Dallas shooting

[bits]

Thoughts on the Dallas shooting? Everything about it doesn't support NRA's reasoning.

1) The shooter had no criminal background, bought guns and then killed five police officers. He was a good guy who turned bad the day he turned bad.

2) The people who were marching with their guns didn't defend themselves, they ran for their lives and in one case someone carrying an AR15 (legally) turned his gun over to police during the incident.

Is it possible that extra (legal) guns on the street caused confusion for the police officers as to who the good and bad guys were?

[orono]

That is the slant an article on a Canadian new site portrayed..

http://globalnews.ca/news/2812569/dalla ... 30561596=1

[WheresMyWhite]

FWIW, despite the fact that many/most states have legal open (in plain view) carry, I don't know that I personally ever seen a gun, handgun or long gun, openly displayed.

I have seen "concealed" by people that I believed were associated with LE.

Not sure what the NRA and their reasoning has to do with this incident.

How about focusing on the major discord between LE and communities? The majority of LE are not the problem. Yes, bad apples need to be weeded out and I don't think that is always done. How about stop throwing down the race card every time something happens to a minority. Maybe sometimes that minority is suspected of a crime. How about stopping with the knee jerk reactions immediately after any type of shooting incident. Cell phones, IMO, are causing much of the "damage" because they catch only a snippet of time, not what happened before nor what what in all the involved party's minds. How about stop focusing on the guns, esp in this case.

[khall]

WMW, I often see open carry here in GA, sometimes even the AR rifle. To me it is a jolt to see when someone has a gun on their hip that is not in LE. I was having a polite disagreement with a friends mother who believes there should not be gun free zones ever. I politely said I emphatically did not agree. I do not want guns openly carried or carried by teachers at my DS school unless they were trained LE officials. Sigh

I do think there needs to be multiple areas addressed in this issue of shootings, assault rifles IMO do not belong in general public's hands, strictor gun laws and background checks.

[bits]

I see guns all over Texas in public. Go out to dinner and just watch people pass by. I saw a gun on someone while at the Japanese garden. We joked that he was ready in case the koi fish decided to jump him. Lol

I wonder if having al the guns confused the police into not knowing who was the good guy and bad. Could it have caused them to hide from the good guy carrying the AR15 and accordingly put them in the line of fire of the bad guy?

[Tabby]

Personally, I think the US is at the beginning of a civil war. Last week, LE lost whatever little credibility they still had. And the black community is getting (rightfully) fed up. The 2 sides are emerging and people are starting to pick one or another (at least in my observation which could be completely wrong). In any event, most of my friends and colleagues have expressed that the US is not a good place to visit right now and several of them are changing vacation plans. I don't blame them.

I agree with WMW that it probably is just a few bad apples among what is mostly a good bushel but there still is some systemic problem in the sense that these bad apples are showing up in many jurisdictions across the country. That problem could have something to do with how they select police officers, training or even who gets drawn to the profession or how departments are run or any number of things. Whatever it is needs to be explored.

I would also agree with WMW in that guns aren't the main issue, though they do amplify it greatly so they shouldn't be discounted. BLM is active here in Toronto - their latest stunt was a peaceful interruption of our Pride parade with demands against police. In Canada, their beef with police is the practice of carding which has shown to have tones of racism. If I'm not mistaken, the province has or will be regulating it but I don't really know the details. It is still a form of harassment but nobody dies as a result. Too many people are dying in the US. But taking away their guns won't take away the underlying problem of racism and racial profiling by LE.

These are scary times. I hope they don't get worse.

[Chisamba]

I do not think the USA is anywhere near a civil war, but this belief is what has so many people insisting on their rights to have guns.

[WheresMyWhite]

And is not BLM also racist implying that lives of other colors don't matter simply in their name alone???

[Tabby]

The people were insisting on their rights to have guns before BLM vs. LE.

Yes, BLM is absolutely racists and that's part of the overall problem. Regardless of that, there have been too many incidences of cops shooting black guys including way too many that were without any justifiable cause whatsoever that it easy to understand how they came to be. There is a systemic problem that is feeding the racism on both sides.

[boots-aregard]

And is not BLM also racist implying that lives of other colors don't matter simply in their name alone???

No.

[Racetrackreject]

And is not BLM also racist implying that lives of other colors don't matter simply in their name alone???

No.

I have to agree. I think that some people have appropriated BLM and tried to adapt it towards a more racial slant, but those people were racist both before and after the BLM movement existed. They are just try to capitalize on the popularity of the movement to further their agendas at this time. I read BLM as more like BLAM (Black Lives Also Matter). That's my opinion anyway.

Tons of open carry in Texas, all over, even in church.

[boots-aregard]

Yeah. When one does the Susan G Komen Breast Cancer Walkathon, one is not declaring that no other disease is important. One is simply choosing to make a commitment to an issue that is also important.

[WheresMyWhite]

I don't see breast cancer, or any other type of cancer, being so divisive in this country as is race...

[Chisamba]

Did any of you read the Harvard study indicating that blacks are not actually shot at a higher rate?

http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

However use of force was definitely more prevalent

[myleetlepony]

Regardless of that, there have been too many incidences of cops shooting black guys including way too many that were without any justifiable cause whatsoever that it easy to understand how they came to be.

Actually, the majority WERE found to be justified.

People REALLY REALLY need to educate themselves on what use of force is, what is acceptable, and when escalation is appropriate.

[WheresMyWhite]

People REALLY REALLY need to educate themselves on what use of force is, what is acceptable, and when escalation is appropriate.

I second and third this. The law as it applies to peace officers is different than non-peace officers. Peace officers do have a significant burden that goes along with carrying a gun. Every agency has their own specific policies and procedures relating to the use of force continuum but they are all fairly similar. Remember also that decisions must often be made in split seconds so Monday morning quarterbacking is easy; being there in the moment, not so much.

I have (as I am sure even others on this board have) talked to LE who have been engaged in officer involved shootings. It's not easy to make those split second calls. Yes, they train... role plays, simulators, in-service training every year - not the same as thinking/feeling you might just be looking at death in the face, up close and personal.

If anyone is interested, this might be enlightening reading...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

[Tabby]

Actually the breast cancer movement started out rather politicized as well. Breast cancer used to be a taboo subject. It wasn't until the feminist movement in the 70's that people were able to talk about it. The marches and protests followed after the success of the AIDS marches and protests in the 80's and 90's which resulted in tremendous advances in science that were realized in many areas above and beyond diagnosing and treating HIV. These were also successful in raising awareness and removing the stigma, though there still is an element of stigma associated with mastectomy, especially when breast cancer hasn't developed yet but the genes associated with it have.

BLM is not the first movement by black people but in and of itself it is rather new. I think they have a legitimate bone to pick. I don't know the exact numbers of justifiable/unjustifiable shootings are - and I doubt the true numbers are immediately available - but the videos that I have seen - the 2 last week and the one last year where the cop shot the guy in the back and tried to plant a taser on him - those were pretty disgusting. There was another one that happened here in Toronto a couple of years ago - the cop ended up being found guilty of attempted murder (though he killed the guy but it was the subsequent shooting of him after he was dead that he was guilty of ). I'm also old enough to remember Rodney King. Meanwhile, a white guy walks into a church and kills 9 people and he got to walk out in hand cuffs and another white guy rapes an unconscious woman and gets 6 months because he's an athlete. I'd say there is a really, really big problem and it's not whether or not BLM is racist or whether blacks kill other blacks.

[myleetlepony]

People REALLY REALLY need to educate themselves on what use of force is, what is acceptable, and when escalation is appropriate.

I second and third this. The law as it applies to peace officers is different than non-peace officers. Peace officers do have a significant burden that goes along with carrying a gun. Every agency has their own specific policies and procedures relating to the use of force continuum but they are all fairly similar. Remember also that decisions must often be made in split seconds so Monday morning quarterbacking is easy; being there in the moment, not so much.

I have (as I am sure even others on this board have) talked to LE who have been engaged in officer involved shootings. It's not easy to make those split second calls. Yes, they train... role plays, simulators, in-service training every year - not the same as thinking/feeling you might just be looking at death in the face, up close and personal.

If anyone is interested, this might be enlightening reading...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

Also, when Monday Morning Quarterbacking, it is impossible to take into account, and it's often forgotten, that an officer's gut feeling is also involved in an incident. You know, that gut feeling that women are championed to listen to to keep them out of danger? There's a biological component involved that is impossible to quantify after the fact, even though we try to by comparing force displayed to what other "reasonable" people do. LE is trained to keep calm and think as clearly as possible, even when their gut is screaming at them.

I would also add to the above article that it is generally accepted practice during use of force for the officer to stay one level above the force utilized by the subject. Many, many cell phone videos claiming "police brutality" have ultimately demonstrated that the officer did, in fact, go only one step above the level of resistance displayed.

[myleetlepony]

BLM is not the first movement by black people but in and of itself it is rather new. I think they have a legitimate bone to pick. I don't know the exact numbers of justifiable/unjustifiable shootings are - and I doubt the true numbers are immediately available - but the videos that I have seen - the 2 last week and the one last year where the cop shot the guy in the back and tried to plant a taser on him - those were pretty disgusting. There was another one that happened here in Toronto a couple of years ago - the cop ended up being found guilty of attempted murder (though he killed the guy but it was the subsequent shooting of him after he was dead that he was guilty of ). I'm also old enough to remember Rodney King. Meanwhile, a white guy walks into a church and kills 9 people and he got to walk out in hand cuffs and another white guy rapes an unconscious woman and gets 6 months because he's an athlete. I'd say there is a really, really big problem and it's not whether or not BLM is racist or whether blacks kill other blacks.

You do realize, out of something like 558 people killed by LE this year, less than 175 of them were black?

You can't utilize a judgement handed down about a college rapist to what's happening on the streets at the officer level...and let me remind you, people were outraged at his lack of a sentence. I'd one up and say more than anything, we have a media problem that sensationalizes, does not report facts, does not get the whole story before reporting, and goes softer on white males when showing their pictures. Maybe it's the media who is truly fanning the flames of racisim.

Maybe BLM has a valid point hidden somewhere in the dark recesses...however, it is impossible for me to even try to understand a group that A) started from a false premise (the officer in Ferguson was found to be JUSTIFIED) and B) refuses to reign in or denounce their extremist representatives and remains passive on chants such as "fry em like bacon" and other calls to kill officers and their families and C) calls for disbanding law enforcement completely and creating neighborhood task forces to deal with crime.

[Tabby]

Media is certainly doing their part - I can't argue with that. Social media complicates it even more. I think many people have more trust in uncensored social media but are equally fooled into thinking something must be true because it has been re-tweeted so many million times giving it a aura of credibility even when it includes few facts. Both forms of media are dangerous.

With respect to BLM - I'm not defending their actions. I actually think they are too bullyish. I wish they would be more like the LGBT activists who have made incredible progress over a reasonably short period of time without engaging in any violence except what has been done to them. Regardless of their tactics, BLM has a legitimate point. I can't imagine what it's like to fear for my life when being pulled over for a minor traffic violation.

[WheresMyWhite]

I can't imagine what it's like to fear for my life when being pulled over for a minor traffic violation.

And I can't imagine being in fear for my life when the person I'm grappling with is, I feel, going for their gun...

Or not knowing what you are walking up to when you walk up to a vehicle you stopped for a minor traffic violation. All LE knows when they walk up to the car is if the license plate (assuming it has one) matches the vehicle description, if the plate/vehicle has been stolen, and who the registered owner is. Nothing more. They know nothing about the occupants (they may not even know exactly how many people are in the vehicle).

[Tabby]

I can't imagine the fear of dealing with people who might be going for their gun either. Which is why I'm a strong supporter of gun control.

I absolutely understand and appreciate the dangers LE face every day. I feel safer because of it. But I'm also not in the demographic that's likely to be shot on sight at the slightest suspicion, either. And I don't carry a gun - concealed or otherwise.

[boots-aregard]

:roll:

I don't see breast cancer, or any other type of cancer, being so divisive in this country as is race...

Actually, I'm talking about how language works. And it works the same way for "Black lives matter" as it works for "Join the Breast Cancer Walkathon". Neither one slams the other races or diseases not mentioned. Even the Phoenicians understood the concept of zero as a place holder between 1 and -1.