Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Josette » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:14 am

Ditto - scruffy the cat - I'm with you and would pass on fruitloops too LOL. There comes a time when you desire a more pleasurable, reliable, cooperative and safe riding partner. Maybe it comes with age but I would never take on another "project horse" - one with mental or physical issues. Life is too short to invest all the time and money. I would pass and leave those horses for someone who is up to those challenges. IMO don't settle until the right one comes along.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Rosie B » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:33 am

Scruffy that's wise.

I wouldn't even consider a (well started) horse that I couldn't ride w/t/c the first ride without feeling safe.

The horse world is full of people that are too scared to ride their horses. It happens easier than you think, and usually by ignoring your inner voice and listening too much to someone else's voice. Good for you for listening to yours.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:07 pm

Now I'm starting to feel bad about the Andi/QH cross. Not for me- he will never be for me- but if anyone out there is confidence-inspiring to a horse, I think the poor thing was really, really anxious. They had brought him down from a respected dressage trainer and threw him in a double twisted wire and were going to "teach him how to behave". I think he is just very, very anxious, but a decent boy with nice movement. He's listed at $10,500 and clearly there is room for negotiation in that price.
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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby khall » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:17 pm

scruffy he is cute but dang he is so out of balance no wonder he is worried! No way no how is he worth $10,000 or IMO anything close to that. Sigh I love the color I love the cross, he could be very nice. He needs someone who understands training not just getting the horse "round".

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby musical comedy » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:24 pm

khall wrote:scruffy he is cute but dang he is so out of balance no wonder he is worried! No way no how is he worth $10,000 or IMO anything close to that. Sigh I love the color I love the cross, he could be very nice. He needs someone who understands training not just getting the horse "round".
He is so worth 10k+ imo. That's pocket change. I don't know what people expect to get for 10k. It's unrealistic to expect much. Depends on how old he is and whether he vets out. He looks green with a rider not doing him any favors.

Scruffy, didn't you buy a ISH not too long ago? What happened to him? He was very nice looking.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:38 pm

khall wrote:scruffy he is cute but dang he is so out of balance no wonder he is worried! No way no how is he worth $10,000 or IMO anything close to that. Sigh I love the color I love the cross, he could be very nice. He needs someone who understands training not just getting the horse "round".


In all fairness, he's only 4 months under saddle!

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:52 pm

My tale of woe! I bought an ISH in 2015. Made all the mistakes a first time horse buyer can make. I learned so much from him and from that experience. Bought the first horse I rode, he had been "out of work" for "no fault of his own", and believed the (respected- ha) PPE vet when he said he was just exuberant on the lunge. So it turned out he was hugely anxious and also broken. He stepped off the trailer lame and never really got better. He also would bolt and scream he was so terrified. LOTS and lots of work later and I got his brain back, and got valuable groundwork skills, but he really was always NQR. I had several vets give me their opinions and finally brought in a lameness vet who said with his rads he NEVER should have passed his PPE in any way, shape, or form. I made plans to retire him and bought my OTTB when he got kicked in the knee by a paddock mate. It got into the joint and he went down pretty quickly. I had to put him down in May of 2016. And then my OTTB, who was a fabulous partner, developed his degenerative recumbent sleep disorder and kept collapsing. https://photos.app.goo.gl/uL5HZkWg54cBtbFM6

So umm- could I *please* have luck on my side this time? I would really like to own a horse for more than 2 years at a time. :-(



p.s. I did try another horse today. We will see how it goes. I'm trying to be cautious. He does check a lot of boxes.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby musical comedy » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:02 pm

Oh gee Scruffy. That is really a shame. You do deserve some good luck. A lot of us do. I hope the one you tried today works out. Hopefully it is close enough for you to try twice.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:06 pm

I'm riding him again tomorrow. :-)

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Beorn » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:49 pm

*like*

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:59 am

The price of horses here in the SE must be way different than NE. We found a lovely moving TB gelding (moves better than this Azteca shown) that had some showing under his belt and is safe for $4500. Big too almost 17hh. I've been looking for a few different friends over the years. Never spent more than $5000. The TB with good training will be a very nice horse. Another I found, an APHA gelding, shows WD and is a safe mount for his AA dad. Very special horse for $3000. Just ran across a WB g, 18, confirmed 3rd with good changes for $5000. If I would have had an extra 5 grand laying around I would have bought him in a heart beat even at 18. Lovely moving horse that looked like a gem to ride. When I look for people I look for temperament first and foremost, we've just been lucky that the movement was there in all of them as well. Most of my friends are older AA or timid AA riders and that is foremost in my looking at horses. The only one I did not have any say in is the TB/perch that is a boarder and ended up not being a good fit, so instead we are working with the mare to make her and her older AA fit better. Still a work in progress but man the mare has made great changes with the WIH we do. Rider is stepping up as well. Helps the mare is kind. We don't tend to look at strictly dressage trained horses though (with the exception of the 18 yr old), we look outside the sandbox. We did find a ASB g that was a really nice gelding for all of $1500 but he ended up not vetting. Bargains can be found here in the SE.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby heddylamar » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:38 am

Speaking of outside the sandbox ... I posted a seperate thread about Mom's search for a riding horse last week. Through a friend of friends (multi-links to seller) she found a reformed QH barrel racer in the Memphis area.

He's a cute little dun complete with dorsal stripe and brindle, 14.3-15 H (needs to be sticked), and totally laid back. She's a timid in the saddle (not on the ground), and was riding him last week at her trainer's farm, when the herd took off. He didn't even flinch, just kept mosing along.

He's got nice movement, much of which is undeveloped under saddle, so if Mom wants to get back into dressage, there's potential. Otherwise, he's perfect for her other pastime -- trail riding.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:45 am

That's great heddylammer! There are some gems out there for sure that won't break the bank.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:08 pm

You have to assume the horses who are out of work are out for a horse related reason. When I see those ads, if I was interested, I would ask the person to put the horse with a trainer for 3 months and if sound then I would do a PPE and if passed, retroactively pay for the three months training.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Josette » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:17 pm

Tsavo - why would a buyer commit to back pay training for a horse that may/may not work out? Aside from passing a PPE - say the rider still does not click or feel the horse is the right one. Buyer beware - carefully screen and research before even doing an actual visit which may be costly and time consuming for travel. Yes - There are folks who can find bargains as described but others need to follow their gut and trainers advice for when to pass. Horse buying and ownership IMO is a huge commitment and can be either a rewarding partnership or an expensive heart break.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:30 pm

If the horse passes the buyer commits to buying. I would only do this with an FEI draft cross mare. This method weeds out the 95% of sellers who know the horse is sitting due to a lameness or illness.
Last edited by Tsavo on Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:31 pm

Part of the issue in the Northeast is that land is at a premium so normal people like me have no place to easily retire a horse should something go wrong. Board is upwards of $1,200/month and retirement board is at the very least $200/mo. Not being wealthy I (and people like me) have to be very, very careful about the horses we buy. I can't risk an 18 year old or another horse pulled out of a field or even a $3,000 with a questionable medical history. So I have to pay for youth and soundness and something that has been in work. Of course there are sound $3,000 horses and sound $150,000 horses as well as broken $3,000 horses and $150,000 horses, so this is really an academic discussion.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:08 pm

I see your point, Scruffy.

Here, south of the Mason Dixon, I can get top quality retirement digs for about $400. It is one of the very few perks with keeping a horse here in this hothouse.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby musical comedy » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:46 pm

My views on horse prices have nothing to do with the Northeast. I've bought horses from all over, including Europe. I feel very confident in knowing what you can get for various prices.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:43 pm

Rosie B wrote:Scruffy that's wise.

I wouldn't even consider a (well started) horse that I couldn't ride w/t/c the first ride without feeling safe.

The horse world is full of people that are too scared to ride their horses. It happens easier than you think, and usually by ignoring your inner voice and listening too much to someone else's voice. Good for you for listening to yours.


Ditto this. The horse is cute, but ultimately it's better to be comfortable riding any horse you buy. I don't enjoy riding horses that evade backwards, regardless of what justification they may have for doing so. Backwards isn't safe.

I don't know anything about this horse other than that he looks cute and is in your neck of the woods-- may be worth a look?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3J4uK ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:10 pm

musical comedy wrote:
khall wrote:scruffy he is cute but dang he is so out of balance no wonder he is worried! No way no how is he worth $10,000 or IMO anything close to that. Sigh I love the color I love the cross, he could be very nice. He needs someone who understands training not just getting the horse "round".
He is so worth 10k+ imo. That's pocket change. I don't know what people expect to get for 10k. It's unrealistic to expect much. Depends on how old he is and whether he vets out. He looks green with a rider not doing him any favors.


THAT IS A NICE HORSE. awesome canter, good natural balance for that green

That horse is totally worth 10k, but being fall and things offer 7 and that is a STEAL.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Josette » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:49 pm

Ponichiwa - where did you find the advertisement for the horse in the video? Very cute 8-)

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:

I don't know anything about this horse other than that he looks cute and is in your neck of the woods-- may be worth a look?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3J4uK ... e=youtu.be


quarterhorse? looks cute. anyone know?

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Snork » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:14 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
musical comedy wrote:
khall wrote:scruffy he is cute but dang he is so out of balance no wonder he is worried! No way no how is he worth $10,000 or IMO anything close to that. Sigh I love the color I love the cross, he could be very nice. He needs someone who understands training not just getting the horse "round".
He is so worth 10k+ imo. That's pocket change. I don't know what people expect to get for 10k. It's unrealistic to expect much. Depends on how old he is and whether he vets out. He looks green with a rider not doing him any favors.


THAT IS A NICE HORSE. awesome canter, good natural balance for that green

That horse is totally worth 10k, but being fall and things offer 7 and that is a STEAL.


It doesn't matter if it's a steal or not. What this horse is "worth" (and he's easily worth 10K in midwest, no offense to all the TB lovers) and/or/in relation to what he is being sold for, is of zero importance because this is not Scruffy's horse.

She's not looking for a project horse. She's not a trainer or a professional rider. She can only have one horse. In this situation, the price is borderline irrelevant for the value calculation, certainly the bottom price. The overreaching consideration is the fact that the horse she buys is the horse she's going to ride. And she doesn't want to ride and own this one, so even if the seller PAID her to take this horse, it still wouldn't make sense.

At $1200 board plus training, an unsuitable horse of any price is an incredible waste. BTDT got a T-shirt, and I wish I had Scruffy's composure and self-awareness before I poured two years of 2K/month down the drain and almost stopped riding entirely.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Josette » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:36 pm

Snork - I totally agree with you about the boarding fees on an unsuitable horse. I have confidence Scruffy will stick to her priorities and keep to her agenda. She has learned some lessons from the past like some us here too. The rest of us are the window shoppers and get derailed with pretty pictures and videos. Scruffy - please ignore our tangents. :)

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:36 pm

...edited....never mind! I missed the part about not liking that horse
Last edited by Ryeissa on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:32 pm

Snipped:
Ryeissa wrote:well I didn't think this was a project horse? where did this all come from? We are talking about a pretty horse that has a nice canter. End of story.


The horse in the video is the same one that did this:
scruffy the cat wrote:I saw one today who was a total fruitloop. So cuckoo I got off after 3 minutes of going backwards and generally melting down. I don't need that. But poor horse. :(


That's definitely a project horse.

Additionally, that's why I'm wary of buying anything off video... a strong and/or tactful enough rider in the saddle can hide a lot of ills.

Edited on request but trying to keep the meat of the content there.
Last edited by Ponichiwa on Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:00 pm

ah. yes I was really confused with the various horses being discussed! sorry I missed that part. thanks for clarifying. Please delete my now non relevant post :)

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:03 pm

Snork wrote:It doesn't matter if it's a steal or not. What this horse is "worth" (and he's easily worth 10K in midwest, no offense to all the TB lovers) and/or/in relation to what he is being sold for, is of zero importance because this is not Scruffy's horse.

I agree. My comment (and I assume Rye's) were in response to something Khall wrote about price, not that we think that Scruffy should have considered this horse. I thought Scuffy was looking for a young horse. Young horses are project horses imo and not suitable for the average AA. I have no idea who Scruffy is or how she rides.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:04 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
Ponichiwa wrote:

I don't know anything about this horse other than that he looks cute and is in your neck of the woods-- may be worth a look?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3J4uK ... e=youtu.be


quarterhorse? looks cute. anyone know?


This one is a QH and $20k, if he's still available. Competed through Third.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:13 pm

"Additionally, that's why I'm wary of buying anything off video... a strong and/or tactful enough rider in the saddle can hide a lot of ills."

Very good caution, especially if there is a certain feel/fit you need as a rider on a horse. A good rider can make a not so trained (or soft) horse look very good.

I do think it's worth being patient for the horse that calls to you, OP. IMO, the price of the horse is relatively little compared to the amount of money I will pour into them year after year (assuming they survive!). I also feel it is priceless to have a horse that is quite safe (for me) but also interesting to ride/train. I never worry about getting on her after a long day of work or when I am tired or sick. I am also of the mind that the amount I'm willing to spend on a horse is equal or less than the amount of money I can throw away without pain.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:16 pm

So I don't mind at ALL that the discussion took a little detour. It has been fun going over the videos and hearing what people had to say. Fortunately, I'm enough of a grownup that I can have a nice academic discussion and not decide everything is about me, me, MEEEEE. :lol:

I actually think that Azteca *was* nice. I think he was terrified to be at the new barn- he had had this nice start under saddle with a dressage pro in Maine and then I can't imagine why but, he was sent down to a total Deliverance-style barn in MA and ridden harshly and thrown into a double twisted wire and a saddle that sat on his withers. If *I* had only had 4 months of training and was a sensitive horse, it would send me 'round the bend as well. Now I think someone should rescue him. He was definitely worth it. Not mean, just scared.

I did try a bunch of 4 year olds at a well-known WB breeding farm and while I didn't have the same terrible experience as the horse above, it was clear that I really would enjoy more a horse that had more under saddle experience. Then I tried, and offered for, a lovely 6 year old horse who sadly failed his PPE due to neuro issues.

Fast forward to today: I have tried a horse in PA 3 times this week and have made an offer. I've gotten to ride it, groom it, bathe it, and graze it so I have gotten a very good sense of his personality. The seller/instructor took a whole long bit of video today which included my best riding of him to date. I got home and found that she only THOUGHT she was taking video and had pressed the wrong button. Oh well! I have it in my head. The more I spend time with this guy, the more I like him.

Pre-purchase is on Friday. Wish me luck.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:17 pm

Oh and if anyone is in the area, I'm going to Dressage at Devon tomorrow to watch and shop if anyone wants to say hi.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:23 pm

Woohoo, good luck with the PA fellow! And have fun at Devon.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:24 pm

Scruffy, a couple of questions please. In the Azteca video, was the horse in the twisted wire? Is that the owner or agent riding?

Also, just wondering who you chose for your ppe vet. It's none of my business, so I understand if you don't want to say. Just curious if you picked my vet who is in Pa and I would highly recommend.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:36 pm

In the Azteca video he was still at the first trainer's- a well respected dressage trainer in Maine. It looks like he's in a KK Ultra. I swear the double twisted wire was rusty. The place was a disaster and it was not a surprise at all to me when the owner said that a girl had to be airlifted out of there last year after she fell off a horse and was dragged. All the horses were a little nutso, mostly, I'm guessing because of the way they were ridden. Supposedly "western" but that was no kind of horsemanship in anybody's book. It was really hard to watch and not horse friendly.

For a PPE vet I have used Kevin Keane's practice (Ashley Taylor) on my last horse. She's this current horse's vet so I can't use her but I did get to talk to her. She did a pre-PPE on the horse and was happy to talk to me in advance with the okay of the seller. I used Liz Arbittier for the horse that didn't pass the vetting 2 weeks ago. I wanted to use her again but she's at a conference until next Wednesday and that's really too far off for both me and the seller. So I'm going to go with Unionville Equine and also consult with my home vet. If you have any comments on that, feel free to PM me. I'm always open to opinions and discussion.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:47 pm

Ooooh good luck, Scruffy!

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Josette » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:03 pm

Scruffy - great to hear that you got in several rides and handling of this prospect. Sending good luck with jingles the PPE is clear. :)

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:20 pm

Oh I'm sorry about the twisted wire. From the initial video it looked like a very promising horse!? Anyways best of luck on the pre-purchase exam! Make sure you update us right away

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby khall » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:17 pm

Good luck Scruffy! I hope the PPE goes smoothly and finds nothing.

My comments re the Azteca were made taking into consideration the video (I personally thought the canter was so out of balance as ridden because he was way too deep, especially having only been US for 4 months) but mainly in response to Scuffy saying he was a nutcase when she rode him and the fact that that cross does not sell as strongly as full PREs. IMO he is worth about 1/2 of what he is advertised for, maybe.
https://www.dreamhorse.com/b/5/aztecas/ ... -sale.html just scroll down and look at the Azteca's.

I have not bought a riding horse, or any horse in many years now. I breed for my riding horses. Last horse I bought was a just weaned foal, Rip's dam in '95. But I do go horse shopping with friends but we look at way different horses than what MC or Scruffy looks at. Yet they are and have been valued members of their family and have been fun horses to own, ride and show.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:26 pm

LOL, if it clarifies, the horse I'm doing the PPE on is a WBx. The Azteca was totally not my type but it was close to home and I thought it was worth a look in case it was something I could live with.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby khall » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:50 pm

Good luck! I like a WB/TB cross myself better than full WBs (of course some of the drool worthy high $ WBs I would take in a heart beat, but never have a pocket book for them so I just look!)

I actually liked the Azteca's potential in movement I just did not like how he was ridden, but would NOT want to ride one that nutty and going backwards! The PREs can be very sensitive so I could see how he was having his mind blown based on your description. The full PRE I rode in Spain when I first got on him he felt like he had snakes under his skin! Was a bit intimidating:) I trusted the trainer though and damn I liked that horse once I got used to his sensitivity. He would not be for just anyone though.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:22 pm

This one is actually a WB/ISH cross, which suits me just fine having had an Irish horse before. I did look at full WBs but they didn't work out for one reason or another. Several of the 4-6 year olds were also off for various explanations. I wasn't delighted at the relatively high percentage of injuries or mystery lamenesses there were in the fancier horses I tried.

I agree, I liked the Azteca's potential in movement, which is why he was worth going to see. I like a sensitive horse but this poor thing was just in too bad a place. I can only imagine what was going through his head. :-(

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:48 pm

Let's hope for luck of the Irish! There are tons of ISH at my eventing boarding barn. Solidly nice horses--although with a hotness variation according to breeding---that I would be very happy to show in dressage. And man, can they jump! Lots of "Fernhill" marketed horses in our area. Any injuries seem to be due to extreme sports (more advanced eventing consequences) rather than simple conformation (soundness).

My sensitive mare (Lusitano-Trak) would end up pretty sad and crazy in the wrong hands, so I get that Azteca that you saw.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby StraightForward » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:08 am

Best of luck for a good PPE on this new prospect, Scruffy!
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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby LeoApp » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:23 am

HI scruffy - so sorry about your horse woes and your dog. :(
Good luck - I hope they accept the offer and that he becomes yours and is wonderful, sane and sound for many, MANY years to come!!

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby chantal » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:58 am

PPE jingles for you and this one!!

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:57 pm

Congrats? Saw your post on the other forum.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby scruffy the cat » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:26 am

Thank you. He passed his PPE today and will be coming home as soon as I can find transport.

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Re: Virtual shoppers, interested in another one?

Postby StraightForward » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:38 am

Yay! Of course you know the drill about posting pics and everything :D :D Any details in the meantime?
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