Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

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Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Chancellor » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:02 pm


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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:35 pm

That whole "fearful, talentless amateur" thing was rough. It hurts 0 people and horses to have 2'6" classes in shows. The lower levels keep the upper levels financially viable, same as in dressage. Doesn't hurt me at all that there's an Intro level now in recognized shows. Really, it doesn't.

Mid-way through the article, she answers a question comparing some of the newer younger riders to Madden/Farrington/Ward, and (paraphrasing here) says that since the new crowd has only ridden really nice fancy horses they're not as strong condenders as the old guard. Kessler trained with Prudent for many years; in all her time with Katie, there wasn't an opportunity to put her on a green or otherwise imperfect horse? Hm.

The whole tone of this piece hit the wrong chord for me. It felt out-of-touch with the history of the sport.

McLain Ward touches on that topic in his rebuttal to Katie Prudent's interview:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/in- ... g-evolving

If (general) you think the highest levels of equestrian sport have been accessible to all levels of income 5-10-15-20-30-50-100 years ago, you're deluding yourself. It's always been expensive. What has changed (maybe) is that the lower levels are seeing $$ scope creep as well.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:44 pm

I think it was unrelentingly negative and bitchy and you should post McLain Ward's rebuttal.

No need to sneer at the grass roots and pleasure rider just because she was a big shot.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Benatus » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:10 pm

Look at that tasty direct release. I see people propping their hands on the crest in x-country.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby StraightForward » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:13 am

I don't think the fearful, talentless amateur (like me, hi!) has anything to do with their ability to develop top riders and put together a good team like she is fretting about.

The first category is mostly made up of people who have jobs, and perhaps had to set riding aside for awhile for college, career, kids, etc. I don't think your standard 40 year old re-rider has delusions of making the Olympics, and I don't see the harm in that person buying whatever horse she likes and doing 2'6" courses or training level tests or whatever. It has exactly zero to do with the country's ability to bring up young, top-level riders. Except that if negative, bitchy trainers cause that re-rider to leave the sport, they may take their talented kid with them and do something else, shrinking the potential pool of future team riders. Also, the idea of an amateur buying in to some level of success seems rather opposite of the stereotype in dressage of the amateur buying the fancy WB whose gaits she can't ride. I suppose both could be true, but I'm skeptical that a fearful, talentless amateur would even be able to manage a top jumper around a low course. I don't think I'd try.

Also, talent is an innate thing right, so why does she care if we in the talentless pool aren't more brave and hardworking? We'd still be talentless, right? :lol:
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby kande50 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:30 am

Chisamba wrote:
No need to sneer at the grass roots and pleasure rider just because she was a big shot.


It certainly comes across as an attempt to draw attention to herself and her past accomplishments, which may be why it doesn't seem to be generating the kind of feedback she may have been hoping for?

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby StraightForward » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:58 pm

I've been thinking about this (and honestly, read the second half of the interview after posting), and if her concern is really bringing along internationally competitive riders, instead of putting down the rich people who can buy a nice horse and want to go get their nails done after they ride, why is she not asking the question: "How can we find those scrappy, barn rat kids who have the drive but don't have the bankroll, and get them the right horses and instruction so they can really excel?"

Also, what is her point about Jessica Springsteen not being as good because she's only ever had the best horses? It's not like she's going to need to make a career of fixing problem horses, or the Olympics is suddenly going to turn into an OTTB makeover competition. I'm pretty sure she'll continue to have the very best horses to ride, and she's damn' good at riding them.

The whole thing is just another flavor of nostalgia about how everything was better "back in the day" and "kids these days... we walked up hill both ways, blahblahblah."
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby amygdala » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:00 pm

THANK YOU, STRAIGHTFORWARD!! you may be a afearful talentless rider, but i'd say you nailed it on this page! :lol:
(tho i would add that Prudent's stated "love" for horses is kinda suspect--it's my impression that high-level show horses don't lead very nice lives)

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby PaulaO » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:08 pm

I read the article and listened to the podcast, and my impression is that she is putting a lot of blame on the trainers who coddle their rich students and don't teach the basics of horsemanship. I don't think she's putting down the entire population of amateur riders, but is nostalgic for "the good old days" of barn rats and kids who wanted to canter bareback on any horse. Times have changed in all aspects of life. Older people (like myself) complain that kids aren't free range, and that parents helicopter. Things are different now and the horse world has changed. But even in the good old days, money has bought the way to the top. But even if you bought the most expensive, well-trained horse (whatever discipline), you still have to ride the thing. There are no set and go buttons.

Truthfully, I don't get her agenda except a longing for things the way they used to be. Which aren't necessarily any better.
Last edited by PaulaO on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:24 pm

PaulaO is getting more what I saw out of the article.
What I see today is kids who want to come and ride and that is it. When I taught lessons, the first several lessons were not just getting on and riding but how to groom the horse, how to saddle etc. Several years ago, I took a lesson with my then boyfriend (now husband) for fun. I was surprised to show up to the barn and have my horse all saddled and ready for me. I think there is far too much of this nowadays.

Kids are overscheduled. Come on Pumpkin, time to leave the barn and go to piano lesson and then off to gymnastics. Times ARE changing but I don't think for the better. I see the hunter shows now and wonder if any of those people could jump around the "outside course" like I did when I was younger. I think horsemanship HAS been dumbed down.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:56 pm

I could maybe buy into that if Prudent herself wasn't part of the system that encouraged that behavior. Her barn was the model of the behavior she's now decrying. Selling those very same "fearful, talentless amateurs" the $$$$ horses. Full-service grooming/training required to board. Not to mention the showing.

I'm a youngish adult, and I bristle at the kids-these-days tropes. So I know I'm not unbiased from the start. However, there are plenty of riders out there who do understand and help manage their horses' wellbeing. And they're not all Irish, or hard-scrabble old-timers, or whatever. They might be priced out of the game by the system designed for those darn fearful talentless amateurs bankrolling their dismissive trainers, though.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby PaulaO » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:15 pm

Katie specifically states that she is talking about the jumper world, not the hunters.

I do agree with you Ponichiwa, that Katie helped create the world she now criticizes.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby boots-aregard » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:53 am

Yeah, we have to acknowledge if the trainers are in training for the money (selling expensive horses) and the coaches are in it for the wealthy students, Katie herself should be a little more thoughtful about the origin of the problems.

Fact is, the top 10% is still the top 10% whether it's the top 10 out of 100 riders or the top 100 out of 1000 riders. That there are 900 more riders is probably GOOD for the sport, even though they (talentless wealthies that they are) will never make it to top 10. Or, maybe the gripe is, they occasionally DO break into the top 10 because they buy nice horses? Do they outbid the top 10% so the top 10% have to ride second tier horses? That would seem to be right up Prudent's alley (that the truly top riders can ride "anything" and make it perform).

It's also true that demographics have changed remarkably over the timeline of her career. I think we all harbor a little nostalgia over that. Some larger proportion of the population had horses in their backyards 40 years ago than today. Some larger proportion of the population had horses right there within reach of town. That has changed in sheer numbers. The lives of youngpeople have changed, too, in many places. The ability of a 10 year old to walk to the barn, hop on her pony and gallivant all over town has changed for a whole lot of people to the seriously more restrictive "Show up at 2 p.m. for your lesson on a lesson horse." I remember with my girls -- they had 2 group lessons and 1 private a week during show season, and I kept thinking, "When do they have fun by themselves? When do they fart around with the horses just to play?" Because the other 4 days a week had swimming, and band, and service projects.

Eventing is also more dumbed down. The sport did that ON PURPOSE because enthusiasm for The Militaire was fading as the horse cavalry disappeared, and they had to figure out a way to increase fans/watchers/donors/attendees. Now the height of many an amateur's ambition is a thing call "Preliminary", which kind of says right on the label that it's just the starting point. It's the starting point for the serious riders, the pros. The amateurs needed lower stuff, safer stuff, but stuff still related to the Big Show in order to become fans and create jobs for all those trainers and coaches.

Expanding the base of the pyramid means expanding to many, many new people many of whom will have no talent at all. But they help hold up the pyramid, so why badmouth them?

I see some of her points, but take issue with plenty others.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:44 am

The jumper world used to only allow amateurs. Will Stienkraus, one of my favorite riders could never turn pro and had to ride rich peoples horses or he lost the right to compete. Snowmans owner couldn't compete at top levels in most events because he was pro.

Show jumping evolved from a world of rich people horses.

There had always been money in the top show jumping team. Always.

My personal opinion is that she is being pointedly witchy about the two rich girls making the top levels in jumpers.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Suzon » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:17 pm

I agree with Chisamba. She's being bitchy and not offering a solution. I worked in the industry when Katie was competing. It was all rich people on expensive horses. The only difference was there were more small barns with lower quality horses and lots of barn rats trying to live their dream on a shoe string. Those barns have faded away because parents are shuttling their children into the soccer (or other sports) pipeline. Horse crazy kids can't bike down the road and hang on someone's fence and moon at the horses until they finally get invited in to muck stalls and ride the ornery pony. That's what's missing. Occasionally that pipeline would produce some bootstap talent with enough drive (and help from sponsors) to lift them up into the "big leagues."

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:01 pm

Totally put me off, I don't respect her anymore. I also don't quite get the point- she trashes both the rich and poor, successful and fearful.

If she is so pissy about it, then she should tell all her clients to hold the horse for the farrier and vet, and start to engage in the program and take on students who need horses to ride but have no money.

As someone who is very careful what horses I ride- if you get hurt on a rogue horse, you can't do anything for anyone....so is that really "the good old days"?

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby StraightForward » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:33 am

Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:34 pm

StraightForward wrote:Good rebuttal article

Well pffft. Doesn't she just walk on water. I didn't like that piece at all. She's not the average amateur. Seemed to me that she just wanted to brag on herself. This quote makes me :shock:

"So you may not be aware that even affording a decent jumper who could step into the 1.40-meter jumpers is simply out of reach for most riders, and you may not be aware that spending $2,500 per horse show per horse means most people can show a few times a year rather than every week."

Oh really. "Most" people can only show a few times a year at $2500?? That's like 10k a year for shows. Anyone here spending that? No lady, most AA's have to skimp to pay $300 a show.

Prudent is right. There are many scared, untalented riders at low levels of all sports. So what! So what if USA can't be competive internationally or at the olympics. Why is that even of importance. So what if there are no more shows.

I'm getting sick of it all.

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:04 am

Admittedly, I really don't care about Prudent's world but I do wish we had a thoughtful training system for dressage in the US (club-based with highly skilled trainers and staff). My personal fantasy is to live somewhere with a great training center and lots of active serious adults. Perhaps we could work hard all year to put on a winter solstice quadrille? That would be so much fun to me.

OK, back to the topic: The upper levels of equestrian sports are truly weird in this country, as it is *so* sheer money dependent. Great trainers/riders need sponsors and often those are wealthy equestrians (who are not upper level, or are struggling to learn). I don't expect Bruce Springsteen's daughter to be good at bringing horses along or dealing with unruliness. But she is a talented show jumper.

In a slightly related topic, I do find the young women from quite wealthy families who stint for summers or beyond as working students at my boarding barn very amusing. To be honest, it is obvious who is truly skilled and has real options for an equestrian career in the future and who doesn't. And everyone knows it! (some can buy an OTTB for little and turn it around and sell for a good profit in a few months; some need an imported horse to do Training). So it goes!

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby kande50 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:12 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Admittedly, I really don't care about Prudent's world


It really does take the cake when it comes to first world problems, doesn't it. "Oh poor me, I can't afford a 6 figure piece of sporting equipment so that I can pursue my dream of trouncing the competition at horse shows." :-)

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Re: Katie Prudent on the state of horsemanship today

Postby redsoxluvr » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:12 am

I find both Prudent's and the rebuttal loathsome and here's why.

Both are the responses of people who do not live in the real world. Spending $2500 a few times to show per year is simply not feasible for most riders. We spend $400 three or four times a year and that's a huge expense. I don't know what planet these people live on, but the privileged attitude on both parties is just staggering to me. I didn't have a high five figure budget for my horses. I had a very low four figure budget and feel incredibly lucky to have them. I didn't get the sense from either person that they were glad to have the chance to have horses in their lives, and I find that sad.

The AA comments about not being able to afford a high jumper and not having the money to lease a big time eq horse are very telling. She presents herself as someone who is "average" financially, who works hard and deserves a chance. The working hard part, I get. Deserving a chance? Sure. But financially average?? No. Too many people in this country are struggling to make ends meet. Not being able to spend $2500 a weekend to show or 50K for a show horse however is not average. Feeling like an outsider because of it is just ridiculous.

I actually sort of get Katie's frustration about having riders at the top of the sport who have never had to struggle with a lesser calibre horse. Maybe Katie feels like they haven't paid their professional dues. Sadly, Katie is part of the culture who has created this hot mess. Paying huge money for horses can only be accomplished by people who actually have that money to spend. The culture that has created that is all as a result of the trainers and riders charging the money.

I think both parties need to take a good, long hard look at themselves and ask them why they got involved with horses in the first place.


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