Shoeing is required for ringbone

Tsavo
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Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:42 am

My horse has high ringbone that is not symptomatic. Or I should say was not symptomatic UNTIL we pulled the shoes to grow his LF heel.

I have been working him in the arena the same 5 days I usually ride. I have him on a lunge line but have him on the track and I run next to him for most of the session.

As I have mentioned, he was at defcon 1 going left for some reason after we pulled he shoes. While I agree with Bats that these is at least partly getting used to no shoes, I think another reason is it irritates his ringbone! I was running next to him going left and he started out fine and then started to limp. Then he CONTINUED to limp at WALK! I had him back in the barn and standing for a minute while I recovered from shock. Then I walked him back to his pasture and he was not limping at walk.

I then start googling and note that these horse must be shod to help them. Barefoot is not an option. I am not going to work him until he gets shoes on. He was in pain. That is why he didn't want to go left. He humored me. I am crushed. I can't apologize enough to him. My poor boy. :cry: :cry:
Last edited by Tsavo on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

exvet
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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby exvet » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:16 am

Shoeing, done correctly, can serve a purpose despite all those who scream barefoot is for everyone, said the vet who doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground because all would have you believe that we know nothing about shoeing, biomechanics or nutrition. Glad your horse has someone who listens to what he is saying. Body language speaks volumes. Having said that some horse are better off barefoot; again, it's listening to what the horse is telling you in the end and making decisions based on that, not JUST the Internet, not JUST the 'experts', not JUST what is 'in' be it research or not. I hope your horse is back to his usual self in no time.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:05 pm

exvet wrote:Shoeing, done correctly, can serve a purpose despite all those who scream barefoot is for everyone, said the vet who doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground because all would have you believe that we know nothing about shoeing, biomechanics or nutrition. Glad your horse has someone who listens to what he is saying. Body language speaks volumes. Having said that some horse are better off barefoot; again, it's listening to what the horse is telling you in the end and making decisions based on that, not JUST the Internet, not JUST the 'experts', not JUST what is 'in' be it research or not. I hope your horse is back to his usual self in no time.


Thanks so much for this. You make some excellent points about listening to horses versus party lines.

While there are probably many horses now shod who could eventually go barefoot, that situation has been recklessly extrapolated by some to say that all horses can go barefoot. I had that in the back of my mind and thought I might leave the shoes off even after we regrow the heel. But that was just my ignorance of the situation.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:41 pm

There are so many factors involved in soundness and work and shoes and barefoot that it just cant be classified as 'all horses with ringbone need shoes' or 'no horse with ringbone needs shoes'. There is so much dogma and resistance on all sides of the discussion, so much head butting. Horses get stuck in the middle of the ring as the BOA and MYHORSENEEDSSHOES camps spar and argue. There is no way to say All or None. There are so many factors in play. The skill of the trimmer, the skill of the farrier, what the horse eats or doesn't eat, on and on and on the variables in each situation are going to influence the outcomes either shod or barefoot. The foot the horse has at the moment and the foot that is desired (in Tsavos case, a better heel) the daily living situation, the support care available, it all factors in.

That said, the horse in question could have any number of reasons for the defcon. Could be a bruise, a DFT issue, the thrush that has been discussed (don't know if the left foot has been a thrushy foot in the past), a shallow sole, some wall separation, could be a shoulder issue that contributes...maybe when the farrier removed the shoes he trimmed the sole and the horse needs more sole to be comfortable.... None of us can say without photos. And honestly without an MRI its impossible to blame the ringbone.

I have had and currently have horses with ringbone and they are sound barefoot. Lover (yes that's his reg KWPN name but his barn name is George >;->) was a giveaway due to dumping his rider and breaking her shoulder. He has ringbone on his right front, high and low. He is 25 now. He had athree degree pad on that foot as per the Foot Specialist vet and farrier team in the area. I pulled them. He is totally sound on all footing.

I have seen visible ringbone actually diminish after going barefoot.

Weltmann also has visible ringbone and is totally sound.

Im not a BOA. But I also know that more is possible that people might realize and that a balanced foot is key, whether barefoot or shod. I admit that I have had the luxury of time, being a full time horse girl and having direct care of my horses for most of my life (as in not having to rely on grooms or boarding...I am at the barn all day, I don't have another day job) which is impossible for many people. I also had a sister/daughter/student/friend, a vet, who seriously just pushed me in to the hoof world kicking and screaming. If these factors were/had not been in place I would not feel as I have learned to feel about feet and shoes. But I have learned that so many conceptions that we have/had about feet just aren't true, and that going barefoot successfully is not impossible or even that hard, and that many/most horses can benefit from going barefoot, even if just for a while, till they can grow a healthier foot. I see soooooooooo many leg and hoof issues that are related to an unbalanced foot, whether shod or unshod. I also see very expensively shod performance horses with deep sulcus cracks. I see lots of long toes and underrun heels.

Horses are a dynamic collection of systems. A healthy foot is part of that system. Ringbone can be a symptom of that system being out of balance.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:46 pm

I have a horse with some ringbone, she is definitely more comfortable barefoot, we had a very good farrier and vet both consult on shoeing and we did attempt to get her comfortable in shoes, but she was immediately more painful and did not become less painful over time so we pulled her shoes. After a few weeks she returned to being almost asymptomatic.

However i totally agree, observe, listen to the horse, and he or she will tell you what is most comfortable.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:16 pm

Chisamba wrote:I have a horse with some ringbone, she is definitely more comfortable barefoot, we had a very good farrier and vet both consult on shoeing and we did attempt to get her comfortable in shoes, but she was immediately more painful and did not become less painful over time so we pulled her shoes. After a few weeks she returned to being almost asymptomatic.

However i totally agree, observe, listen to the horse, and he or she will tell you what is most comfortable.


I have not seen a reputable site that doesn't mention shoes for ringbone. I think the brief dramatic lameness that disappeared in a few minutes is consistent with pain from the ringbone. What else could have caused that in your opinion? His reluctance to go left and his being sounds and then lame and then sound (at walk at least) points to an acute transient pain from the trotting.

I think the exact location and amount of ringbone matters.

By the way, if your horse was sound then why did the vet recommend shoes for ringbone? Based on my reading I think all vets will recommend shoes. My vet said my horse should go back into a particular type of shoe. I asked about keeping him barefoot but that is not an option.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby silk » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:34 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:I have seen visible ringbone actually diminish after going barefoot.
.


I've done this. Unfortunately did not trim that horse more than about 3 times due to location and owner finances (they were quite some distance from me) but the changes from just the few trims I did were incredible.

Abby Kogler wrote:Im not a BOA. But I also know that more is possible that people might realize and that a balanced foot is key, whether barefoot or shod. I admit that I have had the luxury of time, being a full time horse girl and having direct care of my horses for most of my life (as in not having to rely on grooms or boarding...I am at the barn all day, I don't have another day job) which is impossible for many people. I also had a sister/daughter/student/friend, a vet, who seriously just pushed me in to the hoof world kicking and screaming. If these factors were/had not been in place I would not feel as I have learned to feel about feet and shoes. But I have learned that so many conceptions that we have/had about feet just aren't true, and that going barefoot successfully is not impossible or even that hard, and that many/most horses can benefit from going barefoot, even if just for a while, till they can grow a healthier foot. I see soooooooooo many leg and hoof issues that are related to an unbalanced foot, whether shod or unshod. I also see very expensively shod performance horses with deep sulcus cracks. I see lots of long toes and underrun heels.

Horses are a dynamic collection of systems. A healthy foot is part of that system. Ringbone can be a symptom of that system being out of balance.


Abby, you have a wonderful point of view and a great way of writing it.

I think without specific bodywork/biomechanic influences and support I would have stopped in my barefoot tracks in the early days. I had a difficult horse to take bare. However, I have a whole raft of strategies available now that I did not know about then so these days, it would be much easier with the same horse/ hoof situation, and I believe my clients benefit from that.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby kande50 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:59 pm

I think it's unlikely that a horse can tell whether he can be sound barefoot until he's been barefoot for long enough to regrow his hoof capsule at least once, and maybe twice. And even then, nutrition and exercise make such a big difference to whether or not a horse can develop a good enough bare hoof that I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about whether a horse can go barefoot until after he's been barefoot for a year or two.

In the interim, hoof boots can accomplish just about anything a shoe can, but with the advantage of being able to put them on and take them off based upon what the horse needs from day to day.

The only reason I shoe any of my horses now is if I can't keep the boots on well enough to be able to do what I want to do with that particular horse.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:14 pm

If I can respect that you know if your horse needs shoes and you cannot respect that I know my horse does better without them, than I have no further interest in this conversation.

This horse had heel soreness. In exploring the cause for her pain the asymptomatic ring bone was discovered. As treatment options were tried, over the course of time, the vet recommended removing the shoes.

Conversation terminated.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:45 pm

I certainly was not questioning your assessment of your horse's situation.

It wasn't clear that you tried shoes for the heel issue, not the ringbone. It was the heel pain, not the ringbone that got worse in the shoes, yes? It sounded like you got the exact advise I heard on line about shoeing ringbone horses in a certain manner. The heel pain complicates the picture. That might require barefoot. You may be dealing with a balancing act between the heel pain and ringbone. Apparently I completely misunderstood your post. I apologize for misreading it.

My horse's symptoms are completely different it sounds like. My vet wants my horse in rockers. I have used them before and my horse liked them.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:19 pm

Tonite he is sound at walk and trot on a straight line. I was able to watch him cover a lot of ground as i called him from the gate. That lameness yesterday lasted a few minutes it seems despite being lame at walk initially. If that isn't tweaking the ringbone, what could it be?

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby angela9823 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:04 pm

I'm going to agree with others. My horse's xrays showed ringbone and "navicular" disease at six years old. I took her barefoot then and haven't looked back. She turned 22 this past May and is still going strong except blowing a massive abscess this year.

But I have to ask a question, why are you trying to grow heel on your horse? Are you talking heel wall or are you trying to build your heel into a healthier heel (thickness of heel bulb - lower heel wall)? If you try to grow heel wall without growing a healthy bulb and increase the integrity in the back of the hoof (thicker frogs etc), you are going to create an underrun heel situation which then causes more pain in the heel area which then causes unnatural forces on the overall leg/hoof/joints etc. The horse could certainly be experiencing pain from the ringbone are just because of unnatural forces. This doesn't have to be a result of "going barefoot" but instead the other changes you are asking the farrier to make. If your horse has thrush and you haven't fixed that, the hoof could get more movement now (heels work independently) and that could be causing pain, shift in weight, unnatural forces etc.

And no, my vet has never once recommended shoes for the ringbone my mare has.

Having said all the above, you have to do what you are comfortable doing with your horse. If you feel your horse would be sound in shoes, put them on. But please don't spout that horses with ring bone must have shoes. It just isn't true.

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Re: Shoeing is required for ringbone

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:14 pm

silk wrote:[
Abby, you have a wonderful point of view and a great way of writing it.

I think without specific bodywork/biomechanic influences and support I would have stopped in my barefoot tracks in the early days. I had a difficult horse to take bare. However, I have a whole raft of strategies available now that I did not know about then so these days, it would be much easier with the same horse/ hoof situation, and I believe my clients benefit from that.


Aw, thanks!

I always think of the blind men and the elephant parable. You cant fix things in a vacuum. Sure, doing body work will help. But if the rider is contributing to the issues then the problems will continue. Sure, you can fix the rider, but if the horse has movement patterns that are deleterious then the rider will always be fighting them. Sure, you can fix the feet, but if you don't address the horse/rider bodies then you are still going to have things going on.

That said, of the three factors that contribute to harmonious work with horses, feet might be the most important one. A horse forced to work on unbalanced feet (and I am NOT referring to the OP or making any assumptions regarding her horse or his feet) is a recipe for disaster. So many of the endless suspensory issues, tendon and ligament issues, training issues, back issues, SI issues can be traced back to hoof imbalance and foot pain issues. Add the type of work so many do and to me its a wonder *any* horse stays sound >;->

Horses feet are dynamic. I have had Weltmann for over two years now. He is a huge now 18 yr old US Hano who was shown on the line, showed to 4th, and when he was 9 or 10 was bilaterally nerved due to 'heel pain' or "navicular". He also has ringbone, had fasciotomies behind...the poor guy had been cobbled together for years. His feet were expensively shod by a popular high end farrier. They had long standing toe cracks and he had side clips. Because lots of front end movement is popular these days most of the elite farriers in the area go for that saddlebred looking foot, and Weltmann was no exception. I pulled his shoes. The toe cracks are gone, and while his ringbone is visible is does not bother him. As his feet continue to change and widen (he had very contracted overly long heels with deep deep sulcus cracks, deep collateral grooves) he will periodically go lame. It has happened twice in the time that I had him...there will be some big expansion of the heels, and he will be mildly lame. I pack him with Magic Cushion and wait and give him the recommended does of Equioxx, and it resolves. And his feet are getting so beautiful. His frogs have opened up and his bars are flattening and the cracks have been gone for a long time. The whole process would have gone faster but I was down with my tendon surgeries for so long that I couldn't do him regularly. We are back to normal now. He looks great. Well, he is a hairy muddy mess but he moves great.

My point is that there may be periods of unsoundness when barefoot or while growing a healthier foot. BUT there are periods of unsoundness with shoes when dealing with pathologies. Health can take time. Growing the heels out on the OPs horse and working toward a healthier hoof is important. Panicing over a transient issue is unnecessary and I wish she would give it time.

Tsavo wrote that her horse trotted and cantered to her in the pasture now that he was barefoot. He used to walk, she wrote. To me, that means *he feels better barefoot*. She loves him, she doesn't want him to be in pain, but I wish she could see the bigger picture of hoof health and how allowing his hoof capsule and tubules to grow in a more correct way will be *better* for his ringbone, rather than just going for the quick fix. I can promise that this will not be the end of this story.


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