Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Tsavo
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Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:49 am

The mare did really well during the PPE. Sound and healthy. A few issues...

On the fronts bilaterally, he writes,

"She toes in slightly at the fetlock and the cannon bone is offset laterally from the carpus. She has good range of motion in the fetlock and shoulder but a 10% decrease in end range of flexion of the carpus."

He told me the toeing in and offset might predispose her to arthritic changes in the fetlocks or pasterns but does not mean that she will develop joint pathology.

What causes a 10% decrease in end range of motion? What might that mean long term?

In summary he writes...

"[she] had a normal physical exam and was sound. She is a nice mover and has good feet. She should be able to go without shoes if not on rocky ground. Conformational faults are offset knees and mild “pigeon toes”. She did have similar restrictions in end range of motion in both knees but they were not painful to flexion and radiographed without abnormalities. She would ideally lose 75-100 lbs to be at an ideal body condition."

Slightly chubby. LOL

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:05 pm

I'm sure you have some good angles on second opinions, or know who to ask for them.

Glad the mare sounds so promising!

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musical comedy
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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby musical comedy » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:14 pm

You would do best to ask this question of another vet. Even getting an opinion from COTH would be good because more people over there post. Here you are only going to get a handful of responses.

Having done quite a few PPE's, we all know something can be found and it comes done to what we can live with. Anyone that has had "x issue" is going to have a negative opinion of that. What I mean is this. If someone has owned a horse that toes-in and had problems because of it, then they are going to tell you to pass on a pigeon toed horse. Or a person that has had bench knees and had problems will nix another with that fault. The opposite is true too. Someone with say, well my horse has XYZ fault and he went to FEI. Do you see my point?

I can only speak personally. I've had the same vet for 25 years, so I have some confidence in his view points. What another unknown vet might say, I don't know how much confidence I'd have. Meaning, I have no idea how good your PPE vet is.

I'll give you my personal experience. I had a TB with offset knees. She developed a couple splints when young. Other than that no front end lameness. She died of colic. I bought an expensive 1999 weanling who was premium at the KWPN keuring. Apparently her toe-in wasn't noticeable as a baby. As she grew and chest widened, the toe in did become very noticeable and she moved with a paddle. Does your mare paddle? I hate it and toe-in does predispose to stuff. The worst part for me is all the negative comments I'd get from people. "Oh my, she really toes in...blah blah". It would be a deal breaker for me now. That said, there is mild toeing in and there is extreme which my mare had.

Did you get stifle xrays? Medial? An absolute must imo.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Sue B » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:12 pm

It is "normal" for a wide-chested horse to toe-in a bit, just as a very narrow-chested horse will toe-out a bit. While I, personally, pass on crooked-legged horse, I have known quite a few who went on to higher level careers with no incident so there ya go. I just don't like the look of winging or paddling.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:12 pm

Thanks for these responses.

The mare does not paddle.

We have stifle rads. We have 48 rads. I thought he was going to shoot 24 and then he decided to do 4 more for knees after he saw the conformation. So I thought it would be 28. I think I may have misunderstood what he was saying but whatever they cost will be worth it.

I have several excellent photos of the legs that I am going to show my vets. I will post some later when I get home.

I am on the fence but will decide based on what my vet thinks of the rads and photos. This is the best horse I have found and is otherwise pretty good. Not sure I can do better on balance.

piedmontfields
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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:10 pm

You have plenty of good material for your vet. Good luck!

As you know, all horses are a risk and at risk, so we do the best we can with what we know and how we care for them.

Tsavo
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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:41 pm

mare.fronts.jpg
mare.fronts.jpg (39.13 KiB) Viewed 311 times

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:44 pm

The vet estimated her weight at 1600 pounds. LOL

She is 3/4 DWB, 1/4 Clyde. Would have preferred that 3/4 to be TB. If I buy her she is going on a diet. Double lol.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:22 pm

Apparently 60% of SWBs have bench knees. Hmmmm.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:45 am

She is schooling second and jumps a bit yet has never popped a splint and the vet said her legs were very clean. Hmmm.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:01 pm

Toe-in has a 50% prevalence in SWBs. Hmmmm.

Here is another one that surprised me... prevalence of navicular in Hanovarians - 21.7% Hmmmm.

Prevalence of sidebone in heavy draft horses - 95%. (Not) Hmmm.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a60c/7 ... 1567889374

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Chisamba
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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Chisamba » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:47 am

I have been lucky with those horses I had that were offset in the cannon bone and slightly toed in.

From the photo the mare has a fairly minor deviation in my opinion. I personally would not consider it severe enough to exclude her from consideration.

She might be inclined to pop a splint, which are unsightly but often do not interfere with useful riding.

What did your vet think?

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:06 pm

Thanks for that, Chisamba. I sent everything to my vet for comment.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:44 pm

There is only one photo, but the bench knee issue wouldn't bother me as much as the long pasterns and those feet...! Oy. Im surprised that the farrier and vet think those feet are ok. Maybe a side photo would look better but from the front...meh.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:56 am

So as I mentioned I sent everything to my vet and he responded about the mare...

"The conformational faults mentioned are very common in warm bloods and do not look or sound extreme."

I don't think this mare is a WB. She is a draft cross.

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Chisamba
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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:07 pm

Tsavo wrote:So as I mentioned I sent everything to my vet and he responded about the mare...

"The conformational faults mentioned are very common in warm bloods and do not look or sound extreme."

I don't think this mare is a WB. She is a draft cross.


Yes but she carries the warmblood genes and technically all draft crosses are warmbloods, just not all eligible for certain registries

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:12 pm

Yes I see that and I do refer to draft crosses as "poor man's WB" but I think people would be taken aback if this horse was advertised as a WB. She was advertised as some sort of section or something aligned with DWB. Had I not been previously told she was a 1/4 clyde I never would have looked at her.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:34 pm

sounds like your vet is not put off by anything in her conformation ?? or was there more?

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:28 pm

He was not concerned about that.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tanga » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:45 pm

That sounds like an exceptionally good vet report to me, and I think the one pictures looks like she has great legs. You don't say how old she is, but considering what she is doing, if she's been doing this and is fine, I think that's a great sign.

I've had horses with terrible reports that are fine. I've had horses that have issues that are fine with correct conditioning. My opinion is that unless there is an extreme issue, most things are not a big deal. The biggest issue is how well they have been properly conditioned in the past and what you will do in the future. I've had more than a few horses with issues and felt off that became super sound horses with good trail riding, turn out/pasture living, and being barefoot.

I would not have an issue with any report and just go on whether she's the horse for you.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:52 pm

Thanks Tanga for your input.

She is 5 and will be 6 next year. She is schooling second, jumps a bit, and still hasn't popped a splint so that is some evidence the bench knees are very mild. Her legs are completely clean despite the work.

I told the owner will will buy her. I have seen enough such that I am bagging the trip there to see her. She is in the middle of nowhere and it would be flights, a hotel and a car (~2 hours from the airport one way). If this mare was in VA she would be twice as expensive and would have sold a LOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

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Re: Need people with experience on orthopedic issue

Postby Sue B » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:09 pm

Wiat, WHAT?! You found a horse to buy? Congratulations Tsavo!


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