Las Vegas Shooting

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Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Hayburner » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:43 pm

I'm a bit surprised that no one has posted anything about this extreme tragedy. I was there 2 weeks ago and security, at least at my hotel, was very high!
I sat up last reading everything I could find about the shooting, the victims and the shooter.

I read how the people came together to help others, black, white, whatever - race didn't matter - Lives Mattered.

Innocent people lost there lives for no reason, it was not an accident it was skillfully planned and plotted out...but, WHY is a question we will probably never have an answer to.

Morbid as this will come across - why did he not just take his own life, he has no notoriety for his crimes, he gained nothing. He hurt his own family including his mother with his actions.

Prayers to all those involved in this tragedy..

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Literiding » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:51 pm

WARNING -- Pet peeve

So far, as best I can remember, every mass murderer in the 21st century that has been reported in the press has seen a mental health professional in the period prior to the event. What did the mental health professional do or not do? While guns are the tool of choice for enactment most of the time, there are other ways a person intent on killing their fellow humans can use i.e. the French airliner that was flown into the ground by the co-pilot after locking the pilot out of the cockpit of the aircraft.

My very, very limited experience with mental professionals is notable for the non-professional behavior by the "shrinks." Twenty years ago, I worked for a state agency that provided mental health services to the indigent as an an IT guy. The MH staff was difficult to work with and the thing I'll never forget was working on a computer terminal in the MH building and hearing the MH staff making fun of their clients. That I could hear it in the other room meant the clients in the waiting room could hear the same inappropriate conversation. It was also there that I learned the particularly cruel game, "Steal a Gift." The staff played this game at Christmas and included some of the clients that were being used as office "runners." Needless to say, there were tears before it was over.

Different job and different time, I was running an IT help desk and had an entry-level help desk employee who had some psychological issues. While he creeped out some of the ladies, I just found him very eccentric - until he when to see a MH professional with his newly acquired health benefits. He was put on some medicine that made him extremely aggressive and resulted in several letters of counseling and instruction. I knew of the visit and prescription of a drug from one of his co-workers, but because of HIPAA and privacy regulation, I - his employer's supervisor - couldn't directly question him nor could I contact his MH person because of the law. I passed my thoughts to our HR person but nothing came of it and I eventually had to terminate his employment for cause.

There are people who can not be trusted with the lives of others and why can't the "system" address their problems as found?

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Flight » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:57 pm

I'm a bit curious as to what makes someone want to shoot a crowd of people, then shoot themselves. What's the point?

Being in Australia, with different thoughts around guns, I don't understand why people want to have such powerful guns unless it's to kill a lot of things in a short period of time. Does that mean everyone with these guns are going to shoot crowds of people???

Literiding thats a shame you witnessed such unprofessional behaviour. Mental health can be difficult to predict and I know in Australia, the public system is generally under resourced.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby PaulaO » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:01 pm

What type of weapons did the shooter have? Are they legal? I can't find those facts amid the stories of heros and prayers.

Never mind. Found the answer. Legally modified weapons. Instead of politicians rambling on and on, spouting platitudes, they need to focus on making these weapons illegal on a federal level. But maybe that's a topic for the other forum.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby heddylamar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:12 pm

On the topic of mental health, it is impossible to force an adult (parent, employee, spouse, neighbor, whoever) to see a psychologist or therapist without court involvement. I’ve tried in NH, VA, MD, and TN. Fortunately, the person is now in a prison of their own making, and in a place where, even though help is still refused, all the normal arsenal of knives and firearms is inaccessible. Permanently.

It still terrifies me that security guards were somehow convinced to turn a blind eye to a former Marine carrying 3 switchblades into a stadium full of kids and innocent people. (I chose that venue because all weapons would have to be left behind).

There’s always too many blind eyes and “oh s/he seemed like a nice person” that happened in retrospect after one of these events.

And, yes, the stock guns were legal.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Chancellor » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:25 pm

PaulaO wrote:What type of weapons did the shooter have? Are they legal? I can't find those facts amid the stories of heros and prayers.

Never mind. Found the answer. Legally modified weapons. Instead of politicians rambling on and on, spouting platitudes, they need to focus on making these weapons illegal on a federal level. But maybe that's a topic for the other forum.



I think it is okay to discuss here as long as we don't get a gazillion gun control threads in the Obs Lounge.
As a conservative, you may know that I support the second amendment. And I am not sure that making the weapons illegal on a federal level would solve the problem. Okay. This man wants to kill a bunch of people (or even just one). That in itself, is illegal. So, if we made the guns illegal, would that stop him from getting them? Sure, it might make it more difficult. But would that STOP this?

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Josette » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:29 pm

I'm still trying to understand how he was able to bring such a huge amount of weapons and ammunition into this hotel unnoticed???? Did the bell hops assist him in bringing his luggage to the room?

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Angfreda » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:45 pm

Josette wrote:I'm still trying to understand how he was able to bring such a huge amount of weapons and ammunition into this hotel unnoticed???? Did the bell hops assist him in bringing his luggage to the room?


iirc he was there for a period of time, ie he came and went over a series of days.
Add to that that many of these big hotels host conventions and meetings where people bring many, bulky items to set up booths and create displays and whatnot.... and I'm not sure it's too 'out there' that no one noticed.

I think making the modifications he used to make these weapons automatic illegal or regulated or at least monitored by ATF or DHS would be a start towards safer.
We're never going to be safe, we are never going to have 0 violence.
To me that is not a reason to not do *something* that will serve to limit, for example, the number killed.

45 wants to create jobs, right? Regulation = more people. Requiring those buying guns, large capacity magazines and/or modifications to have insurance = more jobs.

I've quoted a few times now, the words of David Wheeler, Sandy Hook dad... wrt the creation of the Constitution and the very specific, deliberate order the words 'Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness' are in in that documents.
g-Your pursuit of the latter should not infringe on the freedom of others to enjoy the former 2.

Finally, to the argument that 'regulations don't work'... I ask, then WHY have so many been in a tizzy for the last 8 years, convinced that Obama would rescind the 2nd amendment and was comin' for their guns?
If regulations don't work, why were so many convince that one would?
I think it boils down to sales of guns/ammo, and the fanning of flames by that industry to insure their prosperity.
And to me that is repulsive.

.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby PaulaO » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:59 pm

I saw a great post of FB about making it as difficult to buy a gun as it is to have an abortion. That would stop gun sales!

I used to not believe in gun control because it is mainly illegal guns that kill people. Now I am against the sale and ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Will that stop all the nut jobs? No. But it's a start.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Hayburner » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:40 pm

I do believe people have the right to bare arms - to protect themselves, even though I am sooo against guns. With the way things are in this country, many people do need additional protection and they should have the right and the equipment to do so should the need arise.

I am against guns because I am afraid of them. I would not even want to touch or see one. But, I do believe the type of guns, amount of ammo and add-ons should be restricted. What is the need for thousands of rounds of ammo or for a citizens to ever need an assault rifle?

But, would regulation/control have stopped this man? Probably not...if there is a will there can be a way. He had bomb making equipment too.

I still think it's odd that no one addressed his do not disturb sign for days...and never cleaned his room or checked to see what the heck was going on in that room that they did not want to be disturbed. Tho, should that have happened there would either be a deceased or held hostage maid.

There is the Senator in CA that tried a few years ago to get that add-on to make a rifle automatic banned, she went unheard. She has brought it to the table again, maybe now it will be banned.

It's just a very sad situation, the past month has been very turbulent in the USA with the flooding, hurricanes and now this.

I shy away from going to large crowd events - this just justifies my reasons....

From what we know there seems to be no reason for what he did - but, the FBI will keep digging and I bet they find something. Hos own brother didn't seem quiet right when he was interviewed. I don't know what it was - maybe it was the shock and stress of the situation, but he seemed off to me. This man did not snap - he carefully planned this out.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby WheresMyWhite » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:37 pm

Flight wrote:I'm a bit curious as to what makes someone want to shoot a crowd of people, then shoot themselves. What's the point?

Being in Australia, with different thoughts around guns, I don't understand why people want to have such powerful guns unless it's to kill a lot of things in a short period of time. Does that mean everyone with these guns are going to shoot crowds of people???


Right now, I think the authorities don't know why Paddock did what he did. With the inability to question Paddock, we may never really know why he did what he did.

There are an estimated 300M guns in the United States. Given that statistics, I highly doubt that everyone with a gun will shoot crowds of people. Not sure what "powerful" means to you. Just about any gun I can think of can kill someone. At the distance Paddock was shooting, smaller caliber rifles (say .22) or handguns would not be suitable due to distance. Shotguns also wouldn't be appopriate for the same reason, distance to target. Most rifles would do the trick. This would include just about every rifle suitable for hunting.

A November 2012 Congressional Research Service report found that, as of 2009, there were approximately 310 million firearms in the United States: “114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns.”


So, many guns of the type I am assuming you are considering a "powerful gun".

The whole "want" question I'm not going to deal with.

All the guns that Paddock possessed, as noted, were legal. They were "semi-automatic", one bullet per trigger pull. They were not converted to full auto, multiple bullets per trigger pull.

Paddock used something called a "bump stock" which is currently legal. The gun still requires one trigger pull per bullet. The bump stock simply gives the shooter the ability to pull the trigger faster.

One thing that I've rarely seen mentioned along with the use of full auto is they aren't like Hollywood likes to show them. Firing a gun full auto has a few associated results. One runs out of ammo faster. The gun barrel has a tendency to rise during shooting such that the pattern of hits goes up unless the shooter is very experienced and able to control the tendency to rise. The barrel gets *hot* (with enough rounds in rapid succession, hot enough that you couldn't touch it).

My thought when reading about the guns being fitted with bump stocks was 'why'. Anyone reasonably competent with a long gun and a good sight on the rifle shouldn't need anything that would require faster shots than what the rifle already gives them. It sounds like he was a big in what might be called 'spray and pray' ... shoot and hope you hit something. :(

I can't think of any legislation that really would have stopped this short of, IMO, draconian measures and realistically getting those passed would be difficult.

As of yet, nothing yet that I've seen released on how many, what kinds, where he purchased them (other than most in the last year I think).

If someone reloads their own bullets (many competitive shooters do), how would you know how many rounds someone had?

Paddock doesn't seem to have a history of any mental health disease other than wanting privacy in his home and he's not the only one. I've seen others than wanted privacy and put up fencing and gates to keep visitors and prying eyes out. Did that mean the residents were getting ready to go shoot someone? Probably not.

Hayburner, I can appreciate that you are afraid of them. Just because you are shouldn't mean others should be prohibited from owning them. Why are you afraid of guns? They don't jump off tables and shoot people. Perhaps learning more about guns, how they function, etc, might help overcome some of your fear. I fully respect someone not wanting to own guns. :) I also might want to own guns, not just for self defense, but because they can be fun to shoot. For me, for many years, nothing more satisfying than hitting my target :) (if it was practical for me to still shoot recreationally, I would) (No, no, no... never ever pointed even an unloaded gun at anyone!!)

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Koolkat » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:34 pm

When you're firing into a barrel of fish, I don't think accuracy matters. . . . not that accuracy is the point of these types of weapons, anyway.

People interviewed have talked about the adrenaline thrill of shooting a fully automatic weapon. . . of course they're now illegal thanks to RR, but these add-ons allow one to simulate the "feel". The number of rounds this guy shot/minute is horrific. If you can't make the semi-automatics illegal, you can make the upgrades illegal and it's not "gun control".

As to "WHY", I couldn't help but wonder if he was seeking some notoriety like his father, who was on the FBI "Most Wanted" list for a period of time.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Hayburner » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:57 pm

Wheresmywhite - I am afraid of guns because they can/do kill. Well, the gun doesn't, the person shooting it does...but, you know what I mean....It's a piece of dangerous equipment that only those trained should use. Its a danger to children when a guardian does not put it safely away, its a danger to an angered spouse, it's a danger to a person in depression, its a danger to a defenseless animal...it's not always in the "right hands".

My first husband was an avid hunter and had me shoot a gun once, I hated it and never did it again. I got no thrill out of it.

Koolkat - As for notoriety like his father, if that was the case, he's not here to enjoy his notoriety. HE was a weak spineless man, a nothing who took his own life because he didn't have the B@@ls to accept the fate he dealt himself! Whatever money this so called millionaire had should be donated to the hospital, ems, police, victims so maybe some good could happen for those affected by his action. I wouldn't want a dime of it in exchange for what he took from me, but it should go somewhere to help defray the costs involved.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:34 pm

No, that modification to the gun is very very illegal!

There are many kind of gun owners, so please do not lump everyone into the same category (ie- all support the same thing, all conservative, etc etc) Remember that there also many ways to "own guns"- hunting, collecting historical guns, target shooting/sport, protection, etc.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Tanker-yanker » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:48 pm

Angfreda wrote:

Finally, to the argument that 'regulations don't work'... I ask, then WHY have so many been in a tizzy for the last 8 years, convinced that Obama would rescind the 2nd amendment and was comin' for their guns?
If regulations don't work, why were so many convince that one would?


Because regulations only work for those willing to obey the regulations. Those in a tizzy would have obeyed the law and lost their guns while the nuts would have done what they wanted. Laws are only for the law abiders.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:07 pm

Ryeissa wrote:No, that modification to the gun is very very illegal!

There are many kind of gun owners, so please do not lump everyone into the same category (ie- all support the same thing, all conservative, etc etc) Remember that there also many ways to "own guns"- hunting, collecting historical guns, target shooting/sport, protection, etc.


That modification is not illegal. Until recently you could buy kits for <$40 online at even some major sports & outdoors retailers (Cabella's, etc.). There is now a potential bill circulating in Congress to prohibit the sale or manufacture of bump stocks, but that is the first federal legislation against that device.

I'm alarmed that there are more guns in the US as there are adults. That's an alarming statistic.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Flight » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:27 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:So, many guns of the type I am assuming you are considering a "powerful gun".


Agree, and in this case I mean being able to shoot a lot of bullets over a short period of time, harming a great number of people.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Angfreda » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:48 pm

Tanker-yanker wrote:
Angfreda wrote:

Finally, to the argument that 'regulations don't work'... I ask, then WHY have so many been in a tizzy for the last 8 years, convinced that Obama would rescind the 2nd amendment and was comin' for their guns?
If regulations don't work, why were so many convince that one would?


Because regulations only work for those willing to obey the regulations. Those in a tizzy would have obeyed the law and lost their guns while the nuts would have done what they wanted. Laws are only for the law abiders.


The ones I know don't now obey the laws so their tizzy doesn't strike me as 'suddenly they will have a conscience' .
Would some? Sure. Great.
But lets not ignore the financial incentive to stoke the 'they're comin' fer yer guns!' fear.
It worked during Obama's presidency.. and they're buying them again, and the stocks are going up.... So maybe some thought needs to be paid to the idea that gun owners are being 'played'?

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby boots-aregard » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:24 am

Tanker-yanker wrote:
Angfreda wrote:
Because regulations only work for those willing to obey the regulations. Those in a tizzy would have obeyed the law and lost their guns while the nuts would have done what they wanted. Laws are only for the law abiders.


Which sort of raises the question of why we even have a congress, don't you think?

You can't make a jillion laws on one hand and then say laws don't work on the other.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Chisamba » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:13 pm

boots-aregard wrote:
Tanker-yanker wrote:
Angfreda wrote:
Because regulations only work for those willing to obey the regulations. Those in a tizzy would have obeyed the law and lost their guns while the nuts would have done what they wanted. Laws are only for the law abiders.


Which sort of raises the question of why we even have a congress, don't you think?

You can't make a jillion laws on one hand and then say laws don't work on the other.


please dont change the quotes to make the wrong person say the wrong thing. its rude

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Chisamba » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:28 pm

Hayburner wrote:Wheresmywhite - I am afraid of guns because they can/do kill. Well, the gun doesn't, the person shooting it does...but, you know what I mean....It's a piece of dangerous equipment that only those trained should use. Its a danger to children when a guardian does not put it safely away, its a danger to an angered spouse, it's a danger to a person in depression, its a danger to a defenseless animal...it's not always in the "right hands".

My first husband was an avid hunter and had me shoot a gun once, I hated it and never did it again. I got no thrill out of it.

Koolkat - As for notoriety like his father, if that was the case, he's not here to enjoy his notoriety. HE was a weak spineless man, a nothing who took his own life because he didn't have the B@@ls to accept the fate he dealt himself! Whatever money this so called millionaire had should be donated to the hospital, ems, police, victims so maybe some good could happen for those affected by his action. I wouldn't want a dime of it in exchange for what he took from me, but it should go somewhere to help defray the costs involved.


Are you afraid of cars? i do not have to look up the statistics to know that they are dangerous when they are not operated correctly, and i feel sure that the statistics support that they are the number one killer. It peeves me because people will say, if you fall of your horse and get hurt, oh you should stop riding, but no one ever says after a car accident, oh you should stop going in cars.

cars are used by madmen to kill others
cars are used in rage to hurt an maim
cars require licenses and regulations that are routinely ignored with adverse effects on the innocent.

so I ask without irony, the question is why are we so complacent about car deaths, and so horrified about gun deaths, ( even if the car death was a mass murder?) be it a car bomb, or a car mowing into humans. I had to notice that in the past three incidences of car terrorism, no one talked about regulating vehicles, the means of the killing was not even discussed except at an explanation. everyone assumed that vehicles were already regulated as much as possible, and that the actions of the killer needed to be addressed.

Now as to the tragedy, did any of you see the photo of the guy, stuck in open space with his wounded friend, shielding her body with his. I do not know who they were or what became of them, i just hope they both survived, but that represented the american to me. The human who displayed extraordinary courage in the face of unexpected danger. There were hundreds, perhaps thousands of those, and only one killer.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Angfreda » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:46 pm

Chisamba wrote:
Hayburner wrote:Wheresmywhite - I am afraid of guns because they can/do kill. Well, the gun doesn't, the person shooting it does...but, you know what I mean....It's a piece of dangerous equipment that only those trained should use. Its a danger to children when a guardian does not put it safely away, its a danger to an angered spouse, it's a danger to a person in depression, its a danger to a defenseless animal...it's not always in the "right hands".

My first husband was an avid hunter and had me shoot a gun once, I hated it and never did it again. I got no thrill out of it.

Koolkat - As for notoriety like his father, if that was the case, he's not here to enjoy his notoriety. HE was a weak spineless man, a nothing who took his own life because he didn't have the B@@ls to accept the fate he dealt himself! Whatever money this so called millionaire had should be donated to the hospital, ems, police, victims so maybe some good could happen for those affected by his action. I wouldn't want a dime of it in exchange for what he took from me, but it should go somewhere to help defray the costs involved.


Are you afraid of cars? i do not have to look up the statistics to know that they are dangerous when they are not operated correctly, and i feel sure that the statistics support that they are the number one killer. It peeves me because people will say, if you fall of your horse and get hurt, oh you should stop riding, but no one ever says after a car accident, oh you should stop going in cars.

cars are used by madmen to kill others
cars are used in rage to hurt an maim
cars require licenses and regulations that are routinely ignored with adverse effects on the innocent.

so I ask without irony, the question is why are we so complacent about car deaths, and so horrified about gun deaths, ( even if the car death was a mass murder?) be it a car bomb, or a car mowing into humans. I had to notice that in the past three incidences of car terrorism, no one talked about regulating vehicles, the means of the killing was not even discussed except at an explanation. everyone assumed that vehicles were already regulated as much as possible, and that the actions of the killer needed to be addressed.


We're complacent about car deaths?
When? Cars now have 3 point seatbelts in front and rear seats. Antilock brakes. Daytime running lights. Airbags. We put infants in $$$ rear facing car seats. We put toddlers in forward facing full car seats. Kids until they are about 80# need to be in booster seats. Kids under 100# are supposed to be in the backseat.

What carbombs and trucks driven into crowds show is that, compared to some jerk with automatic [of his own making] weapons, shooting down on a crowd, with unlimited access to ammunition rounds, the car/truck is FAR less successful at killing lots and lots of people without getting your hands bloody or even anywhere near the people you are mowing down.

A plane worked. But then we put limitations and restrictions in place to prevent that. Why? WHY NOT!
Seriously, why not?

Most people use cars and trucks every day. Not all, but more than those who use guns everyday.
Reducing the incidence of injuries when using a car has been and is still something that is a big portion of auto design. It's a huge, innovative industry. That so many use them every day, and a comparatively small number are injured or killed by them [relative to how many are used] is to be lauded. And yet we continue to innovate. We now have cars that park themselves, cars that alert you to lane departure, cars that brake for you...
Why? To reduce incidents.

WHY would we NOT TRY to do the same with another deadly weapon, a gun? I just. Don't. Understand. This.

There are risks with everything. WE can mitigate some of those risks. We will never remove ALL those risks. But we're stupid if we refuse to reduce them. Because, WHY NOT?

Will a helmet prevent a broken neck? Of course not.
But one still wears one because head injuries are more common than broken necks, and it's 'something' one can do to prevent SOME of the risk.

Chisamba wrote:Now as to the tragedy, did any of you see the photo of the guy, stuck in open space with his wounded friend, shielding her body with his. I do not know who they were or what became of them, i just hope they both survived, but that represented the american to me. The human who displayed extraordinary courage in the face of unexpected danger. There were hundreds, perhaps thousands of those, and only one killer.


And what a horror they will have to live with the rest of their lives even though they may have lived and saved that one person in a sea of 100s of others killed and injured. Maybe among those killed was the person who would cure a deadly disease... or someone who would give birth to the next Pope or POTUS. What a waste of potential among those 58 victims.
The America I love first tries to protect people from having to BE heroic. Dolce et Decorum Est.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:33 pm

Koolkat wrote:People interviewed have talked about the adrenaline thrill of shooting a fully automatic weapon. . . of course they're now illegal thanks to RR, but these add-ons allow one to simulate the "feel".


NB. full auto weapons are *not* illegal. One can still purchase one; the process is long and involved but it can be done. RR had nothing to do with illegality.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 imposed a statutory excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of full auto firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms.

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 which bans the civilian ownership of *new* full auto firearms. It does not prohibit the transfer of existing full auto firearms as defined by law.

Yes, FOPA was enacted during Reagan's term of office.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Hayburner wrote:Wheresmywhite - I am afraid of guns because they can/do kill. Well, the gun doesn't, the person shooting it does...but, you know what I mean....It's a piece of dangerous equipment that only those trained should use. Its a danger to children when a guardian does not put it safely away, its a danger to an angered spouse, it's a danger to a person in depression, its a danger to a defenseless animal...it's not always in the "right hands".


Hayburner, thank you for being honest in your answer :) I appreciate that you recognize it really isn't the gun that kills, rather than person using it who might kill but in all likelihood, never will.

All the things you say negative about guns could also be applied to motor vehicles or knives or baseball bats.

NB about the danger to a "defenseless animal". I assume you are referencing hunting? Motor vehicles are definitely a danger to "defenseless animals". How many small critters do you see squashed on the road, some intentionally? When big game populations are not managed, they also are a danger both of themselves getting hit as well as the potential danger, including death, of occupants of motor vehicles that hit them.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby redsoxluvr » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:14 pm

I did contingency-aka disaster planning- at a previous job. Basically I was in charge of planning for catastrophic events.
I spent many hours in training and development and spent time with law enforcement and SWAT. While this is not my
job any more I do have some experience to draw from.

There are two things that I would like to say based on my professional experience. One is that you can think you have covered every possible scenario and you will be disappointed to know that people will improvise. No one ever thought terrorists would fly planes filled with passengers into buildings until they did. No one thought someone would mow down scores of pedestrians on a city street until they did. No one thought someone would blow up a federal building with a homemade bomb until they did. No one thought this could happen, until it did.

The second is that is that if an individual is truly and unequivocally committed to their objective they will find a way. You can make things as difficult as possible but it will never stop every person who wants to harm others.

We need to stop holding objects accountable and start holding people accountable. We live in a time where hate is spewed daily via a 144 character tweet or a hateful meme. You want the world to be a better place? Great. Start with helping yourself. Help others. Turn the other cheek. Accept that others may have a different view than you, and you may both be wrong. Be a genuinely good person. Surround yourself with the same. Repeat as needed. You can never know when something like this will happen, but you owe to the citizens of Planet Earth to do your best.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:21 pm

The car vs. gun analogy is so interesting to me.

My car is legally licensed, taxed, and insured. It is inspected annually. I have to take a test to hold a license to drive it. My license can be taken away for a myriad of reasons from health issues to negligence of one form or another.

This is all deemed acceptable by all of us for the greater good of society, and would appear to make an excellent basis for the control of other dangerous items, would it not?

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Ponichiwa » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:34 pm

I get that guns don't fire themselves. Additionally, that it is unlikely that any law/prohibition/etc. will stop 100% of malfeasance.

However, this is a board of horse people. Make the wrong answer hard and the right answer easy. It should not be easy to kill 58 people and wound another ~500 in the space of mere minutes. Make it more difficult to access things that will enable mass murder, and we might just have fewer, less frequent, or less massive murder sprees.

We can throw up our hands again and say thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families, as has been done since Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech and Columbine and a host of others. Or we can say hey-- here's a pattern of "lone wolf" behavior that has enabled heavy casualties. What can we do to limit the impact of unpredictable events? Let's just for the sake of argument say that at any time, 0.01% of the population is capable of mass impersonal murder. In the US, that means there are 30,000 people who could conscience mass murder. Meanwhile, there are ~141mln semi-automatic rifles in the US. Let's again assume for simplicity that the ratio of murderous nutters in the US population is the same as in the gun-owning population, and that those same semi-auto rifles are evenly distributed amongst gun owners. That means there are ~14k murderers armed with the means to kill lots of people in a very short time.

Barcelona's vehicular terrorism attack killed 13 people. The London Bridge attack killed 8. This one guy sitting in a hotel room killed 58 people. That's nearly an order of magnitude more deadly than the recent vehicle ramming attacks.

Access to bomb-making supplies is limited by law. Access of motorized vehicles to massively populated public spaces is increasingly becoming limited (barricades, etc.). Why are guns taboo here?

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Flight » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:49 pm

To me it seems the incidence and magnitude of mass shooting in the USA is increasing. But nothing really seems to be done about it?? People seem to say "oh well, it's nutters and you can't control everything so move on." Make it harder for these nutters to acquire what they need.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Bip » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:10 pm

redsoxluvr wrote:One is that you can think you have covered every possible scenario and you will be disappointed to know that people will improvise. No one ever thought terrorists would fly planes filled with passengers into buildings until they did. No one thought someone would mow down scores of pedestrians on a city street until they did. No one thought someone would blow up a federal building with a homemade bomb until they did. No one thought this could happen, until it did.


Yea but with the prevalence of guns out there in the US and the number of active shooter massacres we've had, we can hardly say, "Wow, I never thought THIS would happen!" I mean we didn't anticipate the exact details because each case is different in execution (gristly pun), but we knew someone this year was going to take a gun and kill a bunch of people in a crowd. It happens every year.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Koolkat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:21 am

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Koolkat wrote:People interviewed have talked about the adrenaline thrill of shooting a fully automatic weapon. . . of course they're now illegal thanks to RR, but these add-ons allow one to simulate the "feel".


NB. full auto weapons are *not* illegal. One can still purchase one; the process is long and involved but it can be done. RR had nothing to do with illegality.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 imposed a statutory excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of full auto firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms.

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 which bans the civilian ownership of *new* full auto firearms. It does not prohibit the transfer of existing full auto firearms as defined by law.

Yes, FOPA was enacted during Reagan's term of office
.


Was not implying that guns were taken away from anyone, LOL.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Tarlo Farm » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:24 pm

As a gun owner, this obsession some Americans have with guns seems so bizarre. Then I remember the NRA Board of Directors is actually a group of gun and ammo manufacturers who have expertly brainwashed the stupid public and paid off the smart ones to orchestrate a near-perpetual state of hysteria that - according to them - can only be appeased by the possession of more weapons.
I used to be married to a gun smith and a regional spokesperson for the NRA. It was so interesting to see the mail he would get (this was 20 years ago) giving him the new talking points, and two months later see those talking points suddenly come out in the media and out of the mouths of the general NRA members.
I've given up. I don't know what it will take. Someone coming into Congress with a plastic weapon on automatic killing more of our Congresspeople? I don't know.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:11 pm

Koolkat wrote:
WheresMyWhite wrote:
Koolkat wrote:People interviewed have talked about the adrenaline thrill of shooting a fully automatic weapon. . . of course they're now illegal thanks to RR, but these add-ons allow one to simulate the "feel".


NB. full auto weapons are *not* illegal. One can still purchase one; the process is long and involved but it can be done. RR had nothing to do with illegality.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 imposed a statutory excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of full auto firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms.

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 which bans the civilian ownership of *new* full auto firearms. It does not prohibit the transfer of existing full auto firearms as defined by law.

Yes, FOPA was enacted during Reagan's term of office
.


Was not implying that guns were taken away from anyone, LOL.


Did I say you did imply guns were taken away? I surely didn't think so :)

FOPA didn't take guns away or make it illegal to own, it capped the number of full auto in "circulation".

NFA didn't take guns away or make them illegal to own, it put in place a "registration" process for full auto.

Wanted to clarify for those who think owning full auto is illegal. Not easy but not illegal to own one :)

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Koolkat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:25 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Koolkat wrote:
WheresMyWhite wrote:
NB. full auto weapons are *not* illegal. One can still purchase one; the process is long and involved but it can be done. RR had nothing to do with illegality.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 imposed a statutory excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of full auto firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms.

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 which bans the civilian ownership of *new* full auto firearms. It does not prohibit the transfer of existing full auto firearms as defined by law.

Yes, FOPA was enacted during Reagan's term of office
.


Was not implying that guns were taken away from anyone, LOL.


Did I say you did imply guns were taken away? I surely didn't think so :)

FOPA didn't take guns away or make it illegal to own, it capped the number of full auto in "circulation".

NFA didn't take guns away or make them illegal to own, it put in place a "registration" process for full auto.

Wanted to clarify for those who think owning full auto is illegal. Not easy but not illegal to own one :)

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Koolkat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:32 pm

"The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 which bans the civilian ownership of *new* full auto firearms. It does not prohibit the transfer of existing full auto firearms as defined by law"

1986 is not that new. Unless you're talking about birthdays. . . ;) You're missing the point about illegal and facetious "guns taken away". No matter, different points/semantic. :)
Last edited by Koolkat on Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting

Postby Koolkat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:40 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opin ... .html?_r=0

This piece brought to mind a comment from a Las Vegas gun dealer post shooting about getting rid of "add ons". His comment was that he was OK with it, and although it might be a "win" for the libs and dems (his words), it was not a big deal.


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