George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

khall
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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:16 pm

They can't refute the message? Give me a break Tsavo, you have an agenda, you spin it to fit your agenda regardless of what others bring to the table. Did you not read the study I provided on acupuncture about how it helps with IVF? Irrefutable study showing qualitative results. Same with sleep apnea, same with IVDD in dogs where acupuncture helps, but on no your blogger spun it to fit his bias and you put it out there as hard core science. Laughable.

I also want to know how using alt methods is at war with science and how on earth you can relate that to Trump being elected. How is it that I using acupuncture and chiro elected Trump? Boggles my mind.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:20 pm

What is NIH and the vet med group missing that you see perfectly clearly? Are they too dumb or what?

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:22 pm

Science is a hard game. When something has been under study for decades and still the literature is a mess, that is a result in itself. Does it prove acupuncture doesn't work in some circumstance? No. Does is suggest it probably doesn't work under most circumstances? Yes

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Chancellor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 pm

Tsavo wrote:Science is a hard game. When something has been under study for decades and still the literature is a mess, that is a result in itself. Does it prove acupuncture doesn't work in some circumstance? No. Does is suggest it probably doesn't work under most circumstances? Yes


I would hardly call the literature a mess. Like anything else, look hard enough and you can find anything that states something doesn't work. I would guess that the large majority of literature says that acupuncture helps. It is a guess though and I haven't the time or inclination to do statistical analysis.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:36 pm

NIH and the vet folks have done the analysis. They say there is no good evidence it works apart from placebo.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 pm

Here is the statement of the AVMA...

Acupuncture specialty petition denied
​Posted May 11, 2016
AVMA leaders have denied a petition from an organization that wants to develop an acupuncture specialization.

Members of the AVMA Board of Directors in April voted down a petition from veterinarians with the American Academy of Veterinary Acupuncture to have the AVMA recognize the academy as a specialty organization. The American Board of Veterinary Specialties, which receives such petitions and advises the board, had recommended denying the petition after finding a lack of scientific basis for such a specialty.

Gaining AVMA recognition as a veterinary specialty organization involves representing a distinct field of veterinary medicine backed by scientific knowledge and practice and accepted by the profession and public, according to ABVS standards. Other requirements include showing that the specialty will improve veterinary medical services, having enough potential diplomates to run a governing body with a certification process, and establishing training and examination standards for the specialty’s diplomates.


What are they missing that so many people in this thread are not? What is the NIH missing that people here are not?

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:59 pm

Yes the vet folks (AVMA) did a summary and recommend the use of acupuncture for certain issues like IVDD in dogs:

"EAP was more effective than DSX for recovery of ambulation and improvement in neurologic deficits in dogs with long-standing severe deficits attributable to thoracolumbar IVDD."
from here: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/1 ... 36.11.1225

NIH: "What do we know about the effectiveness of acupuncture?
Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain."
from here: https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupunctur ... ction#hed3

Tsavo you are cherry picking to fit your bias and your summary "They say there is no good evidence it works apart from placebo" is incorrect.
BTW you still have not addressed the studies I cited on IVF and sleep apnea and acupuncture. Also not once have you addressed how difficult it is to do studies on acupuncture because of how it is done. The Huff Post piece I sited talked about this issue.

And you still do not think there is politics involved?

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:19 pm

khall wrote:And you still do not think there is politics involved?


What exactly do you mean by politics here? What faction wants to block naming of acupuncture as a specialty and for what political reason? Isn't that cutting off some of the revenue stream to block that?

In re the literature, I am not cherry-picking. I am not competent to assess the literature in this field because it isn't my field. The only cherry picking I am doing is the medical and vet med organizations that have looked at the issue and made a statement. If you can find an organization of that stature who claims acupuncture efficacy is supported by rigorous scientific study then I will accept that.

Continually, my claim that agencies who have looked at the literature and find it wanting gets morphed into I have a personal opinion and that it is I am against acupuncture and I am ignoring the literature that supports it. Do you see how the latter is not the former at all??

In science, you have to be careful of wording. My use of "woo woo" is not scientific language and I was not trying to use scientific language there. Elsewhere I do use scientific language... "medical and vet med organizations have looked at this literature and they do not find a good case for efficacy". Then, any number of people will come on here and swear UP AND DOWN I said "I know acupuncture doesn't work."

Do you see the problem with trying to discuss scientific matters on a lay forum? Skeptvet and Dr. Ramey get this stuff all the time and there it is more appropriate because they do have first hand knowledge of the literature and also produce it. Still lay people will challenge them on the basis of their feeling as opposed to an intimate knowledge of the literature and state of play. It is Skeptvet's and Dr. Ramey's field. They are not biased just because they are critical of the evidence case. They take the evidence case as it is. It is not my field. All I can do is relay what the experts say. And no matter how many times I say that this is not my field and I therefore can't have an independent opinion, there will still be people here claiming this is my opinion. It's breath taking.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:53 pm

Tsavo if you can read Skeptvet and not see the bias there (the IVDD is a good example) then you are blind.

No reason to continue any type of discussion with you, you have your bias and are sticking to it regardless of any scientific results that refute your claims. And yes you have claims when you summarize the "placebo effect"

No it is not Ramey's or Skeptvet's field, they are not acupuncturists but Western medicine vets with a bias against alt methods.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:18 pm

khall wrote:Tsavo if you can read Skeptvet and not see the bias there (the IVDD is a good example) then you are blind.


Is NIH biased? Is the AVMA biased?

Are all honestly skeptical people automatically biased??? Not a single person can be honestly skeptical without being labeled biased???

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:22 pm

khall wrote:And yes you have claims when you summarize the "placebo effect"


Once again, I didn't say that. I was R-E-P-E-A-T-I-N-G what NIH was surmising.

This is not my field.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:29 pm

Tsavo did you not see the quote from NIH that I have in one of my posts just above?


NIH: "What do we know about the effectiveness of acupuncture?
Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain."
from here: https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupunctur ... ction#hed3

and from JAVMA:
"EAP was more effective than DSX for recovery of ambulation and improvement in neurologic deficits in dogs with long-standing severe deficits attributable to thoracolumbar IVDD."
from here: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/1 ... 36.11.1225

Do you not read others posts and what they site? And really why do you care if some use chiro and acupuncture and believe that it helps both themselves and their animals. How can you correlate this with Trump being elected. You make no sense.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:33 pm

I have to leave for the gym. I will read this post including all the links when I get back and will respond to your question. :)

khall wrote:Tsavo did you not see the quote from NIH that I have in one of my posts just above?


NIH: "What do we know about the effectiveness of acupuncture?
Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain."
from here: https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupunctur ... ction#hed3

and from JAVMA:
"EAP was more effective than DSX for recovery of ambulation and improvement in neurologic deficits in dogs with long-standing severe deficits attributable to thoracolumbar IVDD."
from here: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/1 ... 36.11.1225

Do you not read others posts and what they site? And really why do you care if some use chiro and acupuncture and believe that it helps both themselves and their animals. How can you correlate this with Trump being elected. You make no sense.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:08 am

khall wrote:Tsavo did you not see the quote from NIH that I have in one of my posts just above?


NIH: "What do we know about the effectiveness of acupuncture?
Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain."
from here: https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupunctur ... ction#hed3


Page not found. The link appears to be truncated.

and from JAVMA:
"EAP was more effective than DSX for recovery of ambulation and improvement in neurologic deficits in dogs with long-standing severe deficits attributable to thoracolumbar IVDD."
from here: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/1 ... 36.11.1225


Page not found. The link appears to be truncated.

You can find plenty or poorly controlled studies that show it works. The point is that the results are all over the place. There is no consensus. People familiar with the literature say it is a mess. I haven't looked at the totality of his literature but given the size, it would take me at least a year to get anywhere up to speed. Base on published opinions from the Federal agencies and professional associations I mention, they are not convinced. I have to accept that because they know the literature and I don't.

Do you not read others posts and what they site? And really why do you care if some use chiro and acupuncture and believe that it helps both themselves and their animals. How can you correlate this with Trump being elected. You make no sense.


As far as I can tell, people are cherry picking individual articles that they think supports the efficacy of acupuncture. I am not sure those articles pass scrutiny. I am sure people who know about his area say the literature is not convincing.

The embrace of treatments that have no convincing evidence of efficacy is of a piece with the wider problem in the US that devalues science. Almost half the US populace thinks the earth is a few thousand years old. Forces in society are actively undermining science education. I think that ramifies to the situation with these alt med and alt vet med treatments. I think this war with science is "in the air" and has not only contributed to Trump's election but is actively being stoked by his administration.

Here is Dr. Ramey on how to read a scientific paper...

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

I think people would realize how weak some of the articles they post are if they went through this exercise. It is hard to design a tight study. Many articles are retracted. Many more should be.

I don't doubt people are trying to help their animals. What I doubt is that most of these alt vet med treatments work. The word you used was "believe" and that refers to a faith position. Belief is not useful. Only knowledge is. I don't believe anything. I accept facts and reject unproven things until they are proven. Then I accept them. I think the oral joint supplements market is the biggest scam in vet med. The only reason it exists is because people are unarmed in being able to interrogate the literature. If we have more Lameness locators and science education, I think that market would disappear. We have armies of lay people with all kinds of lasers and magnets massagers and chiros and other unproven modalities ripping off people who just want to help their horse. Despicable.

I actually don't think there is any intellectual space for alt vet ed...

Q: What do you call alt vet med that works?
A: Vet med.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:43 am

Here: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/1 ... 36.11.1225

again: https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupunctur ... ction#hed3

I look at results in any medicine, supplement etc that I pay for. I see the QOL improvement in my old dog with acupuncture, I have felt that adjustment of a rib that was out, much relief, I have felt my mare with DOJ go better after Legend injection, I have seen a mare with a stifle injury go sound with Adequan injections, I have felt my mare with bilateral OCD lesions go sound with giving her HA supplement. I open minded to try different injections, supplements and treatments (I tried nebulizing stem cells with Rip for NCS) to help my animals. I have also seen the limitations of veterinary medicine, no one has all the answers and the medical field changes as more is understood. I ALWAYS fall back on my own judgement when it comes to my animals.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:27 am



I can do no better than repeat points made by an expert that I posted upthread:

1. electroacupuncture is more akin to TENS than acupuncture. TENS works on a known modality. This paper is not an acupuncture paper at all. To quote the vet, "It would take a robust and repeatable superiority of treatment at traditional acupuncture points compared with locations selected according to the principles of TENS to convince me that this procedure has anything to do with acupuncture."
2. owner selection of treatment group, no blinding especially from a biased research group, partly prospective, partly retrospective.
3. populations in each study group were probably not random.
4. very small n.

look it is probably bad form for me to say this of a paper in another field but what the hell... I think the peer review should never have let this thru with the misleading title in re acupuncture given elecroacupuncture apparently has nothing to do with acupuncture sensu stricto and is probably just TENS with imaginary selection criteria for electrode locations.



I posted that link. Did you read that whole page? That is a masterpiece in hedging.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tuddy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:25 pm

This is absolutely amazing. I have eaten so much popcorn, I have a stomach ache.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Tsavo wrote:
khall wrote:And yes you have claims when you summarize the "placebo effect"


Once again, I didn't say that. I was R-E-P-E-A-T-I-N-G what NIH was surmising.

This is not my field.


Ok. Good. You admit that this is not your expertise. Science used to be mine. I am published in several peer reviewed, nationally and internationally respected journals and one book chapter. I don't believe anywhere it has been said that the "literature is a mess" regarding acupuncture.

According to that article, the number one reason for reading medical journals is to "impress others"? Really? I don't believe that for one second. I don't read articles to impress others since I am usually by myself reading them. And I read them to further my scientific education.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:38 pm

Chancellor wrote:Ok. Good. You admit that this is not your expertise. Science used to be mine. I am published in several peer reviewed, nationally and internationally respected journals and one book chapter. I don't believe anywhere it has been said that the "literature is a mess" regarding acupuncture.


Science is a broad field. I am in science but not in the field of vet med. How close is your field of science to vet med? There is very little overlap between various scientific fields. My degrees in my field still make me a lay person in vet med.

If the literature wasn't a hot mess, given the sheer size, we would have one of two situations... acupuncture has good evidence of efficacy or acupuncture has been disproven on first principles. Neither result is obtained. That means the vast literature is all over the place. Further, people who are familiar with it say has many many very questionable papers.

A shorthand way to relate all that is to say the literature is hot mess. People in science know what that means in my experience.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:46 pm

There will always be conflicting studies regarding these issues. Double blinds with horses are difficult. Any study with horses is challenged by virtue of genetics, past training practices, past care issues...its pretty impossible to run equine studies at the level of human studies.

Some of us are experienced enough to see a change/improvement in our horses. If I bathed in cat urine and my horse had a longer stride I would bath in cat urine. You can talk all day about 'caregiver placebo'. If my horse comes out after a session with a lower neck and a longer stride and then has a better canter or what have you, that is not caregiver placebo, Some of us can see that and are happy. You, with your limited knowledge of horses apparently are troubled by the fact that you cant see it. So rather than insult people who know more than you do and denigrate the experiences of people on the only forum you are still allowed on, why don't you start volunteering at the few USDF shows you have in your area? GEt out of your silly 'SCIENCE(tm)" bubble and quit your job and go be a groom for somebody for a year or ten, or go be a vet assistant, or a Steward. Dedicate your life to horses and their welfare like some of us have. And then get back to us about woowoo, vet med, alt med.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:01 pm

[quote="khall
Abby I need to come out for a visit and learn from you. My chiro/acupuncture vet also believes in Feldenkreis along with other alt methods.[/quote]

I would love that. I have Mary come to my little place for Feld clinics and would love to have you for one of those or just to hang out with me while I work.

My dream and it may become a reality sooner rather than later is to have a facility where people can come to learn some of these modalities. I would also incorporate Bertrand in some way as the legerete work fits in so well with the therapy work. Its a fun dream.

A neighbor behind me has a cute Airbnb in her barn, right across the brook from my house. You could stay there and walk across to my barn >;->

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:57 pm

I wrote a reply but then it went poof, was too busy watching the football game last night to address Tsavo.

Tsavo you have never addressed the issue of how difficult it is to conduct studies on acupuncture. This treatment/alt method is not like an injection or pill that is given. They have had to come up with fake acupuncture to even be able to conduct a study at all. I do believe that with the limitations that acupuncture poses no study would satisfy you.

Tsavo wrote: "misleading title in re acupuncture given elecroacupuncture apparently has nothing to do with acupuncture sensu stricto and is probably just TENS with imaginary selection criteria for electrode locations." your statement here shows your complete and total ignorance of acupuncture and EAP and the blog that you have quoted also shows the bias and ignorance of acupuncture of the blogger.

EAP is acupuncture, using the same acupuncture points as in treatment without electrical stimulation. Still using needles of varying lengths, unlike TENS unit which uses electrodes, still requiring training and knowledge of the practice to place the needles in appropriate points. My vet happens to use a laser on acupuncture points. She has done all on my old dog, from just needles to EAP to laser.

Abby I will keep in touch! I am still on the hunt for a trainer to work with consistently after Mark's death. I do ride with Jillian Kreinbring some and hope to ride with Stephanie Millham this year as well. I do love the in hand work that I learned from Mark that came down from NO.


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