who have horrible things happen because of their crappy parenting. The end result is the same ... a child is hurt or killed. And when I talk to the parent(s) after for bereavement support, the grief is universal. "If only I had ..... ". I have empathy for all of these parents. Sure I get upset about the crapsters out there & actively work towards helping crappy parents achieve more skills in parenting whenever I can, but I still have empathy because it sucks and accidents happen.

Anyway, my two cents aren't worth much more than anyone elses because I wasn't there. Given my experiences at zoos and with parents, I sure do feel for all involved.

[Alex]

Thanx for your post as well, DJR, I agree w/everything you wrote. Yes, Kathy, I tend to agree w/Jane Goodall on what the silverback was doing. But the fact is, the gentleness he displayed at several points during the incident was OFFSET BY HIS LACK OF AWARENESS of how fragile this little boy was. It truly was the most horrific Catch-22 situation a zoo could face. I think the only chance this little boy had rested w/the zoo maintenance people getting rid of the screaming crowd the VERY FIRST MOMENT the child tumbled into the exhibit. Since that didn't happen, everything else was spawned by that crowd sourcing enhancement of the silverback's agitation.

If the crowd had been entirely SILENT and had let the silverback continue his subtle exploration of the child, would the silverback have moved off and dragged him furiously through the water as he did, twice? The second time when the child was dragged through the water seemed to be the gorilla trying to find a QUIET PLACE to evaluate what this young child was doing in his domain. The fact the zoo keepers were unable to get the silverback into his night cage isn't surprising given the emotional tone around the exhibit w/the crowd screaming and groaning at every dramatic twist and turn. But the fact is, these gorillas are not unfamiliar w/people but they are unfamiliar w/the physical fragility of people vs the physicality of gorillas and that was what determined the lethal force choice by zoo officials.

If we're going to have zoos, we need to protect the animals from HUMAN URGES that have us thinking they're living exhibits into which we can intrude ourselves.

[Quelah]

I have zero experience with gorillas but a little experience with "exotics" and sedation, as well as dart guns, which I'll echo DJR is even less predictable than measured and controlled sedation. Even dart gunning a domestic nice QH in a stall, it's nothing like giving them a tidy IV injection. Saw this done in hospital when a suspected rabies case became uncontrollably aggressive. For the safety of staff they had to shoot it with a tranquilizer gun. The horse survived BTW, it was eventually deemed to be a bizarre colic presentation. Horse fine and back on the show circuit.

I've hauled a very not tame zebra to hospital, in their stock trailer, not my nice Hawk . Zookeeper rode in truck with me, he had a dart gun and a rifle. Didn't need either one, yay.

I observed (safely behind glass thank you!) oral surgery on an adult male African lion, done under general anesthesia. There was a zookeeper standing in the corner of the operating room with a shotgun. Drugs are great, wild animals are unpredictable.

I'm not a "kid person", I think most toddlers should be kept on leashes most of the time my mom put me on a leash when I was little and she took me to the zoo. Something she likes to remind me of from time to time. There's a part of me that wants to say gorillas are endangered and people aren't. But I also have to say, she who has never ever had an animal get loose in anyway, cast the first stone.

I'm very sad for the loss of the gorilla though. I only met one once, in company with my dad's friend who was considered the father of neonatology and developed the first NICU, when he was called upon to check on a baby gorilla. We are all primates after all She (the mother) was a kind and gentle creature and seemed to be very perceptive of good intent and allowed her baby to be examined. But that was a quiet controlled situation. And not a mature male with a screaming crowd. I just don't know. But it's sad all around.

[heddylamar]

No matter what choice was made, anything the zookeepers did was going to be heavily criticized in media/social media.

Unfortunately their choice resulted in one death. Fortunately it wasn't two deaths.

[Koolkat]

perhaps they should work on selectively breeding animals which don't require drugs to keep them "quiet" and "crowd pleasing" in captivity.

The goal is not breeding quiet or crowd pleasing animals. The goal is the sustainability of the species. Breeding is based on genetic preservation and diversity. (IMO, as it should be.)

You quoted my sentence out of context, changed the meaning and replied. Your reply is obvious. But not to the point. And perhaps not entirely correct.

Surely we can do better than this. If all the monies and effort went into preserving habitat for endangered species, the world would most certainly be a better place for all of us.

While, on the surface, I agree with you it really only makes sense to spend all that $$ on preserving habitat, where is the ever increasing population supposed to live or produce things to eat???

Isn't that part of the obvious problem? That was the canary in the coal mine point. We are after all, suppose to be the smart ones

[Spiritpaws]

For me this highlights why perhaps we should be questioning having zoos at all. Sanctuaries would be far better for the animals than zoos. Keeping wild animals in confinement so that we can gawk at them is not recognizing their status as sentient beings. Zoos are prisons. They may be pretty prisons, but it is still a form of incarceration.

[Hayburner]

WOW - I am super impressed with our DDBB members that are so educated and experienced on zoo's and the animals (primates) !

Since I am an animal lover vrs. a people lover I enjoy reading these posts. Let me clarify - I don't dislike people, but many times I prefer the comfort of an animal/pet than dealing with the drama of humans Then again, it's been a pretty drama filled week for me...

[quoteWhen we have these highly endangered species, maybe rather than a zoo, they need a remote area away from the crowds, stupid people, etc to bring them back from near extinction.

Basically save them from US!][/quote]

When I said this, I didn't mean that we should not have zoos, because yes, they need our support and money to continue. I only meant for the ones that are so low in numbers, it would be less stressful on the animals.

Let's not also forget the poor Pittsburgh family that lost their child who also went over a fence at the zoo.

I agree with keeping a child on a leash at certain times. I don't have children - but, I know even shopping with my young nephew I was a wreck trying to make sure he safe and not running off or that he wasn't snatched.

[bits]

I know kids get away from parents. HOWEVER... I think it's extreme for a child to go to the measure he did to overcome all barriers to get where he got. I'm sorry, but what he did by crawling over bushes and jumped down a wall is not normal child behavior. The kid needs a mental health evaluation done. Imagine what else he could do if nothing scares him. He needs to have more self preservation skills.

[Racetrackreject]

I thought this was interesting too. What becomes of the troop now that their male is gone?

http://www.wired.com/2016/06/happens-ha ... mplicated/

[DJR]

I thought this was interesting too. What becomes of the troop now that their male is gone?

http://www.wired.com/2016/06/happens-ha ... mplicated/

Yes, the SSP is behind the endangered species matchmaking. I know the other Silverback, Jomo (mentioned in the story in the link), personally from when he was a young subadult at the Toronto Zoo. He is a fabulous Silverback.

[TeresaA]

Thank you DJR for your comments.

IMHO there are two victims in this- one a a four year old boy that was able to get into the enclosure and the beautiful gorilla that was killed.

What makes me very sad is that I understand that both parents were at the zoo with their children but everyone is piling on the mother.