Safe sport

khall
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Re: Safe sport

Postby khall » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:33 pm

Good grief Abby, taking this a bit far aren't you? I am not dancing on RG's grave in any way. It was his decision to take his life. IMO that was a decision he made and can only be attributed to him. I am saying that from what is known that RG did have sexual relations with under age teenagers and he had to face the consequences of those actions as he should. Those allegations are being made by grown women now, not in the heat of the moment teenager trying to get out of getting into trouble for underage sex. They obviously were harmed by his actions in order for them to come out to SS which thankfully is working to safeguard the youth in our sport. You are blaming them for not being feminist enough to stand up for themselves, that is wrong and just as damaging as victim blaming. In no way is feminism a guarantee against being a victim of a predator. ANY grown man in a role of authority who has sexual relations with underage teenagers is a predator. They are using their position of authority and fame to have immoral and illegal sexual relationships and should pay the price, hopefully criminally as well as facing a ban. BTW in no way are we guaranteed as a right to be a member of USEF. There is no constitutional right to be a member of a riding organization.

You may think the process of SS is flawed, you have that right to your opinion. I feel different and am glad it is there to protect our youth in our sport. You also need to realize it is not just females that are targeted by pedophiles, young boys/teenagers are too. Are your going to denigrate them for not standing up for themselves as well? They aren't manly enough? That attitude is disgusting and harmful to those who have the courage to come forward after the fact like Anne Kurinski did with Jimmy Williams.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:42 pm

When I was little we were coming back from a party with the neighbor when our car broke down. We had to walk home along the fire break. After a while we heard lions . My brother suggested we run. Well that would have kept everyone safe except the slowest. I guess that theory is fine if you are very sure you are not the slowest. I stead Uncle Jazz, the neighbor, put us in a very tight group, put me, the smallest on his shoulders and had us sing Beatles songs at the top of our voice. We walked home safely. And yellow submarine had a permanent place in my memory.

I think Safe Sport is the attempt at an equivalence to Uncle Jazz. Let the strong carry the weak and stay secure as a group.

I guess some people prefer to be the ones strong enough to outrun the rest.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:53 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:I think it is interesting that feminists, and I certainly consider myself one; I had a strongly political feminist mother and was raised with prochoice marches, MS magazine, Betty Friedan, etc etc etc. have somewhat of a disconnect regarding women and victimhood. Women should be soldiers, firefighters, executives...strong, able to climb any mountain etc etc. but OMG a man behaves badly and suddenly we are all hothouse flowers, trembling innocents, victims, permanently harmed and emotionally mutilated if someone says or does something inappropriate. Which one is it?


Well. Here's my take.

Abby Kogler wrote:I am not talking assault. I am not talking violence or persistence or obnoxiousness or creepers or the myriad forms of sexual assault. If that trainer had ever pushed it or frightened me I would have absolutely reported/exposed him told my parents. When we were little we often rode our horses in a riverbottom, lots of trees and bamboo and secret places. My sister, at maybe 10, was riding with a friend and some creeper exposed himself masturbating. They girls rode home fast and told our parents who called the sheriff. The sheriff caught the guy and my sister and her friend had to identify him and he was arrested. Was she traumatized? No, she felt brave and proud that she had done the right thing. Was she a victim? She doesn't see herself that way.


The above is an example of enforcement of a law... which is exactly what I want to see. Behave badly, earn the repercussions. Is it any less of a breach of conduct because your sister felt empowered by being heard? No, the guy was still arrested.

Oh, and all I advocate for here is that we HEAR the people who say "actually, yes this bothered me". In your story, your sister did raise the complaint (presumably because she was at least a little bothered, and not blase about the whole experience). I want to live in a world where we allow for people to advocate for themselves and not blindly believe that Joe-Bob the bamboo-woods masturbator is to be believed over 10-yr-old AbbyK's sister.

Abby Kogler wrote:And because I am sure this will be twisted to make me into some sort of self loathing whatever (trust me, Ive heard it all) let me clarify. Pedophilia is a crime and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Rape is a crime and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Abusers and stalkers and groomers and sex traffickers should be reported and jailed to the full extent of the law and I would even argue death penalty.


Sex with minors is against the law. It's been against the law for decades before Rob had sex with minors.

Abby Kogler wrote:Those of you who trot out the statistics about how rare false rape/assault accusations are have led sheltered lives. look it up; most reports are teenage girls trying to keep out of trouble for having broken a family rule. In my brothers case it was a teen girl who he had rejected and she was angry. My mom was on the school boards for ten years and there were at least 12 sexual harassment claims. All settled for about 10000. It was a racket. Same with the County. "He touched my butt" "He put his hand on my shoulder".

Women can be toxic. Men can be toxic. To act like every teen age girl woman is this vessel of womanly purity and innocence, a fragile victim to the whims of rapacious males, is so offensive to me, as a 63 yr old woman and mother of daughters and sister to a wonderful brother and adopted sister to countless men. Should I go SS and report that trainer?

Were none of you ever 17? Do you remember being 17? were you fragile fairies, wilting and wringing your hands when somebody touched you inappropriately? And you call yourselves feminists?


12 claims in 10 years... how many students went through the school system in that time? Unless it's a tiny district, that sounds rare to me (if I assume that all 12 were false accusations).

The reason societies have laws against adults having sex with minors is that it IS damaging. Don't have sex with minors.

Abby Kogler wrote:Dance on the grave of a good man if it makes you all feel all virtuous and holy. Criticise those of us who don't see ourselves as victims all you like. Consider all men, your fathers and brothers and husbands potential rapists if you like and demand moral behavior for their entire lives and pasts, and if they don't measure up expose and punish them. Have at it.


OK. This does read like you're feeling victimized by the pushback. Nobody here is dancing on anyone's grave as far as I can see, although I recognize there's got to be some Facebook drama happening outside of this thread given some of the comments. And heck, it's possible for this guy to be an elite athlete, high-quality coach/trainer, and guilty of having sex with minors. We are not defined by a single aspect of our lives.

Gage's friends and family are hurting over his loss, which is fair and legitimate. That does not make the circumstances of his ban false, or Safe Sport a corrupt body. There's room for him to be a loved family member by some and still guilty of misbehavior.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:01 pm

And another thing!

I firmly believe the rules apply to everyone. That's feminism. That's equality. Nobody should get an exemption from acting lawfully because they're attractive, or talented, or rich, or their family loves them, or whatever. The world hasn't always been like that, but I for one am glad to see we're trying to make steps forward.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:04 pm

I don't think it's about being hot house flowers or fragile.

Just because we can handle something, doesn't mean it's right or that you should have to handle it. That man who put your hand down his shirt stopped when you asked him to, but what if he hadn't? then what? And what if he did it to someone without as much confidence as you?

And sure, yes, when I was 17 I thought i could handle the world. But now all this time later, I can look back and say that no matter how tough I thought I was at 17, no matter how mature I came off, I was still in fact very much a child.

These men that pursue relationships with minors are not being trapped or hoodwinked. They know they are engaging with minors, they know they should not be doing what they're doing. So, it's hard to feel that much sympathy in the choices they made and CONTINUED to make. This is not a one time slip, this is years and years of choosing to act for their own pleasure.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:30 pm

Let me try one more time. In every post I have made I say that I support SS. I am not alone in thinking that there are procedural problems. Other Olympic disciplines are also trying to make changes. And trust me I knew predatory gay guys too.

I also never once said I felt that Rob or the trainer/s I worked for and around were innocent. Ever. I have always agreed that their behavior was inappropriate. They should have known better, they should have had more self control. But they did live in a time and a world where promiscuity and sexual relationships were common and everywhere. Should they have been or still be jailed for participating in consensual sexual relationships forty years ago?

I am not sure how talking about different ways of viewing these sad events from a 63 yr old perspective when I was in that world at the time makes me a victim shamer. Or an apologist.

Thank you Ponichiwa for your measured response. The school districts were huge. But yes, it was not uncommon and it was expensive and very troubling for the districts and the men involved.

Blob, youre right. But I was not harmed. If he had done it to anyone I knew who would have been harmed I would have screamed bloody murder. We didn't care. We figured it came with the territory and he was just seeing if we were willing. We weren't. Enough were that it made it worth his while. I suspect he actually had no idea how old I was...I am very tall and always looked older that I was. I went to a bar with older friends that same first horse show and wasn't carded.

I absolutely believe Anne Kursinki. What Jimmy did was terrible. And so so wrong. But I am not able to define people lives by their flaws. Im sorry if that reveals something terrible about me. Its like looking back at Thomas Jefferson and saying because he had a relationship with Sally the slave the Constitution has no value.

I see that Chisamba deleted her post. Im glad she sees The Real Me, now, after years of cheerful on line friendship. Thank God she wont be fooled any longer. Im sorry she thinks I should resign my Steward license because I think SS can be made safer for all or that I think as long as I am safe the hell with the rest. I have not criticized USEF. I am not currently aware of any abusers nor am I protecting them. Im quite capable of following the rules of my organization/s. Rob Gage was not 'my idol'. He was a good guy who lacked judgement when he was young. He was ashamed and shattered. He paid a big price. Im not going to apologize for being sad about it.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby khall » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:38 pm

Actually I think it takes way more courage to speak out and follow through than it does to "handle it yourself" which does not protect the next person down the line they go after.

I would hope my Eagle scout of a DH and DS would have moral behavior for their entire lives when it comes to sex with minors. I can pretty much guarantee that with my immediate family. But if for some reason they did succumb to some underage advances then yes I would hold them accountable. Of course my DS is just about to turn 19, we live in Ga where age of consent is 16 (not that he would be dating a 16 yr old he is too wrapped up in college and autonomous vehicles) I dated at 17 a 19 yr old service man. My parents weren't happy especially when they asked if I was sexually active with him and I told them I was. But that was not illegal here in Ga and he was not 30+ years old, just EWWW. My DH is an attorney and is very aware of how he should behave in his life both because it is the right and moral thing to do and because it would jeopardize his livelihood, he could be disbarred.

Why is it so hard for some to realize that coaches and trainers have a position of power and should not be using that power fame and charm to have sex with minors? Would you want your child's teachers at school to behave in this way? What do you think about RJ Kelly then? He is facing criminal charges because of his behavior.

Abby none of us have said you should not be sad. None. I also can see that there were many sides to RG and he was well loved by many. But what he did was wrong and he should pay the price of his behavior. How do you know the process of SS was misapplied in this case? I don't think anyone can say that with certainty. The statement by the lawyer you posted has pretty much been disproven. COTH has a very well measured thread on the subject.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby tlkidding » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:10 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:I also never once said I felt that Rob or the trainer/s I worked for and around were innocent. Ever. I have always agreed that their behavior was inappropriate. They should have known better, they should have had more self control. But they did live in a time and a world where promiscuity and sexual relationships were common and everywhere. Should they have been or still be jailed for participating in consensual sexual relationships forty years ago?

I am not sure how talking about different ways of viewing these sad events from a 63 yr old perspective when I was in that world at the time makes me a victim shamer. Or an apologist.


You have no problem with someone who has been found to have a pattern of behavior assaulting minors continuing to operate within the USEF and have access to minors through USEF activities? How do we know the behavior has stopped and hasn't occurred in the last 20 years?

And how can you rationalize that because the person who assaulted you stopped and you never saw them do it to another person, they must have never done it to anyone else? How do you know they didn't keep doing it when you weren't there to see it?

SafeSport is exposing these people and the USEF has determined they should no longer participate in USEF activities.

People arguing against SafeSport, or portions of SafeSport, keep bringing up terms implying criminal prosecution (see "jailed" in quote above). SafeSport has nothing to do with criminal charges, except urging people to report to police or reporting criminal activities to police. So to me, when I see these terms tossed around in conjunction with SafeSport, I feel like the writer/speaker is not internalizing what SafeSport is meant to do and the responsibility of USEF. SafeSport investigates accusations of of behavior that are against the SafeSport standard, and if determined to be accurate, passes that along to the sports governing body (USEF), who then determines the punishment only as it relates to USEF activities. There is no enforcement or punishment outside of USEF activities unless the police are pursing a criminal investigation.

As a society, I think we have to come down hard on these offenses both within society (MeToo and SafeSport) and criminally, even if they are being reported years later until our culture has shifted to men being more aware of how their actions could affect the rest of their lives. Because we know that men's (and all predator's) actions can have a huge impact on the life of a victim. I'm fine with men feeling fear of the repercussions of their actions.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:31 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:Let me try one more time. In every post I have made I say that I support SS. I am not alone in thinking that there are procedural problems. Other Olympic disciplines are also trying to make changes. And trust me I knew predatory gay guys too.

I also never once said I felt that Rob or the trainer/s I worked for and around were innocent. Ever. I have always agreed that their behavior was inappropriate. They should have known better, they should have had more self control. But they did live in a time and a world where promiscuity and sexual relationships were common and everywhere. Should they have been or still be jailed for participating in consensual sexual relationships forty years ago?

I am not sure how talking about different ways of viewing these sad events from a 63 yr old perspective when I was in that world at the time makes me a victim shamer. Or an apologist.

Thank you Ponichiwa for your measured response. The school districts were huge. But yes, it was not uncommon and it was expensive and very troubling for the districts and the men involved.

Blob, youre right. But I was not harmed. If he had done it to anyone I knew who would have been harmed I would have screamed bloody murder. We didn't care. We figured it came with the territory and he was just seeing if we were willing. We weren't. Enough were that it made it worth his while. I suspect he actually had no idea how old I was...I am very tall and always looked older that I was. I went to a bar with older friends that same first horse show and wasn't carded.

I absolutely believe Anne Kursinki. What Jimmy did was terrible. And so so wrong. But I am not able to define people lives by their flaws. Im sorry if that reveals something terrible about me. Its like looking back at Thomas Jefferson and saying because he had a relationship with Sally the slave the Constitution has no value.

I see that Chisamba deleted her post. Im glad she sees The Real Me, now, after years of cheerful on line friendship. Thank God she wont be fooled any longer. Im sorry she thinks I should resign my Steward license because I think SS can be made safer for all or that I think as long as I am safe the hell with the rest. I have not criticized USEF. I am not currently aware of any abusers nor am I protecting them. Im quite capable of following the rules of my organization/s. Rob Gage was not 'my idol'. He was a good guy who lacked judgement when he was young. He was ashamed and shattered. He paid a big price. Im not going to apologize for being sad about it.


yes, and lacking judgement this severely has consequences, and these "flaws" are causing many people harm.

I also think making a pass at someone is not the same as harassing someone to the point of being misconduct.

Also, this isn't really about you....? its about how to apply the code of conduct in the context of USEF and those who show.

I think we are all flawed yes, and I think we should also hold those accountable for their actions such as these severe and wrong actions. They seem like people in need of therapy, monitoring and perhaps a psychiatric assessment. But I never met them and have no idea of context, so this just an opinion.

I think they need help, and the most compassionate action is to help them get what they need to move past this stuff. Its also going to be the best to prevent more people from being victims. Its about power and control, and there are people who are true sexual addicts. Saying "oh yeah its just a flaw" is not helping also get them what they need as a person. I'm guessing they were not very happy people, and this is very abnormal behavior that can be treated if they ask for help.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:50 pm

"You have no problem with someone who has been found to have a pattern of behavior assaulting minors continuing to operate within the USEF and have access to minors through USEF activities? How do we know the behavior has stopped and hasn't occurred in the last 20 years?"

Having lived in the era of John Lipari, Jimmie Williams, and other rapacious hetero and homosexual adult males I never considered Rob Gage a predator or molestor or assaulter. It kills me how you (universal you) can accuse me of so many things... not caring, victim shaming, on and on because I think SS needs to be better implemented. And because I think cases are different.

He lived in my town. I know the barns he worked at and the pony clubbers he worked with and his long time vet girlfriend. I have not heard anything ever about any pattern of behavior. He had girlfriends in the 80s who were under age. He shouldn't have done that. None of them should have behaved the way they did.

"And how can you rationalize that because the person who assaulted you stopped and you never saw them do it to another person, they must have never done it to anyone else? How do you know they didn't keep doing it when you weren't there to see it?"

I said the exact opposite. I wish you all would actually read what I write and not misquote me.

"SafeSport is exposing these people and the USEF has determined they should no longer participate in USEF activities. "

Good. I know its a problem. A well known headmaster of a private girls school that I knew well was sleeping with students FOR YEARS. He was reported to the headmaster, to parents, over and over. He brought a lot of money in to the school. It was ignored FOR YEARS. AFAIK he is also under a lifetime ban. Good.

"People arguing against SafeSport, or portions of SafeSport, keep bringing up terms implying criminal prosecution (see "jailed" in quote above). SafeSport has nothing to do with criminal charges, except urging people to report to police or reporting criminal activities to police. So to me, when I see these terms tossed around in conjunction with SafeSport, I feel like the writer/speaker is not internalizing what SafeSport is meant to do and the responsibility of USEF. SafeSport investigates accusations of of behavior that are against the SafeSport standard, and if determined to be accurate, passes that along to the sports governing body (USEF), who then determines the punishment only as it relates to USEF activities. There is no enforcement or punishment outside of USEF activities unless the police are pursing a criminal investigation."

I have not commented on that view.

"As a society, I think we have to come down hard on these offenses both within society (MeToo and SafeSport) and criminally, even if they are being reported years later until our culture has shifted to men being more aware of how their actions could affect the rest of their lives. Because we know that men's (and all predator's) actions can have a huge impact on the life of a victim. I'm fine with men feeling fear of the repercussions of their actions.[/quote]"

I agree. I also think it is important to remember that both men and women of all ages can lie.

I hope that everyones loved ones, male and female, of any age, are never harried to death, never wrongly accused, never made mistakes that come back to haunt them to this extent. I hope that all abusers, male, female, or any age and persuasion, are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I get that USEF is a member organization and has the right to have a code of conduct. I also think that people can be vindictive, that the reporting process can and should be improved. I also think that intent and patterns matter. Even in those days of his misbehavior no one considered him a pedophile or that he ever assaulted anyone or made advances to an unwilling recipient which is how I consider "assault". Bad judgement, lack of self control, whatever. I get it. It was wrong, and clearly he knew it if not at the time then as he aged.

Lotta piety going on here. I am a woman, still a feminist, a mother, a wife, a sister, a daughter. And a lifelong horsegirl. Not sure why my comments are bringing out the judgements that some of you are making. Glad I was given permission to have an opinion of problems I see in SS. Surprised that that means I am an enabler, shamer, etc.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:16 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:"You have no problem with someone who has been found to have a pattern of behavior assaulting minors continuing to operate within the USEF and have access to minors through USEF activities? How do we know the behavior has stopped and hasn't occurred in the last 20 years?"

Having lived in the era of John Lipari, Jimmie Williams, and other rapacious hetero and homosexual adult males I never considered Rob Gage a predator or molestor or assaulter. It kills me how you (universal you) can accuse me of so many things... not caring, victim shaming, on and on because I think SS needs to be better implemented. And because I think cases are different.

He lived in my town. I know the barns he worked at and the pony clubbers he worked with and his long time vet girlfriend. I have not heard anything ever about any pattern of behavior. He had girlfriends in the 80s who were under age. He shouldn't have done that. None of them should have behaved the way they did.

"And how can you rationalize that because the person who assaulted you stopped and you never saw them do it to another person, they must have never done it to anyone else? How do you know they didn't keep doing it when you weren't there to see it?"

I said the exact opposite. I wish you all would actually read what I write and not misquote me.

"SafeSport is exposing these people and the USEF has determined they should no longer participate in USEF activities. "

Good. I know its a problem. A well known headmaster of a private girls school that I knew well was sleeping with students FOR YEARS. He was reported to the headmaster, to parents, over and over. He brought a lot of money in to the school. It was ignored FOR YEARS. AFAIK he is also under a lifetime ban. Good.

"People arguing against SafeSport, or portions of SafeSport, keep bringing up terms implying criminal prosecution (see "jailed" in quote above). SafeSport has nothing to do with criminal charges, except urging people to report to police or reporting criminal activities to police. So to me, when I see these terms tossed around in conjunction with SafeSport, I feel like the writer/speaker is not internalizing what SafeSport is meant to do and the responsibility of USEF. SafeSport investigates accusations of of behavior that are against the SafeSport standard, and if determined to be accurate, passes that along to the sports governing body (USEF), who then determines the punishment only as it relates to USEF activities. There is no enforcement or punishment outside of USEF activities unless the police are pursing a criminal investigation."

I have not commented on that view.

"As a society, I think we have to come down hard on these offenses both within society (MeToo and SafeSport) and criminally, even if they are being reported years later until our culture has shifted to men being more aware of how their actions could affect the rest of their lives. Because we know that men's (and all predator's) actions can have a huge impact on the life of a victim. I'm fine with men feeling fear of the repercussions of their actions.
"

I agree. I also think it is important to remember that both men and women of all ages can lie.

I hope that everyones loved ones, male and female, of any age, are never harried to death, never wrongly accused, never made mistakes that come back to haunt them to this extent. I hope that all abusers, male, female, or any age and persuasion, are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I get that USEF is a member organization and has the right to have a code of conduct. I also think that people can be vindictive, that the reporting process can and should be improved. I also think that intent and patterns matter. Even in those days of his misbehavior no one considered him a pedophile or that he ever assaulted anyone or made advances to an unwilling recipient which is how I consider "assault". Bad judgement, lack of self control, whatever. I get it. It was wrong, and clearly he knew it if not at the time then as he aged.

Lotta piety going on here. I am a woman, still a feminist, a mother, a wife, a sister, a daughter. And a lifelong horsegirl. Not sure why my comments are bringing out the judgements that some of you are making. Glad I was given permission to have an opinion of problems I see in SS. Surprised that that means I am an enabler, shamer, etc.[/quote][quote="Abby Kogler"]

END QUOTE.


My thought: but you just said people have flaws and we should move on? Not sure if you are actually playing both sides but it seems like it.

Piety? It has religious context, so I am not sure that really fits here?

devoutly religious.
synonyms: religious, devout, devoted, dedicated, reverent, God-fearing, churchgoing, spiritual, prayerful, holy, godly, saintly, faithful, dutiful, righteous
"a pious family"

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Bip » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:14 pm

Abby, I’m wondering if it ever occurred to you that the behavior that got him suspended might not have been what you (or anyone other than the target) saw in public.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:03 am

Bip wrote:Abby, I’m wondering if it ever occurred to you that the behavior that got him suspended might not have been what you (or anyone other than the target) saw in public.


From what I understand and of course "it has occurred to me" that I am wrong, no. The two complaints I know of were the ones people knew of at the time. I left the West Coast show world in 1986 when I moved to MA but I still went Indoors and still had friends here. On the East Coast I met the same types, the same players, different names, same games. I know first hand that the director of riding was reported over and over. He finally did something so blatant that the school could no longer pretend and he was fired.

The horse show world was and still is pretty incestuous. You travel with these people week after week, you see them all day every day and you go to parties or gatherings after work. Its pretty hard to keep anything a secret, between grooms and braiders and muckers and friends and parents and hangers on everybody pretty much knows the rumors, the gossip, the goings on, you can figure what is rumor and what is true usually and you get a good sense of what they are capable of.

Rye, by piety I do mean holy, as in holier than thou. I think there is some of that in this discussion. Its the sacred cow of MeToo, that All Should Be Believed No Matter What and if we question that or disagree with that we are part of the problem and I don't agree with that. Im sure my brother's false accusation helped form my feelings on the matter, and the false harassment suits that the districts just settled out of ease and cost. Maybe I sound like I am on 'both sides' cause I probly am...I see people and situations as complicated, I see good people do shitty things and shitty people capable of doing good. I think the helpless should be protected and I also think that part of protecting can mean telling people/girls/kids to protect each other and to stand up for themselves. I believe that there is a difference between malice and bad judgement. I never felt afraid of the trainer who stuck his hands down/up my shirt. I worked for him several times through the years through college and never had another problem and never heard either that he scared anybody. Lots of women had crushes on him and would have been happy to have had him try. I didn't, he got it, and treated me after with respect. He was good at what he did, I learned a lot, and was a good boss.

In case anybody missed it, I am glad we have SS. I just hope the Olympic Committee addresses the concerns people are raising. The are valid and legitimate.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby khall » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Abby your opinion on SS and its implication is not why I said your comments were disgusting, but your emphasis on feminism and judging the accusers without any information: women are vindictive and your rationalizing RG's actions: it was so long ago, he learned better, the teenagers threw themselves at him. You say we need SS but you don't agree with what happened with RG, yet you agree what he did was wrong. How do you know he changed his ways? How do you know what affect that sexual relationship had on the now women? You still are also not understanding that both the trainer that approached you and RG just by having sexual relations with under age teenagers what they did was against the law. Period the end. Criminal behavior that if it was not past statute of limitations they would be facing criminal charges as well. I will leave with the words that another well known trainer has said: When we know better, we do better.

We know better now. We have to do better for our children both male and female. Teach them what is acceptable and what is not. Hold adults accountable for their actions. That is how changes are made.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:38 am

I would quit if my boss did that but to each their own. I could not stay and support someone after that even if as you say "they are a good boss".

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Hot4Spots » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:11 pm

Ryeissa wrote:I get that we need ruled but I just see this as safe sport trying to act like police. Let it be a criminal charge first. Its so much bigger than horse showing.



I have to agree. A more proper procedure would be a TEMPORARY suspension, an investigation (with all legal protections in place for both accuser and accused), and then the information turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution or not, based on the evidence. The way it is now SafeSport is judge, jury and enforcer.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:51 pm

Hot4Spots wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:I get that we need ruled but I just see this as safe sport trying to act like police. Let it be a criminal charge first. Its so much bigger than horse showing.



I have to agree. A more proper procedure would be a TEMPORARY suspension, an investigation (with all legal protections in place for both accuser and accused), and then the information turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution or not, based on the evidence. The way it is now SafeSport is judge, jury and enforcer.



right, and its best for everyone if you let the lawyers and social workers do their thing first. I don't know a ton about it but I wonder if any of these investigations can be used as evidence in court, and how. I would hate for a victim to not get what they need because of someone making a poor judgement in SS. This is all very unclear and lets hope it gets sorted.

And then the second issue is the Court of Social Media. My first concern is the welfare of the victim......I don't think I would want to be on the chopping block on these sites so if I was a victim I would probably not disclose. Its not safe and would make the experience exponentially traumatic

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Re: Safe sport

Postby tlkidding » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:57 pm

Hot4Spots wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:I get that we need ruled but I just see this as safe sport trying to act like police. Let it be a criminal charge first. Its so much bigger than horse showing.



I have to agree. A more proper procedure would be a TEMPORARY suspension, an investigation (with all legal protections in place for both accuser and accused), and then the information turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution or not, based on the evidence. The way it is now SafeSport is judge, jury and enforcer.


Again, I feel like some are missing the point of SafeSport. SafeSport is a civil institution, not responsible for criminal prosecution and does not have to comply with the criminal investigation process/standards. And SafeSport (which is the investigator with an external party the mediator) provides the result of the investigation to the club/sport governing body, which then determines the punishment. And again, the punishment is not a state-based punishment, it only affect the accused's participation in activities related to the sport's governing body. So someone with a lifetime ban with USEF can no longer participate in USEF programs/clinics or shows. That's all, they can still run a barn, train horses, and have clients.

A suspension put in place after an accusation but before completion of the investigation is handed out only if there is the possibility that minors could still be in danger from the accused if they continue participating in sport's activities. There have been suspensions lifted after the investigation was concluded.

Criminal charges depend on the criminal statute of limitations as well as proving beyond a reasonable doubt (FYI, many states have no statute of limitations for civil action for sexual assault of a minor). SafeSport only has to prove guilt to their civil standard, not the standard for criminal prosecution. And can we all acknowledge the statistics on the small number of sexual assault charges actually brought to trial, not to mention a guilty verdict and a truly harsh sentence...

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:26 pm

tlkidding wrote:
Hot4Spots wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:I get that we need ruled but I just see this as safe sport trying to act like police. Let it be a criminal charge first. Its so much bigger than horse showing.



I have to agree. A more proper procedure would be a TEMPORARY suspension, an investigation (with all legal protections in place for both accuser and accused), and then the information turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution or not, based on the evidence. The way it is now SafeSport is judge, jury and enforcer.


Again, I feel like some are missing the point of SafeSport. SafeSport is a civil institution, not responsible for criminal prosecution and does not have to comply with the criminal investigation process/standards. And SafeSport (which is the investigator with an external party the mediator) provides the result of the investigation to the club/sport governing body, which then determines the punishment. And again, the punishment is not a state-based punishment, it only affect the accused's participation in activities related to the sport's governing body. So someone with a lifetime ban with USEF can no longer participate in USEF programs/clinics or shows. That's all, they can still run a barn, train horses, and have clients.

A suspension put in place after an accusation but before completion of the investigation is handed out only if there is the possibility that minors could still be in danger from the accused if they continue participating in sport's activities. There have been suspensions lifted after the investigation was concluded.

Criminal charges depend on the criminal statute of limitations as well as proving beyond a reasonable doubt (FYI, many states have no statute of limitations for civil action for sexual assault of a minor). SafeSport only has to prove guilt to their civil standard, not the standard for criminal prosecution. And can we all acknowledge the statistics on the small number of sexual assault charges actually brought to trial, not to mention a guilty verdict and a truly harsh sentence...


I know, I just think SS needs to be making this uber clear. they aren't.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Sue B » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:33 pm

Such a tough topic. I haven't yet done the stupid training modules to rejoin USEF, but only because I have to do other training modules annually to be a 4H leader and they are all, in the end, meaningless. My son was abducted at our local fair and was fortunate to be rescued before being hauled off to a private place to be sexually assaulted. He was subjected to, however, heinous videos of necromancy and violent porn, and descriptions of what would be done to his parents if he ever reported him. The person who assaulted him was later convicted of raping another 9yr old boy and sent to prison. He was let out early for "good behavior" and 6 months later re-arrested for kidnapping and holding prisoner a woman and her 10 year old daughter. They found the women chained in a barn and videos of what he and his accomplice (cell mate from prison) did to the little girl. He claims the older cell mate "made" him do it. I tried following the instructions I had received from my leader training on how to report an assault and get help for the victim. Useless. Finally dawned on me to call his pediatrician, who then gave me phone numbers to various agencies, and eventually to a wonderful therapist. It all ended well for my son, but agencies like SS don't really help or provide protection in the here and now. I think they may deter some real pedophiles and I think they are good at making clear what is and isn't acceptable behavior--male or female.

I'm sorry Rob Gage committed suicide. As one who was falsely accused and convicted of assault, I know how much pain he was feeling. I also know, however, you can, in the end, survive and carry on in a happy productive life. It is your choice. I suspect that RG was not falsely accused, but that he also was not aware of the damage he was inflicting while he groomed his ego. I do not have a great deal of patience with those who make accusations based on acts occurring decades ago, but perhaps his accusers were aware of those actions continuing into the present and were trying to put an end to it. I have no idea.

I also have to agree that there are many nasty women out there who use these things vindictively, and I worry for my son in this world where men are guilty and have to somehow prove their innocence. I also would like folks to remember that women commit sexual crimes too. When I was in high school, a voluptuous female teacher was constantly coming on to the male students--she was quietly fired at the end of the school year. Same thing happened at the university I attended. The male students generally found these female teachers' advances amusing and somewhat annoying. They did not feel victimized, however. Locally, we had a case in which a married female teacher was engaged in a lesbian affair with a female student. Student was 17, does that make it okay? The law thought not and she was sent to prison and will forever more be known as a pedophile. I find that appropriate. In universities, students are, for the most part, adults, and yet it is an actionable offence for a teacher to engage in an intimate relationship with a student--binary or not. I think that's the umbrella under which coaches and trainers fall; therefore they need to be held to the same standard.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:46 pm

wow sue how traumatic....sorry to hear that happened....

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:26 pm

all genders are capable of sexual crime, hetero and homo sexual predation occurs.

sexual crime, even harassment, between adults with a power structure difference in the work place, the sport place or any organization hurts everyone, not just the "couple" involved. even favoritism, without the sex, is demoralizing in a work, sport or organized environment, but you add the sexual component in and it becomes illegal.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:24 am

So now you have a name and an age (13) how is your narrative going to shift, from "I was there and it wasnt abuse?" 13 is okay because she threw herself at him?

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:50 am

Sue B, I would dispute that the Safe Sport training is meaningless for a significant portion of the population. I rather grudgingly sat down one evening and went through the training because I had to. I don't have to do this kind of thing in any other walk of my life and I have little contact with children and young people outside of the horse world.

I actually found it rather illuminating. Apart from making me think about was and was not acceptable behavior, it also gave me a framework for reporting and hoe to address a potential problem that I would not have had before.

And I'm pretty damned sure that unless they grew up under rocks, Rob Gage and his ilk knew what they were doing was wrong even back in the day. They thought they could get away with it because of their positions of trust and power. I knew men like them who preyed on vulnerable young people in my worlds of the theater and arts, too. Their behavior was actually frowned on by most people, even in that bohemian culture. I really can't imagine that it was so blithely accepted in the equestrian world.

I'm truly sorry he felt the need to take his own life, but I don't think he deserved to be given a pass for the damage he inflicted.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:45 pm

Chisamba wrote:So now you have a name and an age (13) how is your narrative going to shift, from "I was there and it wasnt abuse?" 13 is okay because she threw herself at him?


has new information come out?

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Re: Safe sport

Postby khall » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:11 pm

Blob Yes it did:

Public information from Hillary Ridland: RG’s abuse started when she was 13. Four other victims stood up with her Saturday after the Grand Prix at The Oaks. Rob was in his late 20s and 30s at that time.

If you don't know who Hillary Ridland is:
http://www.lagunabeachhorselovers.com/c ... join-tour/

There is no way any of this behavior could be explained away. One of the other women who stepped forward was 14 at the time. RG was a predator in the worst sense of the word, using his power over his students for his own sexual pleasure. Reminiscent of JW.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:36 pm

khall wrote:Blob Yes it did:

Public information from Hillary Ridland: RG’s abuse started when she was 13. Four other victims stood up with her Saturday after the Grand Prix at The Oaks. Rob was in his late 20s and 30s at that time.

If you don't know who Hillary Ridland is:
http://www.lagunabeachhorselovers.com/c ... join-tour/

There is no way any of this behavior could be explained away. One of the other women who stepped forward was 14 at the time. RG was a predator in the worst sense of the word, using his power over his students for his own sexual pleasure. Reminiscent of JW.


Ugh, yes, what an awful situation.

I'm sorry that the women felt the need to publicly come forward. But in doing so they are helping to make it clear that the USEF bans are not over small things.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:03 pm

The worst part about crimes like this is that they just don't stick with "just" one accusation. Yes, but it was consensual. Yes, but they were an open secret. Yes, but he's a really sexy guy and can't help that young women throw themselves at him.

Until one more comes forward, and one more, and one more, and it turns out it's not just the one girl who was almost 18, it's at least 4 and at least two of them were 14 or younger.

That's what makes abuse cases so hard to enforce: innocent until proven guilty in a he-said-she-said case means he's always going to get off free unless she's got hard evidence, or until there are enough similar sounding stories from enough women that we can't ignore it anymore.

Breaks my heart.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Koolkat » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:39 pm

tlkidding wrote:Maybe I'm especially sensitive today - I just watched Roll Red Roll on PBS last night and it was horrifying the things peers and adults could say about a teenager that was assaulted, details of which were captured on video and social media.

Ten or twenty years later, I think the victims should be honored for sharing their stories, and if there is an organization that will pick up the case and investigate, I don't see anything wrong with that.


Thanks to your reference to Roll Red Roll, I watched it that evening when it popped up in "new videos" on PBS. Just UGH :shock: . And all the references (and phone video) of the boys laughing about the rape/victim. Reminded me of a certain California woman when describing her salient memory of an event, which is why I also included the 2nd paragraph in the quote. . .

With apologies for the distraction.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:15 am

Chisamba wrote:So now you have a name and an age (13) how is your narrative going to shift, from "I was there and it wasnt abuse?" 13 is okay because she threw herself at him?


13 is not okay. End of story. Don't put words in my mouth.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:14 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:
Chisamba wrote:So now you have a name and an age (13) how is your narrative going to shift, from "I was there and it wasnt abuse?" 13 is okay because she threw herself at him?


13 is not okay. End of story. Don't put words in my mouth.


Those words are words you used when you chose to defend a man suspended for sex abuse of minors on my Facebook page.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby greenhorse » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:03 am

Chancellor wrote:
Well, ain't that the truth? It really should fall to the parents to stand up for their kids in my mind.


What about the kids with crappy parents? Who stands up for them? Predators often go for the most vulnerable precisely because they know they have a better chance of getting away with it.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:51 am

greenhorse wrote:
Chancellor wrote:
Well, ain't that the truth? It really should fall to the parents to stand up for their kids in my mind.


What about the kids with crappy parents? Who stands up for them? Predators often go for the most vulnerable precisely because they know they have a better chance of getting away with it.


I don't think parents realize they too are being groomed. Look how many people stood up for JW and RG.. when JW was reported he and his buddy confronted the parent and child face to face and basically the person they reported to was manipulated into backing up the abuser. I kind if like the fact that safe sport is separate and therefore immune to the power play of the sport demagogues.
Last edited by Chisamba on Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:31 pm

Chisamba wrote:
Abby Kogler wrote:
Chisamba wrote:So now you have a name and an age (13) how is your narrative going to shift, from "I was there and it wasnt abuse?" 13 is okay because she threw herself at him?


13 is not okay. End of story. Don't put words in my mouth.


Those words are words you used when you chose to defend a man suspended for sex abuse of minors on my Facebook page.


I did not ever defend abuse of minors, here or on your fb page. The two that I knew were older teenagers. I did not know or hear of the 13 yr old.

No one at the time considered RGs relationships with the older teenagers abuse. They were public, the girls were proud. No one considered them minors or victims. In many states they would not have been. That is all I ever said.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:11 pm

The fact remains that because he was charming, many people attacked safe sport and basically blamed the survivors. The position if power and age difference ,between him and even of the "older" teens was inappropriate.

People wrote on AK and HR Facebook pages accusing them of murder.

Safe sport released a statement saying RG was suspended for abuse of several minors. BT said that another case was brought against him and the day after he heard who he gave up.

So his own friend acknowledged yet another, and still his friends had the gall to defend him. Several minors. And arbitration paused for another, but no the people who were there were still victim blaming.

Oh the parents should have known

Oh they threw themselves at him.

Oh safe sport over reached.

Anything but put the blame where it belongs.

Let's just grow up and understand that a person in a position of power having sex with an "older teen" who is his student is unacceptable behavior. People kept blurring the age difference, oh she was nearly eighteen and he barely twenty, but if you did the math, he was nearer to 30 and even if they were "older teens" wait til they are legal ffs. And dont the, in some states it's legal bullshit is still excusing a pedophile rapist because he was charming.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:53 pm

My first husband was an Ag teacher at a high school. We were young and he was very good looking. The teen age girls were relentless. Notes on his desk, notes on his truck, driving by our house, coming to the door, needing 'help' with school work...these girls were 14, 15, 16. It was crazy.

He was very careful to never be alone with any of them for one second.

I think men, and women/girls can be liars, opportunists, manipulators. I don't know what world some of you all live in but in mine, predators and victims come in all ages and genders and preferences. Expecting teen age girls to behave themselves and not chase older men is not victim shaming. The girls I was aware of at that time were THRILLED to be in a relationship with him. THRILLED. I don't know about the other ones and if they were young than yes that is terribly different. Expecting older men to keep their pants zipped is of course THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. Another well known rider/trainer/winner also had a relationship with a girl much younger, she was under 18 I imagine when it started. They were married, have kids, are still together however many years later.

I never once said SS was not necessary. But I also raised my daughters to HAVE BRAINS and not chase men. Some of you all are so busy seeing every weak man as a predator and every woman/girl as a victim. I don't think things are that clear or that black and white SOME TIMES.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 pm

Teenagers do not have good risk-assessing abilities. They don't. They drive too fast, they seek thrills, they push boundaries.

That's why the onus is on the adults to behave, you know, legally.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby khall » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:37 pm

I agree 100% with Chisamba, Ponichiwa and I find it disturbing AK's reaction to RG's ban. "If they were young" that right there is why many do not come out. These adult women now have come out publicly and spoke about the abuse they were subjected to by RG. One was 13 one was 14. This conversation stemmed from the backlash that RG's suicide released and all of the misinformation from that case. AK and others were wanting to blame SS for his death and ban rather than attributing to his actions with minor children as a mentor and trainer of sexual misconduct with those children. This unwillingness to face facts even now is disturbing. You can pat yourself on the back all you want about raising daughters to have brains, but as shown these predatory men have power (JW) and use that power to control these young girls for their own pleasure. Who knows what RG said to get those young girls to do as he wanted. I have no sadness for his death, it appears he was unwilling to face his actions and accusers.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby musical comedy » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:15 am

Omg, they've put George Morris on the suspended list! Incidents that occurred 1968 and 1972. I remember hearing stuff about him and young boys way back.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:56 am

musical comedy wrote:Omg, they've put George Morris on the suspended list! Incidents that occurred 1968 and 1972. I remember hearing stuff about him and young boys way back.


His PR machine listed the date, I feel it's likely there is more. Yes lots of stuff about him. I thought it would only come to suspension post his death. He still wields a lot of power.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Tuddy » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:16 pm

I am interested to hear what happens with this George Morris case. The "Court of Social Media" as stated above (which, by the way, has become my new favorite term), is having a real go at it on my personal Facebook page.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby blob » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:53 pm

George is such a public and beloved figure for many so I'm sure he will get a LOT of support. He's also stated that he plans to appeal, so I suspect this will be a topic of conversation for some time.

I will say that in all of the higher profile cases, the accusations went far beyond one person that one time. So again, I suspect that in this case there are probably multiple victims and a pattern of abuse.

Edited to add: There is a whole "I stand with George" movement on social media being led by many that know him/have been his students. But I think it's a slippery slope just because Students A, B, and C were never abused that does not mean Students F and P weren't. I understand how hard it can be to reconcile a positive image you have of someone you admire and accusations like this. But I hope that doesn't lead to hysterics or victim blaming.

I think George is an intersting case because it will show the impact over time of something like this. If GM's ruling stands, will he stop booking up clinics? Will people stop quoting him as often as they do now. Will there be a short period of turnout, only for everyone to forgive and forget? Hard to tell.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:49 pm

I find this all very hard to understand- I have read a lot on Safe Sport and the proceedings. I have hesitations about the process (they are not lawyers or judges, etc), but in theory I think its very important to protect people from abuse.

I wish the victims would have a court case and get jail time for the offenders. Being suspended is a good start, but there is a lot of grey area as how we react as a community. I personally do not feel SS should mandate texting, giving rides, etc to people when they are in their own home and barn. I think we can make our own decisions and choices.

US equestrian happens in smaller sects- now if you are the US Gymnastic training center then yes, that is a location that I can understanding having rules and process....someone's barn? no. If someone is that violent and egotistical they will find a way to abuse.

Social media has gone f-nuts. I am not sure what to think.those who have an opinion are stating facts on both sides. Its very muddy and not helpful for the victims.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby PaulaO » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:08 pm

I spent my lunch hour reading the multi page thread on CoH, and assorted FB pages, including Diane Carny who has removed her "I support George" postings. I am gobsmacked at how many people are defending George, saying what happened 50 years isn't relevant, that he is a god and therefore should be above suspension, and how SS killed Rob Gage. The ignorance of people continues to amaze me. If GM's actions, however many years ago, fulfill the suspension requirements of SS, then that's the way it is. Nobody get a pass. Those CoH and FB deniers people can pound sand.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:14 pm

Our criminal justice system will not be the arbiter of justice for the majority of sex crimes. The standard for evidence that a crime was even committed is high. The social cost of bringing charges is high. The standard for determining guilt is higher still.

Rightly, we live in a society where it is not easy to take away someone's freedom. Incarceration is a big deal! It certainly should require a high standard. But the reality of what sex crimes are-- well, they're generally first-person accounts with little (or no) physical evidence. Plaintiff vs. defendant. And there's no presumption of innocence for the plaintiff, either-- "what were you wearing?" "why didn't you fight back?"

Again, I was a juror in a recent case of sexual assault of a minor. It's horrifying what those girls had to go through to get the case to that point.

So hell yeah I'm ok with systems that do not require the same standard (i.e. Safesport) providing some regulation on frankly predatory behavior. I find the blowback against safesport from the equestrian community at large to be atrocious-- for god's sake, one of the people leading the charge has a criminal conviction for sexually abusing minors!

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:30 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Our criminal justice system will not be the arbiter of justice for the majority of sex crimes.


well, it should be. there is a huge difference in code of conduct issues and criminal issues. SS isn't picking a lane and is acting like a court but isn't ....

The mandates of the members goes too far in ways I don't feel address the real problems.

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:45 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
Ponichiwa wrote:Our criminal justice system will not be the arbiter of justice for the majority of sex crimes.


well, it should be. there is a huge difference in code of conduct issues and criminal issues. SS isn't picking a lane and is acting like a court but isn't ....

The mandates of the members goes too far in ways I don't feel address the real problems.


I've delineated lots of reasons why the criminal justice system will not decide most sex crimes. Until the burden of evidence is high enough (generally: video of the assault, DNA, or preponderance of victims with similar MO), there just isn't enough to convict. Add to that the fact that prosecuting attorneys generally have an eye on their conviction rate, and you get a system that is essentially designed in favor of the accused.

Which, for the reasons I wrote upthread, is consistent with our values as a country. That said, there's no reason why we have to provide livelihoods for predators.

The bans that Safe Sport have handed out are not for texting a student without ccing a parent. They're not for driving a minor to a tack store, or whatever other contrived example is out there. They've been warranted.

No industry effectively polices itself. We need some level of oversight in this industry-- just look at the drug charges, or the ridiculous "business practices" i.e. undisclosed dual agency in horse sales, etc. Let's get some honesty in the horse business. We'll all be better for it.

Ryeissa
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Re: Safe sport

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:04 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:
Ponichiwa wrote:Our criminal justice system will not be the arbiter of justice for the majority of sex crimes.


well, it should be. there is a huge difference in code of conduct issues and criminal issues. SS isn't picking a lane and is acting like a court but isn't ....

The mandates of the members goes too far in ways I don't feel address the real problems.


I've delineated lots of reasons why the criminal justice system will not decide most sex crimes. Until the burden of evidence is high enough (generally: video of the assault, DNA, or preponderance of victims with similar MO), there just isn't enough to convict. Add to that the fact that prosecuting attorneys generally have an eye on their conviction rate, and you get a system that is essentially designed in favor of the accused.

Which, for the reasons I wrote upthread, is consistent with our values as a country. That said, there's no reason why we have to provide livelihoods for predators.

The bans that Safe Sport have handed out are not for texting a student without ccing a parent. They're not for driving a minor to a tack store, or whatever other contrived example is out there. They've been warranted.

No industry effectively polices itself. We need some level of oversight in this industry-- just look at the drug charges, or the ridiculous "business practices" i.e. undisclosed dual agency in horse sales, etc. Let's get some honesty in the horse business. We'll all be better for it.


I agree there needs to be better management, I just don't think this is the whole story.

USEF is not "the industry"-I know many many people who are very active but aren't USEF members. It has 100,000 members.
AQHA has 234,000 (2018).
Reining has 14,818

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Chisamba
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Re: Safe sport

Postby Chisamba » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:24 pm

I really read the safe sport pages, especially 23 on, and then i read again and looked at the flow chart. I feel in this case three things, there have long been whispers, not only of his enjoyment of young boys, ( Ephebophilia) but outright bullying and abusive behavior, but safe sport only hands down the max penalty ( which it did in this case) if its investigation has been conducted and yes it may be appealed.

It will be interesting to see if SS is able to withstand the appeal. I do not think it will destroy GM's lively hood, killing a horse did not, being a bully did not, he seems to have survived quite a lot of mud.

safe sport itself does not release detail so the PR machine gM has hired has already layed the foundation of its support by suggesting it was one report long ago. the PR know that people will victim blame and stand by their man, based on how they reacted to Gage.

Since SS is not part of the horse industry and not part of the USEF and a government agency, they are designed not be affected by the status of the accused, but, in all honestly, I do not think they would have handed down this particular finding if they did not feel they had enough evidence to stand against the equestrian push back

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Re: Safe sport

Postby Benatus » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:06 am

It’s a good step

In h/j’s it seems like it’s teens and tweens and young adult men.

Funny how anecdotal info from one person who “handled” a situation fails really show how predators learn and become better at picking victims.
Just bc I kicked a creep in the nuts when he tried to come at me in the feed room, doesn’t mean next victim will.
And victims do fight back, but it’s hard when you feel isolated to pursue justice.

The whole “consenting teenager” thing deserves scrutiny.

Nothing like easy stereotypes to check the mental hat at the door


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