Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

kande50
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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:25 pm

Xanthoria wrote:Depends on your weather: Here in the west we get no rain March to October, and feeding a hard keeper on no grass is hell. Especially as a boarder - driving out to give extra feeds, hanging around for hours, huge feed bills... ugh!


True. We have lots of grass from May through Nov, and we like haying so put up way too much hay. I can even use hay for bedding for the harder keepers because it's more cost effective than buying shavings.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:49 pm

Xanthoria wrote:Depends on your weather: Here in the west we get no rain March to October, and feeding a hard keeper on no grass is hell. Especially as a boarder - driving out to give extra feeds, hanging around for hours, huge feed bills... ugh!


Yes!

Hay is THE biggest area of strife in any barn I have boarded at between BOs and owners.

its so hard to have a hard keeper as it adds so much stress on top of this area of contention Yes, I'm talking high dollar barns, every kind of discipline.

Pasture is not enough, we get decent grass but if you want to keep the weeds down and mow the grass isn't going to be high enough to provide a hard keeper enough forage. It also easily can add 100-200 in extra concentrates a month.
So no. No thanks
Hard keepers usually are more emotional and high stress horses, either by situation or temperament. Prone to ulcers and cribbing (generally)

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:31 pm

I'd happily take a grey, I've met some very nice Friesians, but I'd have to be persuaded quite hard to look at a draft cross, so to each their own.

Apart from the obvious, (soundness in body and mind, feet, large conformation flaws) my absolute hard no is for a horse that doesn't load or trailer well. Not ever dealing with that again.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Chisamba » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:53 pm

Did I say earlier, I worked on a farm with over 200 grey horses ranging in age from young to thirty something. Not one melanoma. But ONE study claims 85 percent of greys will have melanoma and suddenly everyone quotes it. I wonder if the study used all the same family?

When a bay horse gets malignant melanoma, funny how no one blames the color. Malignant type melanoma occurring in a much more general distribution across coat colors, most commonly bay horses, than benign neoplastic melanoma which does occur more frequently in black and grey horses (which have the same skin)

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Xanthoria » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 pm

Ryeissa wrote:It also easily can add 100-200 in extra concentrates a month.
So no. No thanks
Hard keepers usually are more emotional and high stress horses, either by situation or temperament. Prone to ulcers and cribbing (generally)


yeah I did the math once comparing my last two TBs - one a little porker, barefoot. The other a skinny supermodel with dreadful feet:

Fatty:
Hoof care: $0/yr (DIY)
Feed: $240/yr (ration balancer)
----------------
$240/yr

Skinny:
Hoof care: $2775/yr for fancy shoes every 6 weeks
Feed: $3,000/yr (Ultium, oil, alfalfa, Mg supp)
2x daily trips to barn: $3,650/yr gas because my barn won't do extra feeds...
-----------------
$9,425 a year

Those gas costs... oye... :shock: Not even gonna add up my personal time driving 25 mins each way and hanging around feeding that (pastured for his own mental health) horse...

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Xanthoria » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:13 pm

kande50 wrote:We have lots of grass from May through Nov, and we like haying so put up way too much hay. I can even use hay for bedding for the harder keepers because it's more cost effective than buying shavings.


You live in a magical, wonderful dream place... :shock: :mrgreen:

kande50
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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:27 am

Xanthoria wrote:
You live in a magical, wonderful dream place... :shock: :mrgreen:


Haha, except for the long, cold, snowy, winters. But, that's probably the only reason that so much of New England is still rural, so we build indoors, learn how to dress for the cold, and do our best to power on through it.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby scruffy the cat » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:38 pm

kande50 wrote:
Xanthoria wrote:
You live in a magical, wonderful dream place... :shock: :mrgreen:


Haha, except for the long, cold, snowy, winters. But, that's probably the only reason that so much of New England is still rural, so we build indoors, learn how to dress for the cold, and do our best to power on through it.


That, and we drink a lot.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:44 pm

Man I lived in a climate with a lot of winters but our grass still can't support true hard keeper in the summer.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Beorn » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:52 pm

scruffy the cat wrote:
kande50 wrote:
Xanthoria wrote:
You live in a magical, wonderful dream place... :shock: :mrgreen:


Haha, except for the long, cold, snowy, winters. But, that's probably the only reason that so much of New England is still rural, so we build indoors, learn how to dress for the cold, and do our best to power on through it.


That, and we drink a lot.


.. and complain bitterly.

kande50
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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:06 pm

Beorn wrote:
.. and complain bitterly.


I don't complain about the cold because I want to save it all for summer because I hate the heat so much.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby khall » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:19 pm

I hate the cold, so live in the SE where my fields make any horses fat, regardless if they are easy keepers or not. I have had to put mine on smaller and smaller pastures and in grazing muzzles (for the ones that will wear them) soak hay, no grain, just vitamin/mineral mix even my old girl wears a grazing muzzle and eats Triple Crown Lite. She is 23. We also cut hay off our fields but don't have so much that I use it for bedding! Course I don't have any that can eat without soaking it so...

We have grass from March to November usually.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Tsavo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 pm

They planted winter rye so hopefully the horses can eat that most of the winter.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby khall » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:48 am

No rye grass for my fat horses. Annual rye is so high in sugars, so while they love the grass and love the hay made from rye grass it is a big no no here. We do have some volunteer rye grass that will pop up in some of the fields which the horses happily will munch on. My guys will subsist on soaked bermuda hay fed multiple times throughout the day/night since the slow feeder hay nets do little to slow them down and I have to ration them for weight control.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:07 am

Obviously, I would take a grey :-) When I got Emi at age 12, I thought that the fact that she did not exhibit melanomas was promising. She has a few small ones now at 16.

Interesting how the west coasters find the hard-keepers a challenge. Here in the SE and especially lush Tennessee, I would be much more concerned about the easy keepers, as it is great to have a horse that I don't have to dry lot and muzzle all of the time. The extra care in the south to dry lot/muzzle can even cost as much as extra feed.

Tsavo, I know your ideal is a Clyde-x rather than any kind of draft, but regardless, do pay attention to PSSM symptoms as it is a condition all over drafts and frankly just across many breeds. I do think it is a bit of a disease of contemporary horse management (too much high sugar feed; not enough turnout/movement)---but clearly some individual are more prone to suffering from this condition. I have known more than a few TBs with PSSM, too, and alas it does show up in WBs also. You might not choose to test, but you can do some investigation that can give you clues such as:
-What kind of work schedule does the horse thrive on? (if the horse is out of work, you will not know)
-What weather suits the horse best? (many PSSM horses struggle in cold/damp conditions)
-How does the horse do when kept in a stall 24 hours (due to weather or injury) occasionally?
-How much turnout/graze works well for the horse? (some PSSM horses cannot have much graze; others benefit from constant turn-out)
-What diet is the horse on? Any changes in diet in the last year and what difference did it make to the horse?

Basically, mild PSSM can be manageable with the right care situation, but without it or due to inattention, it can be heartbreaking for horse + owner. When I bought my horse, her seller was not aware of my mare's PSSM. The only clue she shared was that the horse seemed to do better physically with a very regular work schedule (it was not a case of being high or crazy after days off). Now when I hear that sort of comment it would trigger my awareness differently.

And another shallow note:
Much as I love white snipes and stripes on the nose, here in the south they are very prone to sunburn.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Chisamba » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:55 am

Piedmont, I dont think it's new, back in the "old days" it was called Monday morning sickness, azoruria, et al. Very prevalent in draft x. Good thing to mention.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Chisamba » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:58 am

Piedmont, I dont think it's new, back in the "old days" it was called Monday morning sickness, azoruria, et al. Very prevalent in draft x. Good thing to mention. Most common in drafts, quarter horses and warmbloods.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby khall » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:34 pm

PSSM1 is not usually found in Shires or Clydesdales,
From https://ker.com/equinews/update-pssm-horses/
She noted in her presentation that the highest prevalence of PSSM appears to occur in draft horses derived from Continental European breeds (90% prevalence of PSSM in Trekpaards, a draft breed, with 40% of tested Belgian Trekpaards being homozygous for the trait). In contrast, she said the prevalence of PSSM is low in United Kingdom-derived breeds such as Shires and Clydesdales.

“The prevalence of type 1 PSSM is very low in light horse breeds such as Arabians and Thoroughbreds,” said Valberg.

When researching PSSM after caring for Juliet (TB/Perch) I found out that PSSM1 is pretty common in the Percheron breed which is a Continental European draft breed. Almost 60% of them carry the gene which means they have the disease. It is a dominant genetic mutation and even a n/PSSM1 has the disease but the symptoms can vary widely between individual horses.

I know Xan's gelding is PSSM2 of which there are many variants and is very different than PSSM1. Requiring a different diet and seems to be much more difficult to manage than PSSM1. I am on a PSSM FB page which is a wealth of knowledge.

I still would not have any draft cross as a dressage mount regardless of the breeding.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Tsavo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:45 pm

piedmontfields wrote:The extra care in the south to dry lot/muzzle can even cost as much as extra feed.


I agree with this. Because I am not emotionally able to muzzle, I have paid to send my horse to be dry-lotted (and trained). So while it is true I could have said I sent him off for training, I would not have done so if he didn't also need dry lotting.

Tsavo, I know your ideal is a Clyde-x rather than any kind of draft, but regardless, do pay attention to PSSM symptoms as it is a condition all over drafts and frankly just across many breeds. I do think it is a bit of a disease of contemporary horse management (too much high sugar feed; not enough turnout/movement)---but clearly some individual are more prone to suffering from this condition. I have known more than a few TBs with PSSM, too, and alas it does show up in WBs also. You might not choose to test, but you can do some investigation that can give you clues such as:
-What kind of work schedule does the horse thrive on? (if the horse is out of work, you will not know)
-What weather suits the horse best? (many PSSM horses struggle in cold/damp conditions)
-How does the horse do when kept in a stall 24 hours (due to weather or injury) occasionally?
-How much turnout/graze works well for the horse? (some PSSM horses cannot have much graze; others benefit from constant turn-out)
-What diet is the horse on? Any changes in diet in the last year and what difference did it make to the horse?


That seems like great advice. Thank, PF. But at least among draft breeds in that one study, Clydes had zero incidence/prevalence. They are the only draft breed that had zero. I know other breeds can have it.

When I kept my mare in NYC, she colicked several times and had an azotoria episode. Those were entirely due to no turnout and inconsistent work. She lived to 31 but I will never own a horse under those circumstances again. A Canadian Olympian is now running that NYC barn and while they have more turnout I still don't believe it is sufficient. I have learned from that. I will not have a horse under those circumstances. Now, I need at least half day turnout and I ride 5 days a week with few exceptions.

Basically, mild PSSM can be manageable with the right care situation, but without it or due to inattention, it can be heartbreaking for horse + owner. When I bought my horse, her seller was not aware of my mare's PSSM. The only clue she shared was that the horse seemed to do better physically with a very regular work schedule (it was not a case of being high or crazy after days off). Now when I hear that sort of comment it would trigger my awareness differently.


That is sad that she went undiagnosed but good you have her. I will be looking for a horse who is sound in work. I actually don't expect the seller to know how the horse is out of work because I won't buy a horse out of work. But it is an interesting question.

And another shallow note:
Much as I love white snipes and stripes on the nose, here in the south they are very prone to sunburn.


Yes I believe it. But skin cancer seems to be limited to pink horses here south of the Mason-Dixon. Other than avoiding grays, I doubt I will have any latitude for choosing color.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby musical comedy » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Tsavo wrote:. <respectfully snipped> Because I am not emotionally able to muzzle.....

Nor am I. I've paid a high price for not doing it. When I am horse shopping and read the term "easy keeper", I move on. Unfortunately I end up getting them anyway. I think that if we buy a horse that isn't getting sufficient forage and then we start giving them forage and grass turnout, they blimp out. It seems to be more prevalent with mares. My new mare is such the case.
Tsavo wrote:When I kept my mare in NYC, she colicked several times and had an azotoria episode. Those were entirely due to no turnout and inconsistent work. She lived to 31 but I will never own a horse under those circumstances again. A Canadian Olympian is now running that NYC barn and while they have more turnout I still don't believe it is sufficient. I have learned from that. I will not have a horse under those circumstances. Now, I need at least half day turnout and I ride 5 days a week with few exceptions.
Me too. There are those of us that feel turnout (as much as possible) is ideal. It's a personal thing though because I have known of many horses that don't get it and they keep on truckin without major issues.

Piedmont wrote:Basically, mild PSSM can be manageable with the right care situation, but without it or due to inattention, it can be heartbreaking for horse + owner. When I bought my horse, her seller was not aware of my mare's PSSM. The only clue she shared was that the horse seemed to do better physically with a very regular work schedule (it was not a case of being high or crazy after days off). Now when I hear that sort of comment it would trigger my awareness differently.
I don't know anyone with a PSSM horse, but I do believe there are lots of people that 'think' their horses have it but it's something else that is wrong. Unless you do the muscle biopsy, do you really know for sure?

What I have observed is that more often than not, the things that we think will bring a horse down is not what we would have suspected.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Chisamba » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:02 pm

There are a quite a few people who think PSSM is a fairy tale excuse for laziness or poor riding.

I bought a quarter horse from a auction barn. He was to be a lesson horse, he developed unsoundness. It was pin pointed as back and hindquarters pain. He was treated with pain meds, muscle relaxers and therapy. The pain in his large muscles persisted.


After some discussion I decided to try low starch . If it helped, I would keep him low starch, if it didnt, I would continue with therapies. After about a year of management and treatment, two weeks after changing his diet he has no back or hindquarters pain as of the past two weeks.

No I will not biopsy

I have always believed in turn out and freedom to move, horses living out with free choice to good shelter being my ideal. So I am not hiding lack of turnout behind a blanket diagnosis of PSSM.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby khall » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:05 pm

MC no you will not know unless you test but for a horse that ties up, pretty much PSSM1, which is what Juliet (TB/Perch) is. Testing is done by pulling a bit of mane and sending off for genetic testing. PSSM2 and all it's variants can be muscle biopsy or blood sample sent in to Equiseq which tests for various other muscle related issues.

http://equiseq.com

Chisamba AQHA does the 5 panel test which is a blood test. https://www.aqha.com/genetictesting

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:59 pm

Tsavo, be aware that "genetic purity" or exclusion of genes prone to PSSM (or other concerns) may or may not be in place via honest papers on an otherwise good horse. Shop accordingly. I agree that narrowing to a horse in steady work (and with a track record of how they do in that work) is one way to do this.

BTW, my mare is PSSM2. Tying up is the symptom she presents in the wrong management (this is why she flunked out of being a dressage horse with her original owner/breeder, as the trainers she was with did very little turnout).

Like Chisamba, I would start with diet/management changes with any horse that showed possible PSSM symptoms. Frankly, it will not hurt them and could save them from a miserable life. I am always shocked by people with horses who show symptoms but refuse to change their management.

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Re: Things you would pay extra for and the opposite

Postby Chisamba » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:27 am

khall wrote:MC no you will not know unless you test but for a horse that ties up, pretty much PSSM1, which is what Juliet (TB/Perch) is. Testing is done by pulling a bit of mane and sending off for genetic testing. PSSM2 and all it's variants can be muscle biopsy or blood sample sent in to Equiseq which tests for various other muscle related issues.

http://equiseq.com

Chisamba AQHA does the 5 panel test which is a blood test. https://www.aqha.com/genetictesting


Thank you, I had not heard or equisec. Nor read any research identifying genetic components identified for PSSM2.


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