Trainers selling clients horse so they can ride them

[musical comedy]

Why does this irk me big time? It's none of my business. It doesn't affect me. I guess I just hate to see people getting used. These people don't realize they are getting used though, so I guess it doesn't matter. As long as they are happy, right? Most recent one I saw the rider can't even get the horse on the bit. Not even a TL rider. Today I see trainer doing passage on the horse. He probably cost a fortune because he is young with a stellar show record. I can pretty much guarantee several of these horses I know about will get shown, and not by their owner. Well, the trainer will show high level and the student will show TL maybe.

[Josette]

I totally agree with you and have seen it several times. It left a me with a fairly negative attitude for dressage and trainers who use students this way. Some students have the financial means to purchase the talented fancy dressage horses - then are never able to ride them. The trainers take care of their business goals for income and access to talented horses to show. IMO, these trainers are focused on their career and do not care about teaching their clients to learn to be better riders. Instead give me the trainer who is willing to work and train different types of riders and horses. Now - that trainer is someone who I would respect and admire.

[Tarlo Farm]

But isn't this essentially what happens at the International level? Maybe most of the owners of Olympic level horses can ride PSG, and a few at GP and I levels, but can they compete at an international level? I don't think so. They are happy - thrilled - to watch their horses progress.

[blob]

Not quite the same thing, but I am also irritated by trainers who constantly convince their clients they need a horse upgrade. There is a very well respected trainer that I know of. She is a really nice rider and her students do really well. but every student that goes to her ends up trading in what they went to her with for a much fancier, more expensive horse--and yes, often a horse they cannot handle without very regular training rides by this trainer. When I work with a trainer, I want them to make me a better rider, not for them to tell me that I need a better horse.

[exvet]

This is rampant and really is part of the 'dressage' machine much like the hunter machine producing ponies (juniors) on up through generations of riders but mostly geared towards wealthy parents (some kids want to and learn to ride and many others are simply living their parents' dreams) and middle aged/older women living the dream. Many of the owners I know are 'happy' with the arrangement. Some of the trainers I know have 'tried' to give instruction to the owner/client but the learning curve requires more sweat equity and time than the owner's have (or are willing to put in-you can't force a client to want to endure the 'pain' to learn) so the reality is - it's the closest the owner will get to 'the big time'. I only am irked when it's clear that the owner is being taken advantage of and is unknowingly being kept 'ignorant' with regard to their riding/horsemanship skills and yet have a true desire and willingness to learn - ie, just another stepping stone for the trainer.

[Kelo]

Yeah, it's a bigger problem than just dressage specifically.

I have a friend who is limited in her abilities, but had a SAFE albeit limited horse that she rode. You know the kind - ride it every day, it's good, ride it once a month, same horse. Anyway, friend moved, and a year or so later, the limited horse was sold and my friend and her new trainer are in Europe, buying a young high-end warmblood. I was all when she told me (incidentally, she told me AFTER the fact...)

Now of course she is an adult and perfectly capable of making these decisions. She has the financial means and she was very, very excited about the whole process. So about 90% of me says, hey, whatever works for them.

But the other 10%....she told me the trainer found her a "safe" horse -- which was I think a 6yo gelding who of course had to be put in full training immediately, yet still ended up breaking several of my friend's bones --and it aggravated me. Friend is a wonderful person, a little older and does NOT need to be getting serious injuries. For pete's sake, she doesn't even show, so a truly SAFE schoolmaster that could do a few upper level movements in lessons would be totally findable here in the US -- no need to fly over there and import a (young, green, fancy) horse for a rider of that level! Because I'm certain they ultimately bought that horse for the trainer, not my friend.

But, again, it's not my business. Just makes me sad.

[musical comedy]

Yeah this full training thing bugs me too, even though I was in it. I guess I've seen the light, or maybe I'm still in the dark. I do think that while someone is learning the basics of riding they should be under the supervision of a trainer. But after you get to a certain point, hopefully with the right horse you can work alone with just occasional lessons. Trainers, especially European trainers, feel that the way it works is an AA buys the horse and puts it in full training. The AA gets a couple lessons a week and the trainer rides the rest of the time. If they show, the trainer shows the horse at the higher level, and the AA gets to show the horse at TL. This happens a LOT, and apparently many AA's are just fine with it.

Even with my current horse, when I was taking lessons my trainer suggested to me twice "why don't you let my assistant school her for you a bit". No. Don't ask again. I don't buy horses and work my ass off for someone else to ride them. Besides, I honestly don't think it helps much unless you need a specialist to train something (like changes) that you are unable to do. In fact, my experience is that it works the opposite, if the body type of the trainer is very different than that of the AA. My friend for example, is petite like X-vet and her trainer was like 6'2" with long long legs and a strong upper body. How can that feel he same to the horse. Friend would say trainer can get beautiful tempis and I can't even get a single change. Stuff like that.

[Josette]

MC - What your described with the taller trainer vs petite rider schooling the horse is exactly what happened to me years ago with my PT/QH. Tall rider would swing his leg back and high for canter transitions - then I got on 5'2" and no way can I move my leg that far back and high. Besides I strongly dislike when I see riders do it (is it needed?). I ended the trainer riding and had to retrain my horse to my leg placement for transitions. Very frustrating redo.

[musical comedy]

MC - What your described with the taller trainer vs petite rider schooling the horse is exactly what happened to me years ago with my PT/QH. Tall rider would swing his leg back and high for canter transitions - then I got on 5'2" and no way can I move my leg that far back and high. Besides I strongly dislike when I see riders do it (is it needed?). I ended the trainer riding and had to retrain my horse to my leg placement for transitions. Very frustrating redo.

Exactly! When my mare first arrived, I had trouble with simple canter departs, even though the previous trainer was not larger than me. It's just that horses get trained and used to the aids of their regular rider, unorthodox as those aids might be. I know the theory is that a highly trained horse should be able to be ridden by anyone. Perhaps that is true, but how many of us have such a horse. With all my horses, they eventually get used to my aids, and I'm ok with that and don't want it changed.

[heddylamar]

I used to be good friends with a hunter/jumper trainer, helped her start/retrain many a horse, and she occasionally gave me a hand with my older mare. So when friends were looking for a move-up horse for their teen, I referred them to the trainer. Long story short, teen ended up over-horsed in a frightening crash, quit riding, trainer had a new ride (plus another horse she'd found for another client that was too much for that woman too) ... THEN she found an unsuitable horse for the-teen's younger sister. Fortunately, younger sib was a far braver and more skilled rider so she faired well, but I soured on the whole situation.

[Ryeissa]

oh I agree but it would be lovely to be able to afford a full time trainer,

I can see a huge benefit if it was the right fit of horse, trainer and rider. I have my horse in part time training and even when Im watching the session its so interesting.

The more I know, the more I want as many lessons as possible. 1-2x a week is great. I also have two trainers. Dressage is hard and I need all the help I can get

Some owners don't want to ride, and that is ok.

[Tanga]

Yeah. I think about this, and it's one of the many reasons I am not getting back into the business, no matter how much more qualified I am than 99.9% of the people around here. To be a real quality trainer for people, you have to work really hard and help them learn how to ride and train their own horse. People who do that don't make a lot of money and have to work really hard. The people who make money buy horses that make them look good for their clients. I get it, though. As a business, being a trainer can really suck.

And there are people who really don't want to ride much or do the work, so being part of the support process for a trainer makes them feel involved. That's cool. And there are people who can't really make horses themselves, so buy the accomplishments of others so they can be great. (CJ) I get that. A local trainer who I like had a horse that made GP, but didn't like it a lot. The last show I saw him at I was scribing and he was doing 4th level with someone who probably paid a lot to ride him, and he happily gave her the tempi changes and didn't work too hard.

I don't get it personally, and wouldn't feel any sense of accomplishment nor want someone to make and keep a horse going for me so I could ride the movements, but some people do. That is a lot of the business I see, at least around here.

[blob]

As a business, being a trainer can really suck.

This is why my trainer won't quit his day job. It's hard to do it right and make money. I think he also likes the fact that it is easy for him to walk away from situations that are not working out. I have a good friend who is a trainer and she has stuck around with bad situations for much too long because she could not afford to lose the income.


Also, i should say that I think there is nothing wrong with having a horse in full training or that is regularly ridden by a trainer. I think there is a lot of value in a trainer keeping a horse tuned up, in shape, or for a trainer being the one to teach a horse new things. And that's very different from a situation where the owner cannot actually handle the horse on their own.

[Ryeissa]

Why does this irk me big time? It's none of my business. It doesn't affect me. I guess I just hate to see people getting used. These people don't realize they are getting used though, so I guess it doesn't matter. As long as they are happy, right? Most recent one I saw the rider can't even get the horse on the bit. Not even a TL rider. Today I see trainer doing passage on the horse. He probably cost a fortune because he is young with a stellar show record. I can pretty much guarantee several of these horses I know about will get shown, and not by their owner. Well, the trainer will show high level and the student will show TL maybe.

Its not what would work for me, but in a sense this is good for the student. We (generally) lament the lack of school horses that show horses the ropes. It really might be ideal to have the horse already more advanced in a structured program to better prepare the rider to move up if this is what is best for the duo.
This board is very self sufficient, but many people don't have interest or time to ride 5-6x a week themselves.
showing can be uber stressful, at least it is for me and many of my friends. I had my trainer show my horse for a bit, who cares? it really helped. I liked playing groom and taking pictures, then when I was ready I took over.
If I paid 80K for a horse, I would likely have FT training as I would fear messing up. I don't think that is so unusual. Protect that level of investment.

[musical comedy]

When I was showing hunters, something my trainer said I've never forgotten. It was something like "horses have only so many jumps in them". What she meant was that it was not wise to over-school jumping or go in too many classes. Well, the same goes for dressage (imo). Each time you do high level movements (extensions, piaffe, passage) you put wear and tear on the horse. I don't care how well you ride. So, if an owner is not planning on moving on to riding and/or showing the stuff the trainer is having fun doing, they are risking their horse's future soundness.

In a strange way, I feel sometimes that the trainer ought to be paying the student for the privilege of riding/showing these wonderful horses instead of the other way around.

[Hot4Spots]

A woman who boarded at my old trainer's barn had a very nice draft cross (3/4 TB, 1/4 Shire). Didn't really show the draft much, looked and moved like a WB. BUT...he was "bigger" in front, and by age 13, though she had gotten her USDF bronze on him, his hocks were in pretty bad shape. She had been having them regularly injected, but they hadn't yet fused, so it was an on-going problem.

Then the area around the barn started to be developed. She panicked about how this would upset her horse, so she moved out. She rode in the evenings and on weekends, so no construction was happening at the times she rode, but, whatever.

So, she retired her horse and had budgeted some money to buy a new "this is the one" horse. She ended up hooked up with a new trainer who blew past her budget, talked her into mortgaging her home, and went to Europe and bought a VERY FANCY young horse.....that the owner cannot/is not permitted to ride. I just thought it was so sad. As OP said, not my circus, not my monkeys, but it just irked me no end. At the time, I had my old racebred Appy, who was a total doll though not the best dressage horse in the world (average mover, kinda a straight shoulder, but steady in the bridle and very obedient. Successful through 2nd level, perfect trail horse, anyone could ride disposition and attitude). I thought it was so sad that I was probably happier with my $2,200 horse than she was with her imported WB. I had run into her at a show, and admired the new horse, asked what level she was showing, and was told, wistfully, "Oh, no, I only ride him once in a while, in lessons. The trainer is showing him until he reaches GP, and then, maybe, I can show him." The horse was 5!

[Flight]

That is a shit situation for that lady Hot4spots. And mortgaging her house for something she's hardly riding. I couldn't do that.

[piedmontfields]

I think it's back to the very uneven education available--esp. in the US. When people come to dressage with a bit of money as adults but relatively little solid horse and training sense (like at least Pony Club C level sense---few people even have that)---they are a vulnerable target for less than ethical trainers/traders.

There are trainers who do not do this, but it can take work to find them. It is also challenging for trainers to have only clients who are willing to do the work necessary to achieve their goals.

I don't have a problem with folks who can afford it helping trainers by buying/supporting good horses. There are wealthy people who love to do this even without ever riding or just getting the horse home at the end of its long career for retirement. But if your own education is a priority and you wish to ride as part of that education, you need to make very different choices.

[kande50]

She ended up hooked up with a new trainer who blew past her budget, talked her into mortgaging her home, and went to Europe and bought a VERY FANCY young horse.....that the owner cannot/is not permitted to ride.

When I first started taking dressage lessons (90's) I met someone who had mortgaged her house to import a fancy dressage horse. The horse got to the barn and when he was turned out he fell and injured himself badly enough that he was put down. No insurance because the importer (BO) didn't insure, and the new owner didn't know she needed to. Sad for the poor woman stuck paying off a loan for a horse she no longer had, but a good lesson for everyone who might have been tempted.

And now I'm reading about an import who is stuck in quarantine because he didn't pass his glanders test. That story should probably be required reading for anyone on a limited budget who might be tempted to import.

[exvet]

I went to a schooling show this morning and was very happy with my two tests. A lady approached me after my two rides were done and first exclaimed on how 'scrumptious' my horse looks and how nicely paired we are. I was grateful for the compliments for sure. She then asked, "Is he always this perfect?!" to which I actually was taken a back as she recognized my hesitation and before I could answer she said, "I mean does he do everything so willingly and well behaved like trail ride, trailer, hang out etc?" To which I had to answer, 'Yes'. She then stated that she so wished she had one just like him. To which I responded that I was sorry but I was unfortunately no longer able to keep producing them as I had disbanded my breeding program a few years ago. I added that I too wished I could make at least one more. I then recognized that she had brought a lovely warmblood that her trainer was riding. The horse seemed very well balanced, quiet and a nice mover. The woman was not dressed to ride. Her trainer showed the horse in its third level tests. It was a bitter sweet moment for me and I believe for her as well.

[Chisamba]

Well Damon Hill is an example, the owner was paying Ingrid Klimke to ride him. Then they negotiated with Ingrids assistant, Helen Langehanenbaan ( sp) to ride him for free. Well then they decided she needed to pay for the right to ride him , she dropped the horse, and the daughter started riding him but he dropped out if the international scene immediately. So the moral of the story is maybe it takes top rider to ride a top horse.

[StraightForward]

I went to a schooling show this morning and was very happy with my two tests. A lady approached me after my two rides were done and first exclaimed on how 'scrumptious' my horse looks and how nicely paired we are. I was grateful for the compliments for sure. She then asked, "Is he always this perfect?!" to which I actually was taken a back as she recognized my hesitation and before I could answer she said, "I mean does he do everything so willingly and well behaved like trail ride, trailer, hang out etc?" To which I had to answer, 'Yes'. She then stated that she so wished she had one just like him. To which I responded that I was sorry but I was unfortunately no longer able to keep producing them as I had disbanded my breeding program a few years ago. I added that I too wished I could make at least one more. I then recognized that she had brought a lovely warmblood that her trainer was riding. The horse seemed very well balanced, quiet and a nice mover. The woman was not dressed to ride. Her trainer showed the horse in its third level tests. It was a bitter sweet moment for me and I believe for her as well.

I think Tesla will be rideable for me, but I won't lie; she can be quite a pain in the ass. I've warned her on more than one occasion that I could trade her in for a really nice quarter horse, and I'm only 51% joking. I think after this I'll go for one of the WB crosses instead of full WB although I'm sure there are lovely ones out there.

[piedmontfields]

Having ridden my very rideable yet modest Lusitano x (actually Lusitano x WB for WIW) today in a cold wind after a 20 F temp drop, I have to say that rideabilty is huge. So is the right match for horse and rider. Many amateurs would in fact find my dear of mare quite difficult---she is hot, she is quick and she is sensitive. Yet, she has a killer work ethic and a desire to work for her person---which makes her easy to me. In our workout today on soggy fields, she was begging me for me action---so I said (when we got to better footing), "How about some half step?" Her answer: Yes, ma'am , as many you want, ma'am. Rideabilty is HUGE!