Where we have failed....

KathyK
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Beautiful Aurora, Ohio

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby KathyK » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:41 pm

My point is not that good LEOs should make the news. My point is that the bad ones do make the news and people tend to remember the bad.....not that there are thousands of very good LEOs doing a great job every day.

But that's the point, isn't it? Bad acts by LEOs should be newsworthy. If they become ordinary, and thus not newsworthy, we're all in a heap of trouble. I'm sure you don't think that every LEO doing a good job every day deserves a pat on the back, because that just plays into the "everyone gets a ribbon" mentality that many believe is one of the ways we have "failed."

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1122
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Chancellor » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:47 pm

KathyK-my point is this. Just because there are bad LEOs being highlighted on the news, don't forget that there are thousands of good ones out there every day doing a good job. That's my ONLY point.

Tuffytown
Herd Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:09 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Tuffytown » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:27 pm

Of course there are. It's part of the dysfunction of the conversation that it has to be said. Because those that are bad are focused on in the media and by certain groups (BLM) who are much maligned by other media does not mean that those groups and those of us concerned about abusive authority don't know and believe that most of LEO's are good.

It often seems to me that some don't want the bad players brought out into the light. Nothing to see here, move along.

xhltsalute
Greenie
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby xhltsalute » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:10 pm

Seems so difficult for some to understand.

Thumbs up for Tuffy.

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:33 am

Tuffytown wrote:Of course there are. It's part of the dysfunction of the conversation that it has to be said. Because those that are bad are focused on in the media and by certain groups (BLM) who are much maligned by other media does not mean that those groups and those of us concerned about abusive authority don't know and believe that most of LEO's are good.

It often seems to me that some don't want the bad players brought out into the light. Nothing to see here, move along.


Agree...

When one teacher out of a city full of schools has been fired and brought up on charges, does everyone cry foul and say that one teacher was just a bad apple among many good?

When one judge is found guilty of bias, racism or stereotyping does society say that not all judges are bad?

When one doctor is charged with malpractice does everyone feel the need to remind everyone of all the good doctors?

For some reason... some people feel the need to defend the "good LEO's" when a bad one is being spotlighted... why? If they are good then they are doing their jobs and fullfilling their job descriptions and responsibilities... why do they need to be defended? Why, when a bad cop is being discussed it always has to be said that, "Not all cops are bad"?

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:18 am

For some reason... some people feel the need to defend the "good LEO's" when a bad one is being spotlighted... why? If they are good then they are doing their jobs and fullfilling their job descriptions and responsibilities... why do they need to be defended? Why, when a bad cop is being discussed it always has to be said that, "Not all cops are bad"?


Because, for whatever reason, society in general paints LE with a broad brush based off acts of a few. Not sure why that is the case for LE when it is not for other groups. I'm going to guess that it's because for the most part, LE is viewed as "the bad guys" and groups such as say, firemen and paramedics, are the "heroes". LE has long been called "pigs", never around when you need one, only show up when something bad is happening, etc.

Also groups like teachers, judges, doctors, firemen, etc aren't generally in situations that put them in great harm many times a day, EVERY day. They don't have the same stresses, reactions, training or required mindsets. Heck, most people aren't even aware that firemen and paramedics don't go into any non-routine situations without making the police go in first and telling them the scene is secure. But yet, THEY are the heroes...

Other professions get recognition for their bad apples and their good deeds. LE generally only gets recognition for the bad apples and the good deeds are ignored as "it's part of the job". LE is picked apart based off of portions of cell phone videos that only show confrontations, not the events leading up to it.

For example, we don't know the history on the female student in SC...maybe she had run ins before with the SRO, maybe she's been combative with him in the past. That changes scope and reaction. Putting weight on the fact that he was fired doesn't necessarily prove anything; it only means that someone's head was going to roll and sh*t rolls down hill. Maybe he's requested further training and been denied. Maybe petitions have been brought in the past to have this girl removed from the school entirely and a higher up denied it but needed to save face. The politics in ANY department and the connections are sometimes unfathomable and illogical. None of that comes into play when society at large is already biased on the profession and cell phone videos are sensationalized by the media with no background. At the same time, guess what...it's not your background to know!

Seriously, LE is the most Monday-Morning Quarterbacked profession I have ever heard of (except maybe politicians). Heck, even our dispatch training is based off of MMQ'ing 911 calls, even ones that went well, and it's not pointing out the good parts.

While I used the SC incident as an example, I'm going to remain silent on my opinions based off the fact that I know there is almost always more to the story and I don't feel it's fair to make the judgement without further info.

carpevita
Herd Member
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:43 pm
Location: west coast of new england

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby carpevita » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:36 am

And lets not forget that bad guys make the news precisely because their behavior IS news---the unusualness of it is what makes it newsworthy. Most of us go about our business quietly every day without making it onto the news, because we're normalish and act accordingly.
Add to that the screaming headlines and tag lines and what passes for journalism in msm in this culture and imho it is a perfect storm.
No wonder people are either freaking out or tuning out.

angela9823
Herd Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:56 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby angela9823 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:14 pm

I don't paint LEs with a broad stroke. I, more often than not, side with the LEs and have been called racist in the past as a result. But those people were ones that lashed out on many occasions first. They ran, they started their car and tried to drive off, they yelled at the cop etc. This was not the situation here. Many of the students that were interviewed said the girl put away her phone but just didn't do it fast enough for the teacher. She did comply. She didn't run. She wasn't yelling or screaming. Her demeanor did not look like one that would attack the teacher. She was sitting with head on hand. Yes, she was defiant, but at least it was a peaceful defiance.

The ironic part is that yesterday, students at that school left their classrooms at 10 to all gather in an act of peaceful demonstration for this cop asking that they bring him back. It was still an act of defiance to the known rules of the school. None of them got slammed to the ground. Some took a little longer getting back to their rooms but they were still allowed to have a voice.

I'm not saying the girl is right. But if the students' perceptions are right, the teacher should possibly have a little more patience. How many times have I done that to my mom or our children do that to us? They do something we asked SLOWLY to show that yes, they are complying but they don't like it.

I don't think it was the cop that is all wrong here. What law was broken that he was called in? He was put in a bad place. I don't think he should be fired even, but he should be suspended and then retrained with different methods than those that were used.

Code3
Herd Member
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:41 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Code3 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:29 pm

CanadianTrotter wrote:
Tuffytown wrote:Of course there are. It's part of the dysfunction of the conversation that it has to be said. Because those that are bad are focused on in the media and by certain groups (BLM) who are much maligned by other media does not mean that those groups and those of us concerned about abusive authority don't know and believe that most of LEO's are good.

It often seems to me that some don't want the bad players brought out into the light. Nothing to see here, move along.


Agree...

When one teacher out of a city full of schools has been fired and brought up on charges, does everyone cry foul and say that one teacher was just a bad apple among many good?

When one judge is found guilty of bias, racism or stereotyping does society say that not all judges are bad?

When one doctor is charged with malpractice does everyone feel the need to remind everyone of all the good doctors?

For some reason... some people feel the need to defend the "good LEO's" when a bad one is being spotlighted... why? If they are good then they are doing their jobs and fullfilling their job descriptions and responsibilities... why do they need to be defended? Why, when a bad cop is being discussed it always has to be said that, "Not all cops are bad"?

Because there ARE some sweeping assumptions being made about police, at least coming through my news feed. And yes, the bad ones should be brought to light and should NOT be defended, because they are the exception. I only get defensive when broad assumptions are made about all cops, and it isn't difficult to find those.

Tuffytown
Herd Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:09 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Tuffytown » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:04 pm

I agree, the media broadcasts the most sensational. But most of us realize that and know that it is a minority. The converse of this that bothers me is the immediate victim blaming. All the speculation of what a horrible person this individual we know nothing about must be. As every minor transgression they may have had in their life is broadcast , probably little different than most of the rest of us, the character assassination builds and their abuse or death is deemed justified.

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1122
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Chancellor » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:21 pm

Tuffytown wrote:I agree, the media broadcasts the most sensational. But most of us realize that and know that it is a minority. The converse of this that bothers me is the immediate victim blaming. All the speculation of what a horrible person this individual we know nothing about must be. As every minor transgression they may have had in their life is broadcast , probably little different than most of the rest of us, the character assassination builds and their abuse or death is deemed justified.


I think you would be surprised at the number of people who DON'T understand it is a minority.

Tuffytown
Herd Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:09 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Tuffytown » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:47 pm

And I think that that is part of the media sensationalism that makes it seem that way when it is not so. Just as you feel that all of law enforcement is being painted by a broad brush I think that the message of those that object to abusive law enforcement are being misrepresented as well. Just helping to reinforce the us vs them mentality. Look at the demonization of the BLM conversation.

WheresMyWhite
500 post plus club
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:17 pm

Tuffytown wrote:But most of us realize that and know that it is a minority.


Most??? I believe just a very few. I personally believe the vast majority of the population believes the media and doesn't take into consideration (or even considers) that the media goes for sensationalism... if the media says it, it must be so.

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:55 pm

Tuffytown wrote: Look at the demonization of the BLM conversation.


What you may or may not be aware of was that there was a large faction of the BLM movement calling for the execution of LE officers. They encouraged BLM supporters to kill an officer, hang them from a tree and send pictures into websites and a radio program as proof. How does that not create an us vs. them mentality? I truly believe, to some degree, the BLM movement allowed more people to feel empowered to defy LE and at the very least become argumentative.

xhltsalute
Greenie
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby xhltsalute » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:40 pm

...BLM movement calling for the execution of LE officers.


Who is promoting such a thing? Please provide link.

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:13 am

This is the first link on a 5 sec Google search...

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/08/ ... -and-cops/

ETA, this was shortly before the officer in Texas was executed while pumping gas.

xhltsalute
Greenie
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby xhltsalute » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:50 am

Breitbart has NO credibility.

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:23 am

Nationwide critical reaches through LE that I CAN NOT post here do have absolute credibility. That's how I was informed of it. I humored you with a quick Google search and posted the first link. Maybe take some of your own time to search it.

It is a credible threat. Just because Slate or Vox didn't cover it doesn't mean it isn't real.

xhltsalute
Greenie
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby xhltsalute » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:12 am

Sorry, if there were credible threats, we would have heard about them.

Tuffytown
Herd Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:09 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Tuffytown » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:44 am

myleetlepony wrote:
Tuffytown wrote: Look at the demonization of the BLM conversation.


What you may or may not be aware of was that there was a large faction of the BLM movement calling for the execution of LE officers. They encouraged BLM supporters to kill an officer, hang them from a tree and send pictures into websites and a radio program as proof. How does that not create an us vs. them mentality? I truly believe, to some degree, the BLM movement allowed more people to feel empowered to defy LE and at the very least become argumentative.


Again, media sensationalization exacerbating the actions of a few. Did some individuals promote stupid and violent ideas such as above? probably, the world is full of assholes of any stripe.

"A large faction of the BLM movement" I think if that were the case there would be more credible media attention on that.

Seems it was one individual that probably isn't a member of BLM

http://www.snopes.com/fyf911-black-lives-matter/

Code3
Herd Member
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:41 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Code3 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:26 pm

xhltsalute wrote:Sorry, if there were credible threats, we would have heard about them.

Law Enforcement heard about them and there were links to audio from radio interviews where this happened. But, as posted above, those were proven to not be associated with BLM. Still, there WAS a call to kill police officers randomly.

There is enough blame on all sides for the "us vs them" mentality, and we see lots of examples right here on the board. If you are not with me 100%, you are against me. And that just isn't realistic.

We need to look at a different perspective, try to figuratively walk a mile in someone else's shoes. If I were a black person looking at the video that has been posted, I'd fear for my life when stopped by the police. Let's face it, we've seen some poor examples of policing. I'm not sure Darren Wilson should be lumped in to the bad policing, but we will never know because of the piss-poor leadership from police and the DA in that case.

Tuscon, AZ, is posting positive interactions on their FB page. I think that is a smart thing to do, and goes to building community.

I've said it before, I'll say it a million more times - we need to talk to each other, not shout each other down.

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:51 pm

Tuffytown wrote:And I think that that is part of the media sensationalism that makes it seem that way when it is not so. Just as you feel that all of law enforcement is being painted by a broad brush I think that the message of those that object to abusive law enforcement are being misrepresented as well. Just helping to reinforce the us vs them mentality. Look at the demonization of the BLM conversation.



I agree.

I believe it depends on where you live and the amount of crime and type/class of people in that area.

I also believe that those who believe everything in the media live in an either very biased, sheltered or uneducated area or population.

Just because certain areas have higher numbers of "cop haters" does not mean the rest of the world sees things the same way.

Code3
Herd Member
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:41 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Code3 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:01 pm

A recent DOJ report says incidents of unprovoked ambushes on police are up during the period of 2008 - 2013, from 200 a year to 250 a year. So the police aren't totally paranoid. The numbers are up and are being reported to them. To put it in perspective, however, ambushes on police were over 500 a year in the 1990s, and that is also reports in police newsletters and bulletins.

CT, I think it's too easy to disregard/dismiss people who believe the media as living in a biased, sheltered or uneducated area. I see some otherwise intelligent, productive people believing everything FOX tells them. How is that different?

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:15 pm

myleetlepony wrote:
For some reason... some people feel the need to defend the "good LEO's" when a bad one is being spotlighted... why? If they are good then they are doing their jobs and fullfilling their job descriptions and responsibilities... why do they need to be defended? Why, when a bad cop is being discussed it always has to be said that, "Not all cops are bad"?


Because, for whatever reason, society in general paints LE with a broad brush based off acts of a few. Not sure why that is the case for LE when it is not for other groups. I'm going to guess that it's because for the most part, LE is viewed as "the bad guys" and groups such as say, firemen and paramedics, are the "heroes". LE has long been called "pigs", never around when you need one, only show up when something bad is happening, etc.

Also groups like teachers, judges, doctors, firemen, etc aren't generally in situations that put them in great harm many times a day, EVERY day. They don't have the same stresses, reactions, training or required mindsets. Heck, most people aren't even aware that firemen and paramedics don't go into any non-routine situations without making the police go in first and telling them the scene is secure. But yet, THEY are the heroes...

Other professions get recognition for their bad apples and their good deeds. LE generally only gets recognition for the bad apples and the good deeds are ignored as "it's part of the job". LE is picked apart based off of portions of cell phone videos that only show confrontations, not the events leading up to it.


Your opinion/experience must be based from living/working in a high crime rate area... so it could be seen as being biased.

In my area the police are commended as much if not more than they are condemned and the majority of our population does not paint every LEO with the same brush as those that have done bad things. In our newspaper the cops that do bad things get a small snippet in the paper explaining the details and the cops that do good things get a full half page with complimentary pictures.

Not too long ago we had an incident where a cop killed a non-criminal member of our society. A small article was printed in the newspaper with witness accounts. It was legally dealt with without a witch hunt or "us vs them". A week later there was a full page article about the police doing a charity fundraiser for our city.

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:25 pm

Code3 wrote:CT, I think it's too easy to disregard/dismiss people who believe the media as living in a biased, sheltered or uneducated area. I see some otherwise intelligent, productive people believing everything FOX tells them. How is that different?


With respect....

If an "otherwise intelligent and productive person" is trusting FOX as their primary source of information... that is biased, sheltered and possibly a type of prejudice way of thinking isn't it?

What is stopping these people you mention, from expanding their sources/resources of gaining information?

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4471
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Chisamba » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:46 pm

One of the reasons that I was attracted to working in the field of care is because it attracts empaths type personalities. i first thought it was because i wanted to feel needed, which it is, but i stayed because despite the things about co workers that drives everyone a bit crazy, in general the people who work for others are not sociopathic/psychopathic in tendency.

now i remember reading an article about the top ten jobs that attract psychopaths, and by psychopaths i do not mean killers, i mean In reality, people that just lack emotions and empathy, or the ability to identify with others

. Dutton has said that ”a number of psychopathic attributes [are] actually more common in business leaders than in so-called disturbed criminals — attributes such as superficial charm, egocentricity, persuasiveness, lack of empathy, independence, and focus.”

anyway, along with journalists, CEO's and lawyers and surgeons, is Law Enforcement.

i am not suggesting in any way that every cop is a psychopath, but i am suggesting that it is a career that is attractive to the type, and and such is going to always have a small percentage that are exactly the type of person you do not want to give that kind of power to. that said, there are lots of other good people attracted to the LE but, if you are close friends, or family with a police office, they will all tell you, in a moment of stress, about the one guy in their department that they know is THAT person.

it does not belittle the good ones. there are lousy people in all walks of life, and good people in all walks of life. blanket statements are not good and you learn as you go, and hopefully businesses and LEO learn and improve too.

WheresMyWhite
500 post plus club
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:30 pm

CanadianTrotter wrote:If an "otherwise intelligent and productive person" is trusting FOX as their primary source of information... that is biased, sheltered and possibly a type of prejudice way of thinking isn't it?

What is stopping these people you mention, from expanding their sources/resources of gaining information?


This appears to be to be an unrealistic view of the world. I *know* someone who believes FOX is the be-all and end-all of information sources. They believe FOX so why would they look someplace else? Just because you believe that FOX is biased, sheltered and prejudiced doesn't mean FOX is wrong.

That is no different than people who believe the liberal outlets are spouting the truth. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean who/what you are disagreeing with is wrong.

I am completely in agreement with both of Code3's posts.

PS. FWIW, I can't stand FOX's views and their presentation of "news" but that doesn't mean that I think they are wrong... they have a huge following. I just don't agree with it; to dismiss them out of hand to me is a mistake because of their following. I would not dream of suggesting to my friend (who has been far more of a friend to me than the vast majority of my "acquaintances") that FOX is garbage and get her information from someone else. I just button my lip and try not to gag :shock:

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:49 pm

CanadianTrotter wrote:Your opinion/experience must be based from living/working in a high crime rate area... so it could be seen as being biased.

In my area the police are commended as much if not more than they are condemned and the majority of our population does not paint every LEO with the same brush as those that have done bad things. In our newspaper the cops that do bad things get a small snippet in the paper explaining the details and the cops that do good things get a full half page with complimentary pictures.

Not too long ago we had an incident where a cop killed a non-criminal member of our society. A small article was printed in the newspaper with witness accounts. It was legally dealt with without a witch hunt or "us vs them". A week later there was a full page article about the police doing a charity fundraiser for our city.


Far from it, CT, I live in a middle class area and work in an affluent demographic. I do also have exposure to low income/high crime areas but not in LE capacity. I guess I'm lucky to be in an area where I can have exposure to a variety of socioeconomic groups.

My opinions come from hearing, seeing and speaking with people in those various areas, as well as watching media reactions and the commentary that follows on websites and social media.

I would be of the opinion, based on your above post, that maybe you could gain some insight by stepping out of your area a bit...connect with others across the country and discuss the subject with them sometimes.

One of my favorite people to discuss the subject with is a client of mine that is very liberal and anti-police. She and I have both come away from conversations having a lot to think over and consider.

Xhalt, there are a lot of credible threats and information, both local and nationwide, that the general public doesn't know about that LE is made aware of. There is a reason for that. That's your problem if you want to dismiss it or not, but don't for a second think that you are entitled enough that if you didn't hear about, it doesn't exist.
Last edited by myleetlepony on Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WheresMyWhite
500 post plus club
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:22 pm

MLP, I think you meant CT and not Code3 ;)

And I agree with your comments... LE hears about many threats made to/about LE that never make the media. I've sat in patrol before-shift briefings and heard about some of those threats. And no, I did not go running to the media - that would be betraying the trust LE had in me in allowing me to sit in on briefings...
Last edited by WheresMyWhite on Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:53 pm

Oops, yes, I meant CT. My apologies. I'll edit...

KathyK
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Beautiful Aurora, Ohio

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby KathyK » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:36 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:Just because you believe that FOX is biased, sheltered and prejudiced doesn't mean FOX is wrong.


You might be interested in this article, which discusses a study showing that people who get their information solely from Fox "News" are less informed than people who don't watch the news at all.
http://www.businessinsider.com/study-wa ... all-2012-5

So yes, in addition to being biased and prejudiced, FOX IS WRONG about a lot of stuff.

WheresMyWhite
500 post plus club
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby WheresMyWhite » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:19 am

KathyK wrote:So yes, in addition to being biased and prejudiced, FOX IS WRONG about a lot of stuff.


I didn't say if FOX was right or wrong. The people who get their information from them think FOX is right. Perception is often reality for the perceiver... no?

I don't need to read that article... I don't watch FOX, I don't like their bias, I don't believe them. Clear enough? (And just because I don't like or believe FOX doesn't mean I am going to expend much effort trying to convince someone else that does believe in FOX.)

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:23 am

WheresMyWhite wrote:
CanadianTrotter wrote:If an "otherwise intelligent and productive person" is trusting FOX as their primary source of information... that is biased, sheltered and possibly a type of prejudice way of thinking isn't it?

What is stopping these people you mention, from expanding their sources/resources of gaining information?


This appears to be to be an unrealistic view of the world. I *know* someone who believes FOX is the be-all and end-all of information sources. They believe FOX so why would they look someplace else? Just because you believe that FOX is biased, sheltered and prejudiced doesn't mean FOX is wrong.



Read for content.

Where did I say that I believe Fox is biased, sheltered and prejudice? Where did I say Fox is wrong?

I said people that trust FOX(or any other media outlet) as their primary source of information are biased, sheltered and possibly prejudice.

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:54 am

myleetlepony wrote:
CanadianTrotter wrote:Your opinion/experience must be based from living/working in a high crime rate area... so it could be seen as being biased.


Far from it, CT, I live in a middle class area and work in an affluent demographic. I do also have exposure to low income/high crime areas but not in LE capacity. I guess I'm lucky to be in an area where I can have exposure to a variety of socioeconomic groups.

I would be of the opinion, based on your above post, that maybe you could gain some insight by stepping out of your area a bit...connect with others across the country and discuss the subject with them sometimes.



I've only been in "this" area for five years and have moved/relocated many times. I've lived in small towns and large cities(Toronto), so I believe I have a fair amount of insight from that. I also have spoken to many people from different areas/countries at considerable length as well as have done in depth research of different countries.

Contrary to what you believe... I do not believe that "society in general paints LE with a broad brush based off acts of a few". I have found "pockets" in certain areas of living where "cop haters" seem to congregate and feed off each other(usually high crime areas) but have seen or lived in more areas where the society in general respects and appreciates their LE.

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:26 am

Have you lived in multiple places in the US?

xhltsalute
Greenie
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby xhltsalute » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:25 am

myleetlepony wrote:Xhalt, there are a lot of credible threats and information, both local and nationwide, that the general public doesn't know about that LE is made aware of. There is a reason for that. That's your problem if you want to dismiss it or not, but don't for a second think that you are entitled enough that if you didn't hear about, it doesn't exist.


And, from Code's post above, those threats were not by the BLM as you claimed.

Law Enforcement heard about them and there were links to audio from radio interviews where this happened. But, as posted above, those were proven to not be associated with BLM. Still, there WAS a call to kill police officers randomly.

KathyK
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Beautiful Aurora, Ohio

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby KathyK » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:10 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:I didn't say if FOX was right or wrong. The people who get their information from them think FOX is right. Perception is often reality for the perceiver... no?

Perception is not reality when it comes to facts. It's distressing that I have to point this out to you.

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:41 pm

myleetlepony wrote:Have you lived in multiple places in the US?



No I haven't but I lived on the border of Maine for many years and had close relationships with those that lived there. I didn't realize that this discussion or "cop hating" was exclusive to the US.

If you want to keep the discussion as "Cop Hating in the US",... I would still have to disagree with you. There are and I know of many areas in the states along the Canadian border and NE coast that do not paint all LE with the same brush because of a few bad apples.

I will mention that I did do extensive research into the states that house your most affluent and reputed universities. I discovered they do have a large number of "cop haters" and high rates of crime and gun violence.

myleetlepony
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:25 pm
Location: Northern IL

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby myleetlepony » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:52 pm

Xhalt, I said "a faction of". The people initially calling for the executions may not have been members but the idea *was* promoted by people identifying themselves as members. Regardless, it *is* a valid threat and arguing semantics doesn't change the fact that LE knows more than you.

CT, I'm not saying this is a US only discussion, but I can not in any way, shape or form comment on ideologies in Canada as I have not experienced them. As far as I know, Canadian society does not have the clashes and tensions between general public and LE that the US does. So, to clarify, in my experience, US society, in general, views cops as "the bad guys".

To get the discussion back on track...any idea how many parents trudge their kid down to the police station I work in every week asking to have us tell their kid they will be arrested if they don't listen? That's not including the times officers are standing in line somewhere on lunch and they hear a parent tell their young kid " if you don't behave, that officer will arrest you". How is that not failing the kid when 3yo's are basically told to fear the uniform? My SO, who is now part time LE and does property management has even had that said about him by tenants at his buildings.

KathyK
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Beautiful Aurora, Ohio

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby KathyK » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:16 pm

myleetlepony wrote:To get the discussion back on track...any idea how many parents trudge their kid down to the police station I work in every week asking to have us tell their kid they will be arrested if they don't listen? That's not including the times officers are standing in line somewhere on lunch and they hear a parent tell their young kid " if you don't behave, that officer will arrest you". How is that not failing the kid when 3yo's are basically told to fear the uniform? My SO, who is now part time LE and does property management has even had that said about him by tenants at his buildings.

When I worked in retail many years ago, from time to time women told their little children, "If you don't behave, that lady will get you." I smiled sweetly at the children and said, "Oh honey, no I won't." I realize sometimes a parent is holding tightly to her or his last straw, but to make children afraid of shopgirls, landlords, and LEOs is not the answer.

WheresMyWhite
500 post plus club
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby WheresMyWhite » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:25 pm

KathyK wrote:Perception is not reality when it comes to facts. It's distressing that I have to point this out to you.


It's distressing that you think that "facts" are what dictate what people believe. People tend to believe what they perceive are facts - regardless of the accuracy of those facts.

KathyK
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Beautiful Aurora, Ohio

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby KathyK » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:48 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
KathyK wrote:Perception is not reality when it comes to facts. It's distressing that I have to point this out to you.


It's distressing that you think that "facts" are what dictate what people believe. People tend to believe what they perceive are facts - regardless of the accuracy of those facts.

What? :lol: You seem to be distressed over something I neither said nor implied.

You DO watch Fox, don't you? :lol:

WheresMyWhite
500 post plus club
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby WheresMyWhite » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:24 pm

You DO NOT read for content, do you?

I have repeated said I do not watch FOX - I don't like their biased reporting (but then again, I don't like most media's biased, sensationalized reporting).

I am not distressed. You appear to be.

Perception *is* reality for the perceiver. It is what it is. Heaven knows I've seen enough here where opinions are formed based on "facts" regardless of the quality of those facts or the inclusion or exclusion of a specific fact.

KathyK
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Beautiful Aurora, Ohio

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby KathyK » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:57 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:It's distressing that you think that "facts" are what dictate what people believe. People tend to believe what they perceive are facts - regardless of the accuracy of those facts.


WheresMyWhite wrote:I am not distressed. You appear to be.

So, which is it? :lol:

Your constant claim to be able to tell other people how they "appear" to be feeling, what they "appear" to be thinking is really quite impressive. (A bit of sarcasm in case you missed it.)

xhltsalute
Greenie
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby xhltsalute » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:22 pm

myleetlepony wrote:Xhalt, I said "a faction of".


Riiiight. They were people claiming to be BLM members and they were NOT affiliated w/BLM. They can claim to be anything they want.

xhltsalute
Greenie
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby xhltsalute » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:03 pm

Would this be an LEO you'd get rid of for his abusive actions?

“Philip White missed his bus to the mountains, when he asked Greyhound staff for help in catching the next bus home, he was told by a security guard he was trespassing and had to leave the Greyhound Bus Depot,” said White’s attorney Mari Newman. “This is a Master’s Degree holder and long-time educator who was set upon with excessive force as police violated his civil rights, all over a bus ticket.”

http://kdvr.com/2015/10/31/blind-man-aw ... lity-suit/

Tuffytown
Herd Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:09 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Tuffytown » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:48 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
KathyK wrote:Perception is not reality when it comes to facts. It's distressing that I have to point this out to you.


It's distressing that you think that "facts" are what dictate what people believe. People tend to believe what they perceive are facts - regardless of the accuracy of those facts.


Sadly when asking "where have we failed" this goes right to the core.

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:48 am

myleetlepony wrote: So, to clarify, in my experience, US society, in general, views cops as "the bad guys".



if you are speaking of your experience compared to the entire US, that I can understand. I may have misinterpreted what you said and thought you meant the whole of US society, in which I disagreed.

CanadianTrotter
Herd Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby CanadianTrotter » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:07 am

WheresMyWhite wrote:
KathyK wrote:Perception is not reality when it comes to facts. It's distressing that I have to point this out to you.


It's distressing that you think that "facts" are what dictate what people believe. People tend to believe what they perceive are facts - regardless of the accuracy of those facts.



Oops.. the new "Like" feature is too close to the quote feature, I "Liked" your post by mistake.

Yes, some people do "tend to believe what they perceive are facts-regardless of the accuracy of those facts." You also said in a previous post that, "I won't expend much effort trying to convince someone else that does believe in FOX".

What you have just said is one of the many answers to the original question of this thread... "Where have we failed?"

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1122
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Where we have failed....

Postby Chancellor » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:04 pm

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Apparently, more than a few people on Facebook ALSO think many LEOs are painted with a bad brush.


Return to “The Observation Lounge/ Cookbook Forum even Hot Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 37 guests