Safe sport

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:39 pm

I was not fully behind Safe Sport at first. I did the training, found the limitations irksome, but I did think it was more about USEF covering its behind, and that there is a criminal.procedure to prosecute molesters.

I have changed my mind. We really as a masse, seem to be much too inclined to excuse the behavior and blame the victim.

Its shocking. In my other life, I work in a group home and we do abuse training as part of the job requirement. And yet it seems a cultural phenomena both in my day job, and my horse life. not to report, to cover up to refuse to believe the victim.

We need to do better. Perhaps safe sport needs to alter some of its methods but more and more I am realizing how important it is.

WheresMyWhite
500 post plus club
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby WheresMyWhite » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:55 pm

I agree with, based on my limited exposure, that the sport does need to do a better job of "policing" behavior of, primarily IMO, the professionals who so often deal with minors as well as encouraging anyone who feels they've been unduly pressured.

What I do wonder is if something like a statute of limitations should also be considered given the impact in some people's lives of this behavior many, many years prior to its public visibility? Old misbehaviors shouldn't be excused but what about the severity of any penalty? Just musing as I've read recently of current penalties based on very old behaviors that did impact the aggressor.

Where to draw the line? Or should one be drawn? I just don't know...

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:10 pm

I've been seeing all the commentary around Robert Gage and have been quite surprised by how many people are angry at safe sport over his death. Yes, it's true in each incident reported it's one person's word against another. But I think it is unlikely that many young women would lie about inappropriate behavior.

I think for so long predatory behavior was ignored or excused that it was almost seen as normal.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:38 am

I would say a repeat offender, definitely not "statue of limitations".

I read of one case where a legal arbitration reduced the penalty to 7 months because it was a long time ago and no repeat offense.

But I think two, or three is a pattern of behavior .

Otoh I do believe in the ability to change and so perhaps offering behavior modification education and limited suspension with no further behavior might be an option that I do not think is currently available.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:51 am

blob wrote:I've been seeing all the commentary around Robert Gage and have been quite surprised by how many people are angry at safe sport over his death. Yes, it's true in each incident reported it's one person's word against another. But I think it is unlikely that many young women would lie about inappropriate behavior.

I think for so long predatory behavior was ignored or excused that it was almost seen as normal.


It was the "noise " around his death that made ne realize how much we need safe sport.

"he was such a nice man"

" girls threw themselves at him"

No one says he was innocent but it was all the victims fault. I even had someone say to me " I was there and she threw herself at him" do people even realize if that is true they should be suspended for not reporting.

I did not know William's or Gage, but I was very shocked by those who believe it happened but say "it say so long ago, or she asked for it. "Outing" the assumed victim, and Even blaming it on other victims of molestation who had nothing to do with it. It really shocked me into supporting the safe sport program.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:49 am

Not just victim blaming, but also parent blaming. "Why weren't there parents supervising more?"

And maybe the parents should have been, but that doesn't excuse the behavior. An unsupervised child isn't permission for bad behavior

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:14 pm

I disagree on several points with the thinking of you all. There is no point to arguing about it, but there are probably many that support my views but choose not to say so.

One point I will make is that while a minor may be someone under the age of 18, most young people are quite mature at 15 or so and able to determine if they are being sexually harassed. In most cases they choose to stay in the situation; they have a choice. It does also come down to the relationship between parent and child. Good relationships (thankfully I had one) result in the child telling the parent what has happened.

Allow me to tell you two stories, just because I'm in the mood for typing and story telling at the moment.
When I was around 14, I used to take a local bus to the town where my school was to meet up with friends. There was a local guy in town that would often give me a ride to town. He was probably 15 or so years old than me. One time as we were driving to town, he made a sharp turn up a country road and before I knew what was happening he pulled over to a secluded spot and made sexual advances. I immediately resisted and he stopped and took me to town. When I got home, I told my mother. She went over to the local tavern where this guy hung out and laid into him. He didn't deny it. He apologized and said he didn't know what got into him. That was the end of this issue. Now...do you think this guy should be arrested and put in jail for this? I do not. While I never led this guy on, I was pretty darn mature at 15 and sexy looking. I don't think this guy thought about my age or that he was doing something criminal; just making a pass an attractive female.

Now another case, and you guys will think I'm awful when I tell you. In 1979 I moved to NJ. I rented a place on an estate where my horses and a couple other horses were boarded. One girl came in from Brooklyn. She was 16 at the time, and sexually active. Our trainer was 25 and she was having a relationship with him. I knew it and said nothing. Why? Because to be honest, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. She was exceptionally mature and very bright. This particular trainer is still around teaching hunter/jumper. If that young woman wanted to, she could bring 40 year old charges against him. Should he be charged or lose his USEF membership over this? Not in my opinion.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:42 pm

musical comedy wrote: It does also come down to the relationship between parent and child. Good relationships (thankfully I had one) result in the child telling the parent what has happened.


MC, I agree a good relationship can prevent a lot of bad situations for dozens of reasons. However, just because a parent is not present does not mean it is acceptable for someone to be predatory.

I most certainly champion the importance of good parent-child relationships. But that doesn't mean someone's off the hook for their own behavior. Adults should be held responsible for their own actions regardless of how sexy, mature, un-supervised someone was. The laws about what constitutes a minor have not changed recently. If an adult chooses to have a relationship with a minor, I do not feel sorry for them if they face legal consequences for it. They knew the situation and made a decision.

I think the other important thing to remember is that in the case of Gage, it was not one one-time offenses. They were repeating offenses.


And I think it's a terrible thing to place the burden of his death on the women for speaking out (this comment is not directed at MC or anyone else here, but it's been part of the conversations I've read on the topic). That was also a decision he made.

heddylamar
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Texas (o_O)

Re: Safe sport

Postby heddylamar » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:01 pm

It's our collective duty as a society to protect kids. In doing so, we (again, as a collective) can't make random blanket exceptions for 14yo A who acts with maturity and agency v. 14yo B who need a parent to advise.

I'm horrified thinking about the trauma so-called "trusted" adults inflicted on these children. Children who should have been safe.

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:01 pm

Chisamba wrote:
blob wrote:I've been seeing all the commentary around Robert Gage and have been quite surprised by how many people are angry at safe sport over his death. Yes, it's true in each incident reported it's one person's word against another. But I think it is unlikely that many young women would lie about inappropriate behavior.

I think for so long predatory behavior was ignored or excused that it was almost seen as normal.


It was the "noise " around his death that made ne realize how much we need safe sport.

"he was such a nice man"

" girls threw themselves at him"

No one says he was innocent but it was all the victims fault. I even had someone say to me " I was there and she threw herself at him" do people even realize if that is true they should be suspended for not reporting.

I did not know William's or Gage, but I was very shocked by those who believe it happened but say "it say so long ago, or she asked for it. "Outing" the assumed victim, and Even blaming it on other victims of molestation who had nothing to do with it. It really shocked me into supporting the safe sport program.


I worked and lived in the h/j world at the time and knew the particulars. Chisamba accused me of "boasting" that I knew what was going and should be ashamed of myself for not reporting it and ben suspended. Maybe she should report me and get me suspended now. I would lose my Steward license. Maybe she thinks I deserve that.

A few thoughts/comments in no particular order.

I worked my first horse show at 15 for a trainer who was at least 30 years older than me and very successful. He made lots of passes, kissed me when I didn't want it, etc. When I was clearly not responding in the way he would have liked he left me alone and actually was a good boss,paid us fairly and on time and put us u in decent hotels at shows.. I saw many many women and teen girls who *did* respond to him in the way he wanted though the years; mothers of students mainly. Was I harmed? Good grief. Would you call it molesting? yeah, maybe. Did I quit working for him? No. He left me alone after a couple of tries and no harm done.

In some/many states the age of consent is 14; you can marry at 13 I think even in a state or two. Elvis Presly married whats her face at 16 and I don't remember anyone having a cow about it.

When I was in high school a very cute right out of college math teacher had a big crush on a friend of mine. They started dating after she graduated but was still 17. She turned 18 that summer. Should he go to jail for dating her a few weeks before her 18 birthday? She was crazy about him, quite willing. Was he a child molester?

The girls in question as far as I knew were all quite grown up teenagers. They were flattered and quite willing. Im not sure I/we knew how old they were or cared. There were no unwanted advances. He didn't force himself or molest anybody. Im not sure their parents even would have minded...maybe disapproved a little but they were actually relationships...not girls 'used' in the common parlance. I have no idea about her parents and certainly don't blame them for any failing. I know how willful I was at that age and if my parents had known that the trainer was grabbing me they would have tried to keep me from working for him. It would not have worked I would have lied. I loved working at horse shows and al my barn friends did too. We didn't care.

And I am curious, to whom would I have reported and what exactly would I have reported? What would have been the result? To the show management? AHSA? The police? Do you honestly think that *anybody* would have taken that report seriously?! There was no safesport. It was boyfriend/girlfriend situation, quite public. I guess the whole show world from that time should be suspended then.

Rob was adorable, nice, very successful. Women of all ages were all over him. To paint him now as a serial abuser/molester is so wrong. To say that defending him reveals some deep moral turpitude is also wrong and terribly unfair. Im not 'blaming the victim". I don't see her as a 'victim'. If that makes me some sort of amoral monster so be it. I didn't see myself as a 'victim" when my trainer/boss tried to get in my pants. I see Anne Kursinski as a victim and I hurt for her pain. I know there are actual victims and I want them supported and protected.

I didn't know him well after I left that world, but he lived and worked here in my town. He gave endlessly of time and knowledge. He was a good person. He lived as a young successful very good hearted attractive male in a world where women and teenage girls were as predatory as the hetero men. Judge him and his friends who loved and defend him and are broken hearted all you want from your moral high horses if it makes you feel good about yourselves. Insult those of us who were there as amoral boasters and unfriend us on facebook if it makes you feel all virtuous.

My brother was accused of rape in high school by a girl who liked him and wanted his attention. Thank God we didn't live in todays world. She eventually recanted and confessed after we could prove that my brother was on a backpacking trip the entire summer she claimed the rapes occurred. He was crushed by her accusations. Luckily he was beloved and trusted by everyone who knew him. The Women Never Lie POV is crap. My mom, when she retired from teaching was elected to the local school board and then to the local college board. The sexual harassment claims were constant and a joke. The districts settled them pretty much without question; it was quick payoff to liars. It made the workplace tense and the men scared. Women can be predators, women can be liars.

Safesport does not protect the accused. Anyone can anonymously claim anything and boom. The decisions are made my the Olympic committees, not the actual sports disciplines. Anyone with an axe to grind, anyone can accuse anyone of anything.

I know that abuse occurs. I am strongly in favor of protecting athletes. But Safesport the way its written and being implemented needs changes.

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:41 pm

I have started multiple responses to this thread and deleted all of them.
Abby has said a bunch of my thoughts here. I do think there is a need to protect athletes. But I am not sure safesport is right.

We need statutes of limitations. Let's face it, people's memories are not always clear after so long. And the world was a different place even just 10 years ago!

Everything these days is bullying, a sexual misconduct and all these horrible accusations.
When I was younger, a guy kissed me quite unexpectedly and I was not attracted to him. Was this molestation? No. He misread something from me. It was unwanted by me but it was not molestation.
We have gone too far toward the POV of the victim and forget the whole "innocent til proven guilty" part of our government.

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:42 pm

heddylamar wrote:It's our collective duty as a society to protect kids. In doing so, we (again, as a collective) can't make random blanket exceptions for 14yo A who acts with maturity and agency v. 14yo B who need a parent to advise.

I'm horrified thinking about the trauma so-called "trusted" adults inflicted on these children. Children who should have been safe.


Remember the saying that an "all purpose saddle is a no purpose saddle"? That is how I feel about no-tolerance laws.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:02 pm

heddylamar wrote:It's our collective duty as a society to protect kids.


Now I should start by saying I have no experience in this. However, this is a hobby for me and I am a bit nervous when the equestrian federation steps into sexual violence issues. they do not have the expertise in this either legally or socially.

I think this is a police issue more than a sport/show issue.

Ban the hell out of anyone doing something at a show (drugs, abuse of horses or riders, dog bites, etc) on the grounds. I just don't think there is a blanket answer as people have a whole range of feelings about it. If someone was truly abused and is having issues then they should be protected and supported to the max.

heddylamar
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Texas (o_O)

Re: Safe sport

Postby heddylamar » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:03 pm

Chancellor wrote:Remember the saying that an "all purpose saddle is a no purpose saddle"? That is how I feel about no-tolerance laws.


I'm not a fan of no tolerance as a blanket rule either, but our society's proven over and over again of late that it's unable to police itself. Just look at the Catholic church and Penn State abuses.

Obviously self-policing is a bust, but whether the *perfect* solution is Safe Sport or not is above my pay grade.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:17 pm

heddylamar wrote:
Chancellor wrote:Remember the saying that an "all purpose saddle is a no purpose saddle"? That is how I feel about no-tolerance laws.


I'm not a fan of no tolerance as a blanket rule either, but our society's proven over and over again of late that it's unable to police itself. Just look at the Catholic church and Penn State abuses.

Obviously self-policing is a bust, but whether the *perfect* solution is Safe Sport or not is above my pay grade.


its still a horse organization. I just don't think it's the right solution, its a start. I still think it creates a burden on everyone, and when shows are being lost to non-official shows such as schooling and local circuits it needs to considered. Having it a block to showing at all is really extreme. Are we at truly so bad it needs to be that way? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I know people who show once or twice a year who are not showing anymore because of this extra hassle. They have the money to show, its just unwelcoming. I should also say I have luckily never known anyone who has been affected by sexual violence (that they shared).

I also think the .0001% will still be a problem. I guess we'll see though....its just a hobby for me and this isn't where I put my social effort. I do other things for that.
Last edited by Ryeissa on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:18 pm

heddylamar wrote:
I'm not a fan of no tolerance as a blanket rule either, but our society's proven over and over again of late that it's unable to police itself. Just look at the Catholic church and Penn State abuses.

Obviously self-policing is a bust, but whether the *perfect* solution is Safe Sport or not is above my pay grade.


Well, ain't that the truth? It really should fall to the parents to stand up for their kids in my mind.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:21 pm

I've worked on many federal things that are good hearted and sound good..............but never work.

tlkidding
Herd Member
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby tlkidding » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:02 pm

Safe Sport covers all Olympic sports, so it's not just for horse showing. Safe Sport is mandated by the US Government, so if we want a horse show organization/club that sends athletes to the Olympics, we have to comply with Safe Sport.

The reach of Safe Sport and required processes for investigation, again are mandated by Safe Sport and not the USEF.

And I honestly cannot believe the people here saying that victims have no reason to say anything or accuse anyone even years later. We have no idea what was done to the victims, how many victims came forward against a specific person, or how it affected the rest of their lives. If even well-paid and famous actresses can be pressured into uncomfortable situations, what about at 14 year old kid who only wants to be at the barn all day helping out and gets trapped in a tack room with the trainer...

Maybe I'm especially sensitive today - I just watched Roll Red Roll on PBS last night and it was horrifying the things peers and adults could say about a teenager that was assaulted, details of which were captured on video and social media.

Ten or twenty years later, I think the victims should be honored for sharing their stories, and if there is an organization that will pick up the case and investigate, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:09 pm

tlkidding wrote:
Ten or twenty years later, I think the victims should be honored for sharing their stories, and if there is an organization that will pick up the case and investigate, I don't see anything wrong with that.


And if they are sharing things that have been clouded by bad memory? What then? That is the whole point of statute of limitations.

tlkidding
Herd Member
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby tlkidding » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:31 pm

Chancellor wrote:
tlkidding wrote:
Ten or twenty years later, I think the victims should be honored for sharing their stories, and if there is an organization that will pick up the case and investigate, I don't see anything wrong with that.


And if they are sharing things that have been clouded by bad memory? What then? That is the whole point of statute of limitations.


That's what the investigation is for that Safe Sport performs. And they would take into consideration the evidence they are able to gather to determine the penalty. So I would imagine a single victim with no corroborating evidence would probably not cause a lifetime ban/suspension for the accused. If multiple victims come forward, even if it's from many years ago, I think Safe Sport and the sports club/organization (i.e., USEF) would then take into account the pattern of behavior exhibited to determine the penalty/punishment.

Statute of limitations on sexual assaults is 10-20 years in a lot of states, with many having civil lawsuit extensions if it is sexual assault of a minor, and some states having no statute of limitation on sexual assault of minors.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:01 pm

I get that we need ruled but I just see this as safe sport trying to act like police. Let it be a criminal charge first. Its so much bigger than horse showing.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Safe sport

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:24 pm

Just to be clear, Ryeissa: You consider training to be "acting like police."

As we say in the polite south, why bless your heart!

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:07 am

Both abby and Chancellor are classic examples of why we need safe sport, which is NOT an equestrian organization, it is. Very difficult to look beyond our experience . It does need an objective organization not influenced by the social blanket of the horse world.
it is as tdk said a federally mandated for all Olympic sports because abuse was so rampant.

There was a very nice man , a school teacher, he lost his right to teach because a parent brought allegation against him for molesting her son. It was he said she said and criminal charges did not stand. My God that poor kid. His name was supposedly protected but every time the family moved someone called the school he went to and told them the parent was using the child as rape bait and would sue the school.

People vehemently insisted they would trust their kids with this nice man. He was super liked and yes a horse professional.

Then he was truly busted, a horrific pedophile with thousands of pornographic photo, video and dozens of groomed " consenting" young men who should have just said no.

Very very few victims report because of the prevailing attitude of victim blaming demonstrated even here. Because for decades the moral outrage blames the victim and supports the nice guy.

I used to be so I infuriated by people not reporting. I had an incident, not equine related, I did report. It was not well received and I had to endure ostracism. Turn out the next girl to report was taken seriously, then a third. This man used his position and charm to be a predator of 40 years , as it all unfolded. Hundreds if young women, if the fu$%ing first few reported maybe I would have been spared, so I used to be very angry at the victims. Now I see the power of the charming nice guy. I have to apologize to those victims I scorned.

I work with people with developmental disabilities. I suppose the abused females in my care should have just learned to say no. Or maybe the parents or guardians are to blame too.

I did not specify the current case hitting the media, I just think we have not done well enough.

As for elvis, maybe he is an example of why we need to do better.

Jerry Lee Lewis, Roman Polanski and Charlie Chaplin did actually cause outrage by their behavior, just because some think it's okay doesnt mean every one did

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:25 am

And, food for thought.

Someone wrote not every youth coach is a child predator. But every child predator wants to be a youth coach. Certain activities attract types. Among the fabulous people who.live their sport and are dedicated to it are those attracted for another reason, teaching, scouts, and religion requiring celibacy being others. Perhaps more vigilance in these areas is warranted.

In my field of work we have abuse training annually. It might seem.over the top, but so many of people in my care have been sexually abused. Yes they were "consensual " too. The fact that they may have the hormones if an adult and the mental capacity of a 3 year old notwithstanding.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:10 am

Chancellor wrote:
tlkidding wrote:
Ten or twenty years later, I think the victims should be honored for sharing their stories, and if there is an organization that will pick up the case and investigate, I don't see anything wrong with that.


And if they are sharing things that have been clouded by bad memory? What then? That is the whole point of statute of limitations.


Read the safe sport actual policy and actions.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:33 am

piedmontfields wrote:Just to be clear, Ryeissa: You consider training to be "acting like police."

As we say in the polite south, why bless your heart!


POINT 1

No, I'm talking about Safesport INVESTIGATIONS. Not training. I don't think its the job of USEF to go after offenders.

POINT 2 Access to shows

I like the training aspect, though it does create a barrier to showing....I personally know a few people new to dressage who said enough, this is all a huge headache to join all these clubs and pay these fees, now you require me to do this online training for 1-4 dressage shows. they said no.

This is why I see more schooling shows and we are losing recognized shows at an alarming pace

Ponichiwa
500 post plus club
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 am

Ryeissa wrote:
piedmontfields wrote:Just to be clear, Ryeissa: You consider training to be "acting like police."

As we say in the polite south, why bless your heart!


POINT 1

No, I'm talking about Safesport INVESTIGATIONS. Not training. I don't think its the job of USEF to go after offenders.


It's not. It's SafeSport's job to investigate alleged offenders. USEF acts on the SafeSport recommendations, but does not conduct the actual investigation.

I do think this industry has been needing some professional licensing/board of ethics or similar for quite some time.

Ryeissa wrote:POINT 2 Access to shows

I like the training aspect, though it does create a barrier to showing....I personally know a few people new to dressage who said enough, this is all a huge headache to join all these clubs and pay these fees, now you require me to do this online training for 1-4 dressage shows. they said no.

This is why I see more schooling shows and we are losing recognized shows at an alarming pace


If the ~hr-long training is the straw that broke the camel's back, so be it. If you want to play in the sandbox, you've got to follow the rules. That goes for USEF (who wants to have a role in the selection/maintenance of the US Olympic Team hopefuls, and so must abide by the mandated SafeSport guidelines), and it goes for us (if we want to show in USEF shows).

Luckily, as you point out, there are other showing avenues available if one does not want to play by those rules.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:51 pm

There is a lot of bad info here. Safe Sport gives me the impression they are the investigators. Now that could be people mis-informed but the role of the legal system and the role of USEF is very unclear in many aspects.

Ponichiwa
500 post plus club
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:02 pm

Here's the USEF Safe Sport policy, which defines jurisdiction (who investigates what and when) and enforcement policies.

https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/YXj0R68 ... ort-policy

It's worth a read if you think there's a lot of bad info upthread.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:32 pm

Usef one organization.

Safe sport, completely different congressionally mandated organization that now is mandated to monitor all Olympic sports.

Usef responds to the recommendations of Safe Sports wrt sexual misconduct and bullying.

USEF does not investigate, Safw Sport does. They are separate entities.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Chisamba wrote:Usef one organization.

Safe sport, completely different congressionally mandated organization that now is mandated to monitor all Olympic sports.

Usef responds to the recommendations of Safe Sports wrt sexual misconduct and bullying.

USEF does not investigate, Safw Sport does. They are separate entities.


Interesting. Warning: brainstorm ahead.

so is safe sport NOT a legal entity. interesting. Just a reporting and education entity.

https://safesport.org/what-we-do

Are lawyers doing this? how are these investigators trained? do they understand how to work with victims? I echo those who have concerns about privacy....is this legal arbitration? I might be just stupid here, but this is so vague... We have legal courts for a reason. Do these investigations occur according to SOPs?


1. Investigation
The advisor may be present with the advisee in all meetings and interviews at which the advisee is
entitled to be present. The advisor may suggest and identify witnesses for the Investigator to interview,
may provide suggested questions and topics for the Investigator to discuss with witnesses, and is entitled
to generally advise the advisee throughout the process. Any questioning or interviews will occur at a time
determined by the Investigator. The advisor may not interfere with the conduct of the investigation or
present the testimony of the advisee on his/her behalf, but can confer quietly with the advisee as
necessary, so long as they do not disrupt the process. An advisor may be asked by the Investigator to
leave the interview, if, after warning by the Investigator, the advisor acts in a matter deemed by the
Investigator to be disruptive to the process.

2. Arbitration
The advisor may confer with his/her advisee during the arbitration, exchange notes, clarify procedural
questions, present opening and closing arguments on behalf of the advisee, suggest questions to the
advisee and the hearing panel during witness examinations, or, to the extent direct examination by the
parties is permitted, question witnesses on behalf of the advisee.

Ponichiwa
500 post plus club
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:01 pm

Sex crimes are very hard to convict because the preponderance of evidence is testimonial. He said/she said. Add in the "but it ruins the man's life!" element, and there you go. Lots of exit ramps to end without conviction. But the paucity of hard evidence does not make rape any less a crime than tax evasion, theft, murder, etc. The examples cited upthread about false accusations... well, all of them were exonerated, weren't they?

I was a juror in a criminal case this year, where the charge was multiple counts of aggravated sexual assault of a minor. Testimony took the better part of a week, and ultimately we ended in a hung jury because one jurist could not be convinced that the assaults occurred without video evidence (and the rest of the jury felt that the standard for guilt had been met).

I say this to set the stage. In my workplace, I can be dismissed for many perfectly legal activities. Example: Drinking on the job. This is not illegal, but is against my corporation's code of conduct and is thus grounds for dismissal. That's the space that Safe Sport fills in sports; providing a clear code of conduct for sports professionals (and hobbyists) with some enforcement "teeth".

Here's a current job posting for a Safe Sport investigator, which does require 2 yrs' prior experience in the investigation of sexual misconduct. https://safesport.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=1

Policies and procedures for incident investigation/resolution: https://safesport.org/policies-procedures

And finally, this is not meant to circumvent the criminal process. Same as if I broke the law at work; I'm going to get fired, and then there's an additional investigation conducted by the applicable law enforcement agency.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:17 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Sex crimes are very hard to convict because the preponderance of evidence is testimonial. He said/she said. Add in the "but it ruins the man's life!" element, and there you go. Lots of exit ramps to end without conviction. But the paucity of hard evidence does not make rape any less a crime than tax evasion, theft, murder, etc. The examples cited upthread about false accusations... well, all of them were exonerated, weren't they?

I was a juror in a criminal case this year, where the charge was multiple counts of aggravated sexual assault of a minor. Testimony took the better part of a week, and ultimately we ended in a hung jury because one jurist could not be convinced that the assaults occurred without video evidence (and the rest of the jury felt that the standard for guilt had been met).

I say this to set the stage. In my workplace, I can be dismissed for many perfectly legal activities. Example: Drinking on the job. This is not illegal, but is against my corporation's code of conduct and is thus grounds for dismissal. That's the space that Safe Sport fills in sports; providing a clear code of conduct for sports professionals (and hobbyists) with some enforcement "teeth".

Here's a current job posting for a Safe Sport investigator, which does require 2 yrs' prior experience in the investigation of sexual misconduct. https://safesport.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=1

Policies and procedures for incident investigation/resolution: https://safesport.org/policies-procedures

And finally, this is not meant to circumvent the criminal process. Same as if I broke the law at work; I'm going to get fired, and then there's an additional investigation conducted by the applicable law enforcement agency.


this is just code of conduct then....interesting....that is what I assumed....so the suspension in USEF means there is no other ramifications legally and the person could continue to do whatever,

Can these proceedings be used in a criminal case launched concurrent or after a Safe Sport suspension? does this have any legal teeth in the court? can it be evidence?

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:22 pm

"Both abby and Chancellor are classic examples of why we need safe sport,"

I wonder if Chisamba even reads what I post.

I took the training, I appreciated the training, I know we need it, I support it. I know its needed. I know abuse has and does occur in many if not all sports/disciplines.

I also know that the way it is written was not well thought out. It was to me an ill prepared response to the Me Too movement. It needs to be critically looked at and the faults addressed.

She does not answer any of my questions. What is the emotional difference between a 17 yr old a week before her 18 birthday and that same person a week after her birthday?

Who should I have reported to? EVERYBODY KNEW.

He was found not guilty in an actual legal proceeding.

What is the protection for an accused against potential liars and vindictiveness? Or is it just a too bad for you buddy/girl if you are falsely accused?

Ponichiwa
500 post plus club
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:29 pm

Lifetime bans are not getting handed out because someone dated a 17yr old for 2 weeks before their 18th birthday. As in everything, context is key. That said, I'd argue that probably you should have just waited 2 weeks before going on a date.

There might not be an emotional difference between 17.98 yrs and 18, but there sure as heck is a legal one. Similarly, there's minimal difference between a 21yr old and a 22yr old, but if you're 22 you can't show at NAYRC. We deal with age cutoffs for much much much less important stuff all the time.

Again, this isn't a criminal proceeding.

This might sound like hair-splitting, but there's actually a difference between being found "not guilty" and being innocent.

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:41 pm

I hope none of you are ever falsely accused. I hope none of you have ever made an error in judgement that you are called on 40 years later. I hope that none of you ever pissed someone off who now wants to make your life miserable.

I really don't get why some people are unable to see anything wrong with SS the way it is set up currently. And why saying it needs changes somehow means "we" don't care, or don't support the concept.

Ponichiwa
500 post plus club
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:44 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:Who should I have reported to? EVERYBODY KNEW.

He was found not guilty in an actual legal proceeding.

What is the protection for an accused against potential liars and vindictiveness? Or is it just a too bad for you buddy/girl if you are falsely accused?


The top sentence does not paint the picture of someone that was falsely accused! And again, "Not guilty" isn't a sign that someone was falsely accused; it's an indication that the evidence presented at that trial at that time did not meet that jury's standard of "beyond reasonable doubt."

Abby Kogler wrote:I hope none of you are ever falsely accused. I hope none of you have ever made an error in judgement that you are called on 40 years later. I hope that none of you ever pissed someone off who now wants to make your life miserable.

I really don't get why some people are unable to see anything wrong with SS the way it is set up currently. And why saying it needs changes somehow means "we" don't care, or don't support the concept.


I, too, hope that nobody here has to go through the gut-wrenching process of fighting for one's own reputation and innocence.

I don't think this is a Safe Sport problem. I think this is a cultural problem.

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:11 pm

Posted by Bonnie Navin, atty familiar with SS and Robs case in a FB group Safesport Overhaul. I think it well describes the problems with SS that need to be addressed.


"SAFESPORT CLARIFICATION -

I wish I could take the time to respond to each and every mis-step and mis-information that people post about SafeSport and understand even after one year we lawyers still muddle through much of it as it is a moving target. That said let's hit a few points:

Safesport's representative Dan Hill said Gage was:
SafeSport spokesman Dan Hill told USA TODAY Sports on Friday that investigators found Gage was guilty. . ."

Please search the current rules of SS and look for the word GUILTY. You will only find it ONCE on page 7 referring to a criminal court conviction. There is NO such ruling in SS that someone is guilty or innocent. The issue is whether or not someone may have violated the SS code and if so, in light of that what is their current fitness to be in the sport TODAY. That is the measure that is to be weighed. That measure also comes with review of mitigating factors - then a sanction is recommended.

Keep in mind NO one can violate the Code if the act occurred before the effective date of the Code which is March 2018. If an act is alleged to have occurred prior they then look to the NGB rule book for rules that may have been violated. In Rob's case the NGB never had such rules. Thus SS went to the catch-all of "any violation of any law or rule in effect at the time" and chose to assign a criminal standard reserved to use in a criminal court, where each side is appointed counsel trained in handling such criminal cases and where the standard is "beyond all reasonable doubt", and statute of limitations apply. SS instead slid the standard down to "preponderance of the evidence" which was never a standard to use for such situations. This is one of the areas where SS is unfair in its process in our humble opinion.

SS says they only find someone permanently ineligible to the most egregious scenario - again untrue, they were permanently banning everyone until pressure was placed on them and the arbitrations lead to over 90% reversals.

SS tells reporting parties when they ask can the person at least still have a job and SS says yes but that isn't true. See page 15 of the rules effective April 15, 2019 which says that one cannot "aid and abet" a banned member. Read the rule. It says that if you allow a banned person to coach a "Participant" then you will be investigated and sanctioned too!!!. Read page 6 as a "Participant" is an NGB member. Thus anyone who is banned but gives clinics to people who happen to be a USEF member will be in trouble and will expose the organizer to discipline.

Correct that the SS act is only permitted to act within the jurisdiction of NGB so making rules like noted above is acting beyond the scope of the legislation and that is what is upsetting to the accused. If you are banned from the NGB you CAN'T continue your business as someone has tried to argue. Also, many people do not have transferable skills at 67 years old to "change occupations."

An accused is given a hearing before a ruling and sanction - this is FALSE. The accused is given an interim hearing to see if they can return to the sport while an investigation is underway. Many people did NOT know that Rob was in fact given interim measures and allowed to return to the Sport to course design, judge and to train Lauren. The problem was by the time that ruling came in the 2019 course designing and judging jobs were contracted leaving only end of the year assignments for which Rob was reluctant to seek out because he was worried he would let down someone in the future if a ban ultimately was assigned. He didn't go back to the shows to train Lauren only because her horse had gotten hurt. He was more worried about others than himself.

It is kindof true and kindof false that the accused gets an opportunity to be heard. The accused is summoned to an interview by an investigator and is NOT permitted to be told of allegations and information prior to the interview because as SS claims they want to tell the accused for the first time information to see how they react (show them pictures, or comments, or whatever) and then the accused can listen and tell the investigator what evidence they have to refute the allegations. They can have an advisor present (or atty) but that person cannot interfere or interject at all. If you refuse to answer the rules say SS can take an adverse inference. Meaning since you didnt give an affirmative answer they can decide what answer it would have been by your silence. So you walk in blind, they try and use surprise tactics like interrogation you see on TV and then expect you to think about allegations 38 years old and offer right then and there your defense or evidence.

The ruling Rob received was NOT that he was guilty. SS decided that despite all the evidence presented one man, Michael Henry, believed one side over the other. Once THAT ruling comes in you are entitled to an arbitration hearing where you see for the FIRST time an arbitrator who hears the ENTIRE story and for that the accused gets to pay $5,600 and pay for attys and witnesses to come and testify. The accusers have an atty present the case for them assigned by SS (and the investigator comes in to assist the accusers assigned by SS) and they can testify. The accused gets no atty nor investigator from SS to help them. That is the FIRST time an accused is before an independent decision maker (purportedly independent although their employer has the EXCLUSIVE contract with USOC to handle ALL arbitrations for SS (probably worth a couple million in revenues)). The rules say you are entitled to that hearing in 15 days (speedy) but Rob was assigned an arbitrator (2/11) who couldn't be available until AFTER April 15 and even then the SS lawyer had prior committed family vacation for 2 weeks and it delayed the process even more. His hearing was selected to May 29, Rob did bring in additional counsel, at my advice, which did cause a change in arbitrator (as the first one couldn't then be available until AFTER October) and delay his hearing to June 17. The point is the process is by no means swift.

Remember the only issues complained of were the processes on how to get to a fair and balanced decision - whatever that decision would have been. If done fair and square and within the letter of the law then people can accept outcomes. When the process is so flawed it is near impossible to keep up the fight."




"

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:23 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:He was found not guilty in an actual legal proceeding.

What is the protection for an accused against potential liars and vindictiveness? Or is it just a too bad for you buddy/girl if you are falsely accused?



right. This is where I think there is a disconnect. My opinion is this suspension should stem from criminal cases, not working from Code of Conduct aspects. (ie so and so is now suspended after being found guilty in a Court of Law)

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Safe sport

Postby khall » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:17 pm

Nothing in life is fair, a USEF membership is not a right it is a privilege that can be revoked for many reasons. SS was developed because of the rampant abuse of minors in sports that they are part of, equestrian sports just being one of those sports. SS may have some issues with it's process but so does a court of law or civil court.

I'm sorry but when Abby says everyone knew about RG and his sexual conduct with minors then it sounds like the ban was completely fair regardless of the time frame.

When Abby relays her experience with a trainer and says he moved on when she rebuffed his advances to other girls who did not, yes that trainer should be behind bars. Predators like that groom their victims (yes a 17 yr old having sex with a 30+ yr old is a victim) and the victims families, gaining their trust and admiration so they can have the sexual relationship.

I cannot understand this mental apathy to men behaving badly, illegally and immorally. If we do not stand up for ourselves and our children nothing will change. I fully agree with chisamba and ponichiwa on this subject, SS is definitely needed to clean house. USEF may want to look into what the Boy Scouts did to keep the boys (now girls too) safe: 2 deep leadership at all times, the children are ALWAYS believed if they bring accusations up, leadership is notified as well as DFACS or law enforcement, they educate the children using age appropriate material that has to be done with their parents, youth protection training is done annually for leaders.

Federal law makes it criminal to engage in a sexual act with another person who is between the age of 12 and 16 if they are at least four years younger than you. Each state takes a different approach as the age of consent has ranged from 10 to 18.Dec 5, 2017. The greater the age difference the greater the offense.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:29 pm

khall wrote:
I cannot understand this mental apathy to men behaving badly, illegally and immorally. If we do not stand up for ourselves and our children nothing will change.


I agree....

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:32 am

Ryeissa wrote:
khall wrote:
I cannot understand this mental apathy to men behaving badly, illegally and immorally. If we do not stand up for ourselves and our children nothing will change.


I agree....


Agree.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:29 am


Bip
Herd Member
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:04 am

Re: Safe sport

Postby Bip » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:54 am

Chisamba wrote:https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/adults-with-minors-not-okay/


That is a really good piece.

Now I feel like I need to go find the one that explains how uncommon false rape accusations are and how easily they are identified.

Ok, found it https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-f ... cusations/

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:49 pm

Bip wrote:
Chisamba wrote:https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/adults-with-minors-not-okay/


That is a really good piece.

Now I feel like I need to go find the one that explains how uncommon false rape accusations are and how easily they are identified.

Ok, found it https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-f ... cusations/



Yes. I am tired of the anecdotal argument about people making up sexual assault accusations. I'm sure it's happened before. But it's hardly the norm. Yet, so many people really want to hold on to the story of the exception.

I think it's also important to remember the power dynamic at play when it comes to a coach and a student. With that in consideration, it really doesn't matter even if it's a mature, "consenting" 17 year-old. Consent is so muddled in that dynamic.

I don't know the nature of the accusations against Gage. But I do know there were multiple women and I don't believe they are lying, looking for attention, carrying out a vendetta, or anything like that.

And in the case of Williams, so many people were outraged and spoke out about his innocence and the horrors of SS. But then Anne came forward with specifics and I'm not sure how anyone can think the ban wasn't absolutely necessary. It's a shame he wasn't put in jail decades ago.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:00 pm

blob wrote:And in the case of Williams, so many people were outraged and spoke out about his innocence and the horrors of SS. But then Anne came forward with specifics and I'm not sure how anyone can think the ban wasn't absolutely necessary. It's a shame he wasn't put in jail decades ago.


I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:09 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
blob wrote:And in the case of Williams, so many people were outraged and spoke out about his innocence and the horrors of SS. But then Anne came forward with specifics and I'm not sure how anyone can think the ban wasn't absolutely necessary. It's a shame he wasn't put in jail decades ago.


I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.



Oh, yes, I didn't mean to imply that anyone here did. Just pointing out that before Anne came forward people were boldly defending him, much as they are defending Gage now. It's just hard to know what we don't know.

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:43 pm

I think it is interesting that feminists, and I certainly consider myself one; I had a strongly political feminist mother and was raised with prochoice marches, MS magazine, Betty Friedan, etc etc etc. have somewhat of a disconnect regarding women and victimhood. Women should be soldiers, firefighters, executives...strong, able to climb any mountain etc etc. but OMG a man behaves badly and suddenly we are all hothouse flowers, trembling innocents, victims, permanently harmed and emotionally mutilated if someone says or does something inappropriate. Which one is it?

And because I am sure this will be twisted to make me into some sort of self loathing whatever (trust me, Ive heard it all) let me clarify. Pedophilia is a crime and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Rape is a crime and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Abusers and stalkers and groomers and sex traffickers should be reported and jailed to the full extent of the law and I would even argue death penalty.

At the time of Robs and the girlfriends there was a lesbian groom who had a public relationship with a rider under 18. 40 years later should she be banned?

I was 15 when that trainer stuck his hands up my shirt. I said stop and he did. He tried a couple more times. I said stop and he did. By some of your accounts I am a victim. That's offensive to the nth. I was not a victim. I was a strong minded 15 yr old horse girl who knew how to stick up for MYSELF. My mom and dad had raised me that way.

I raised two daughters and am a step to two others. They too know how to stop unwanted advances. They are all gorgeous and of course have received unwanted attention from men. Are they victims?! Two work in strongly male fields. Are they victims when some guy says something inappropriate or pats them?

I am not talking assault. I am not talking violence or persistence or obnoxiousness or creepers or the myriad forms of sexual assault. If that trainer had ever pushed it or frightened me I would have absolutely reported/exposed him told my parents. When we were little we often rode our horses in a riverbottom, lots of trees and bamboo and secret places. My sister, at maybe 10, was riding with a friend and some creeper exposed himself masturbating. They girls rode home fast and told our parents who called the sheriff. The sheriff caught the guy and my sister and her friend had to identify him and he was arrested. Was she traumatized? No, she felt brave and proud that she had done the right thing. Was she a victim? She doesn't see herself that way.

Those of you who trot out the statistics about how rare false rape/assault accusations are have led sheltered lives. look it up; most reports are teenage girls trying to keep out of trouble for having broken a family rule. In my brothers case it was a teen girl who he had rejected and she was angry. My mom was on the school boards for ten years and there were at least 12 sexual harassment claims. All settled for about 10000. It was a racket. Same with the County. "He touched my butt" "He put his hand on my shoulder".

Women can be toxic. Men can be toxic. To act like every teen age girl woman is this vessel of womanly purity and innocence, a fragile victim to the whims of rapacious males, is so offensive to me, as a 63 yr old woman and mother of daughters and sister to a wonderful brother and adopted sister to countless men. Should I go SS and report that trainer?

Were none of you ever 17? Do you remember being 17? were you fragile fairies, wilting and wringing your hands when somebody touched you inappropriately? And you call yourselves feminists?

Both sexes can be opportunists. It is our responsibility to stick up for ourselves and to teach our daughters not to see themselves as victims.

And once again, SS is necessary. But the process is flawed. Dance on the grave of a good man if it makes you all feel all virtuous and holy. Criticise those of us who don't see ourselves as victims all you like. Consider all men, your fathers and brothers and husbands potential rapists if you like and demand moral behavior for their entire lives and pasts, and if they don't measure up expose and punish them. Have at it.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:52 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:I think it is interesting that feminists, and I certainly consider myself one; I had a strongly political feminist mother and was raised with prochoice marches, MS magazine, Betty Friedan, etc etc etc. have somewhat of a disconnect regarding women and victimhood. Women should be soldiers, firefighters, executives...strong, able to climb any mountain etc etc. but OMG a man behaves badly and suddenly we are all hothouse flowers, trembling innocents, victims, permanently harmed and emotionally mutilated if someone says or does something inappropriate. Which one is it?
.


??? I don't think this is accurate.

Bip
Herd Member
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:04 am

Re: Safe sport

Postby Bip » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:03 pm

Abby, it doesn’t matter if you are a victim or not. His actions were abusive. Did you not understand the analogy of the drunk driver in the article Chisimba posted? The driver is behaving dangerously and illegally whether or not they injure anyone else on any given instance. And are you arguing that because you said no and he stopped (though apparently kept trying!), that he only continued with people who gave consent? Because that is ridiculous.


Return to “The Observation Lounge/ Cookbook Forum even Hot Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 55 guests