Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

fergusnc
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Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

Postby fergusnc » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:14 pm

So, are there indicators that a gelding may have either held onto his equipment for awhile or been a breeding stallion? Fergus was gelded between 1.5 and 2 years old in order to try to wait out an undescended testicle...didn't work and the vet had to do the "go fishing" operation....and he is very suave with the ladies and cannot be turned out in a mixed herd due to his possessive behaviors re: the mares. He is herd leader all the way. But....

Dallas is an unknown. He was at the rescue for 4 years before I got him. I believe he arrived there as a gelding. The vet guesses him to be 10 years old now. I have had him 1 year. He is super submissive with Fergus, was complete low man on the totem pole in a herd of 6 horses at the rescue. I believe they occasionally had all herds together in the really big field and they mentioned other geldings having their own bands but nothing like that about Dallas. However...

That little pony, ummm, "entertains" himself quite often. He will just be walking out of his stall, pause 10 feet out of the barn, and here we go. Even if he doesn't, ummmm, do anything with it, I have noticed he will show his excitement somewhat regularly when I curry or scratch his butt, and even a few times while picking out his back feet. It's totally different, and noticeable, from when he is just relaxed.

Is this just him, or does it correlate at all to a possible history? Not that it matters, just curious. Fergus my cassanova doesn't do this hardly ever, can't remember the last time. I will say that even though submissive, Dallas is the one who matches over to any visitor or out of place thing, sort of demanding to know who/what it is. When he first came and was uneasy in the move here, he charged people a few times when they entered his field. He has gotten really upset when dogs show up outside his fence...I guessed a bad experience before me but I guess it could just be territorial behavior...or both. He is very much a neck-snaker/face maker as a default mechanism to say "go away" to humans, though that has improved 95% just with building our relationship. He is very mouthy, and that has taken work. And he was also quick to swing that hind end when I first met him, though he only actually fired 2 out of a lot of times, but now that has become his way of letting me know he needs an itch scratched, and he politely repositions as opposed to swinging the weapon around. Not that those behaviors are exclusive to any gender status, just adding info. My biggest wonder is about how many times I end up asking him to please put that thing away.... :lol: :oops: He is super cute, well put together, and some QH folks that see him have independently and spontaneously pondered the possibility of foundation QH. Though he could just as easily be a complete, cute Heinz 57. And we all know that, unfortunately, less than desirable conformation and bloodlines are being bred all day long....so that doesn't really tell us anything.

What say you, you owners of stallions, ex-stallions, or enthusiastic geldings?

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StraightForward
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Re: Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

Postby StraightForward » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:20 pm

fergusnc wrote:That little pony, ummm, "entertains" himself quite often. He will just be walking out of his stall, pause 10 feet out of the barn, and here we go. Even if he doesn't, ummmm, do anything with it, I have noticed he will show his excitement somewhat regularly when I curry or scratch his butt, and even a few times while picking out his back feet. It's totally different, and noticeable, from when he is just relaxed.


The gelding I had when I was a teenager would do that. One of the younger adult riders at the barn would tease me and I'd get all embarrassed. :lol: Yeah, hanging in the showmanship class was a real problem with that one.

Current gelding - I bought him at 2.5, and discovered about six months later that he was cryptorchid as he went from sweet gelding to scary aggressive stallion behavior :shock: In retrospect, this explained why the normally sweet gelding - who was an ex-breeding stallion - that he was turned out with right after I bought him wanted to fight him and ran him into a fence. Anyway, he got the cryptorchid surgery early in his third year, and has never had any stallion behaviors since. In fact, he very rarely shows his junk, and I've never seen him "entertaining himself" as you say. :lol:
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

Postby Literiding » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:32 pm

Sex hormones are an extremely complicated process and not all confined to the gonads. In the normal course of affairs, the adrenal glands also produce small amounts of testosterone which can be the culprit of stallion/male behavior if the adrenal gland is over active. So I would suggest a test of how much testosterone is actually in his system based on the recommendation of your vet. The results may have several possible outcomes. 1) Adrenal glands are producing enough testosterone to elicit male behavior. 2) Testosterone levels are low but his brain maybe overly sensitive to the hormone. 3) The behaviors are not related to hormone levels. Remediation strategies will be dependent on your evaluation of the test results.

I’ve owned four “pet” stallions (not involved in a breeding program) and I’ve found them very satisfying equine companions. I’ve owned a miniature stallion, a Shetland pony stallion, and two Andalusian stallions. In general, a stallion can learn to compartmentalize their reproductive behaviors to specific situations. Once they learn this, you can take them most anywhere and most people only figure out your horse a stallion only by an anatomy check. But the one thing they never let go of is the “paternal” behaviors, their need to protect and direct. If there are foals about, you’ve got to watch them carefully to ensure their need to protect a foal isn’t activated by a dog or careless human. My Shetland stallion considered human children as foals and when one was given to him, he would take extremely good care of the child even if other horses including mares in season were about. The stallion handler always has to be aware of the stallion’s behavior and alert for unexpected paternal behaviors.

I had a Thoroughbred gelding who was an OTTB and his sex drives were entirely eliminated by the gelding. He was gelded at 18 months according to his TB papers, but he was the most contentious horse I’ve ever met, his idea of getting along with other horses was starting a fight. When I had to board him and my stallion pony while doing military things, I’ve had two different barn owners tell me that my pony stallion was welcome back anytime, he was a jewel. But they would not accept the Thoroughbred gelding - ever! He was the only horse I’ve ever met that didn’t like women either. He didn’t do anything dangerous, he just ignored them completely when they were trying to handle/work with him. It took me two years to develop a working relationship with the horse, but once he gave me his heart, he was very loyal and predicable - as long as you didn’t turn him out with another horse.

My current horse is a Friesian who was allowed to go feral in a pasture for eight years. I was told his owner bought him as a yearling and discovered that he was too much horse for her skills and she basically abandoned him in the pasture. As a eight year old stallion, he got loose and had a romp. As result he was gelded and went through several owners in short succession before I got him. Even though he was gelded very late, his drives are completely gone and he is the gentlest affectionate horse I’ve ever owned. And works very, very hard to do what is asked of him.

So the lesson is that there is a great deal of variability in equine behavior in response to hormones or the lack of hormones. The “display” has two general reasons. The first is to demonstrate to the mares he is available and willing. The second is a response to an epicurean good feeling, i.e. scratching.

My advise to first time stallion handlers is that stallions are creatures of habit and you have to instill in them a “habit of obedience.” But like little human boys, they don’t handle nagging well. They also don’t handle being “part of the herd” well, they form very strong “friendships” with the human who handles them but will only tolerate other people because their “human” will get upset if they don’t behave properly (the habit of behaving). People can either handle a stallion or they can’t, my observation is strong willed people usually do well with a stallion or gelding behaving like a stallion where as those without the courage of their convictions, the stallion tries to make part of HIS herd. But the final rule is, if you don’t like a behavior, don’t accept it, correct him every time. Never ever loose control, but stallions respect that humans can loose their temper — pin their “ears,” and they will avoid situations where their human “pins their ears” at them including inappropriate displays.

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Re: Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

Postby fergusnc » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:32 pm

Literiding, wow, so intersting....thanks for all that info.

You mentioned a few things that made me smile....Fergus, the one gelded at 1.5-2.0 years of age, loves foals...could watch them all day. I used to joke that he thought every baby was his. One day I was riding in the arena across the width of an average driveway from a paddock where a mare was just turned out with her foal. All was fine, until the barn owner's friendly dogs arrived (and Fergus LOVES dogs)... the kindly labradoodle wandered into the paddock and Fergus must have noticed. Mama and baby were unconcerned but all of a sudden my horse stopped underneath me, bowed up, bellowed, snorted and completely forgot I was up there. I got his brain back and went about our work but he remained concerned...even though Mama was fine with the familiar dog around. Makes so much sense now. I also remember him at age four (he will be 20 next month) and doing a few things that made me feel very protected. Then my trainer pointed out that he essentially thought of me as one of his mares, and that really wasn't something to saw "awwww" about...and you're right, he has really made me work hard on being more take charge and consistent than I have even had to be with other horses. I tell people often that he is in denial that the gelding surgery ever happened. 8-) And we did testbhis hormone levels, based on vet's observations of his behaviors. He was the high end of normal for testosterone. The odd thing is, when he was about 7, he went out with a late teenaged gelding who had been a breeding stallin until age 8 or so. That guy ignored all geldings, preferred to be with mares, and was always in charge. When Fergus joined the herd, there was no drama, but Fergus assumed leadership without any scuffles. We have always called him a very benevolent leader. But that other gelding was absolutely his right hand man, and we would watch them hand off duties to nap, or patrol, or escort kids to catch their horses in the herd while keeping a rude gelding from running them over. Animals are fascinating!

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Re: Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

Postby Baroque » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:06 am

I had Zeus gelded at over 5yo in November after coming back from being collected at the AI facility after all the semen I needed was frozen and it didn't seem particularly fair to keep him as a very frustrated entire for the rest of his life - he had an extremely high libido and his future breeding activities would be very minimal.

He has relaxed into gelding life very well and last week we introduced his mother into his paddock so he had a friend in with him again. He missed Merlin really badly after he was PTS and was a lonely grumpy chap for a long time. He still shouts at the ladies a lot and sounds like a stallion but he has lost a lot of the stallion behaviour now and is a lovely quiet sane chap to be around.

This week he has made friends with his mum again and they have started grooming each other so she's not trying to kick him to bits anymore. :lol: :roll: But she will discipline him if he gets unmannerly which is why I put her back in with him instead of one of the other tarts who may encourage "other" behaviours.

I'm really pleased because he needs a companion and the company, so will start putting some of the other ladies in with him over the next few months for a bit of variety. 8-)

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Re: Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

Postby westisbest » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:15 am

Literiding, that is a great little info sharing, more than I've ever read about gelding/stallion behaviour.

I've posted here before that my now 24 yr old Hanoverian was imported as an approved stallion. He live covered mares or at least one, then was gelded around 6. He has a true stallion mind, was the alpha leader from hell in the herd. He is now in a paddock fully electrified beside a 6 yr old PRE stallion, they are buddies :))).. very cute to see actually. But seems like my old dude has gotten a new lease on life or testosterone surge since we've had the PRE, he, my guy, has been dropping and yea, locked and loaded lol... when near mares. We actually have 7 mares 3 geldings and 1 stallion on the property. Not sure if the high mare count is making the geldings more amped? My friend's 7 yr old gelding lives in the field with 5 of the mares and definitely displays the herding protective behaviours. But looks at my old man like, yea you could take them all away in a heartbeat. I prefer the stallion behaviour to mares but that's me, not for everyone.

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Re: Umm, "Delicate" question about gelding behavior...

Postby khall » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:59 pm

I've owned and handled stallions for years. Stallions are very sensitive fellows that need firm but fair handling. Be very black and white over behavior but never nasty about it (usually). Both geldings and stallions will get "happy", usually geldings will play a bit and then put it away. Often geldings will do this during grooming or just hanging around. Stallions more so hanging around, usually because they have been disciplined to keep their equipment put away unless doing their duty. Some long time gelded stallions will happily let go of their libido, some will keep their instincts intact especially in mixed herd situations. My gelding now will get happy especially when being groomed and I know he was gelded early, 9 months, because I bred and raised him. It is just male behavior, he has NO interest in mares whatsoever other than being their play buddies.

In my experience in raising foals off and on since '89, ALL horses tend to go gaga over new foals! Geldings especially. When I have a new foal on the property it takes about a week for everyone to calm down and quit acting the fool over the new baby. Quite interesting actually. I also find geldings make better babysitters than mares do. They are more tolerant of foal, yearling, baby behavior and will play with them.


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