George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

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George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:06 pm

For the folks who point to all kinds of alt med modalities that elite riders use... among elite riders, there is probably a better (inverse) correlation between amount of science training and use of alt vet med that better skill in riding and use of alt vet med.

“I don’t remember with de Nemethy, lame horses. I don’t remember with de Nemethy, vets around the clock. In the 50s and 60s I don’t remember missing horse shows because of veterinary problems. Yes, we had the great vet, Danny Marks at a Championship, but we didn’t have vets in residence, we didn’t have injections maintaining, maintaining, maintaining, maintaining. I personally have never used massage or acupunture – I’m not saying it’s wrong – but I exercise my body, and I think that’s how to deal with animals – to properly exercise their bodies on a daily basis. I have great friends who are vets, and I respect vets, but I think this obsession with vets, is preceded by incorrect riding.”


http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2018/0 ... d-present/

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Abby Kogler » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:15 pm

Um...do you see the last sentence?

"caused by INCORRECT RIDING"?

Nice try Tsavo. Embarassing though.

Its a very different day than the DeNemethy era. Much more money at stake, a gazillion more horse shows, much more travel, much bigger industries. More trainers, more money, more pressure, more horse sales, fewer people taking time...Many more people pushing horses. Fewer properties where horses can have down time in big fields. Every thing is different. It has nothing zero, zip, to do with your 'thesis'.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Sue B » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:58 pm

“What it has lost the most to me is time. We used to have time for our horse, we used to have time at home, at horse shows, which were great social gatherings. There isn’t now the time, and that colours everything that happens with a horse, and with a horse show. Time and space – my sport of jumping is taking the country to an arena, and you take away time and space and the space gets smaller and tighter and the time gets quicker, there isn’t time to manicure and manage natural fences. Natural fences present an unexpected problem to a horse that hasn’t been given time in his schooling to learn to deal with them. That’s our biggest enemy now, time and space.”


Way to pick and choose your quotes, tsavo. What about the above quote? Things now are not the same as they were then...no news in any of that, including your take on various horse care modalities. I have been a veterinarian for almost 30 years now, and what was "standard of care" and "accepted practice" when I graduated is not always the same as now. What we can treat animals for now is also not the same as then. So what. I don't get your point.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:07 pm

Sue B wrote:
“What it has lost the most to me is time. We used to have time for our horse, we used to have time at home, at horse shows, which were great social gatherings. There isn’t now the time, and that colours everything that happens with a horse, and with a horse show. Time and space – my sport of jumping is taking the country to an arena, and you take away time and space and the space gets smaller and tighter and the time gets quicker, there isn’t time to manicure and manage natural fences. Natural fences present an unexpected problem to a horse that hasn’t been given time in his schooling to learn to deal with them. That’s our biggest enemy now, time and space.”


Way to pick and choose your quotes, tsavo. What about the above quote? Things now are not the same as they were then...no news in any of that, including your take on various horse care modalities. I have been a veterinarian for almost 30 years now, and what was "standard of care" and "accepted practice" when I graduated is not always the same as now. What we can treat animals for now is also not the same as then. So what. I don't get your point.


The quote you selected is about what CAUSES horses to have problems now. I agree with him.

My quote was about a different issue... how riders TREAT problems. Now they go straight to woo woo which never used to be the case and doesn't help a damn bit as far as anyone can show. That is the point Morris was making and I agree with that also.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:09 pm

Sue B, I don't understand your comment about "picking and choosing". If I picked the passage you picked about causes, someone else would say I picked and chose that over the one about treatments. There is more than one point that can be contained in an article, yes? Morris is allowed to discuss both causes and treatments in the same interview, yes?
Last edited by Tsavo on Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:14 pm

Sue B, you are a vet. In your opinion, why did Morris never succumb to woo woo when other riders have? That is the relevant issue. Did I pick that issue out of several other possible issues? Yes. So what? You are free to pick another issue and discuss it in this thread. That would in no way negate the first issue as it is just another issue. That's how this works.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Moutaineer » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:38 am

Do you consider injections Woo woo? I would have thought they were the very opposite?

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:08 am

Moutaineer wrote:Do you consider injections Woo woo? I would have thought they were the very opposite?


It is my understanding that there is very little evidence for injections after the lidocaine wears off. In humans, this was found in one study to be true for conditions not including herniated discs...

Surg Neurol Int. 2015; 6(Suppl 4): S194–S235.
Published online 2015 May 7. doi: 10.4103/2152-7806.156598
PMCID: PMC4431057
Comparison of the efficacy of saline, local anesthetics, and steroids in epidural and facet joint injections for the management of spinal pain: A systematic review of randomized controlled trials
Laxmaiah Manchikanti,* Devi E. Nampiaparampil,1 Kavita N. Manchikanti,2 Frank J.E. Falco,3 Vijay Singh,4 Ramsin M. Benyamin,5 Alan D. Kaye,6 Nalini Sehgal,7 Amol Soin,8 Thomas T. Simopoulos,9 Sanjay Bakshi,10 Christopher G. Gharibo,11 Christopher J. Gilligan,12 and Joshua A. Hirsch, MD13
Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Go to:
Abstract
Background:
The efficacy of epidural and facet joint injections has been assessed utilizing multiple solutions including saline, local anesthetic, steroids, and others. The responses to these various solutions have been variable and have not been systematically assessed with long-term follow-ups.

Methods:
Randomized trials utilizing a true active control design were included. The primary outcome measure was pain relief and the secondary outcome measure was functional improvement. The quality of each individual article was assessed by Cochrane review criteria, as well as the criteria developed by the American Society of Interventional Pain Physicians (ASIPP) for assessing interventional techniques. An evidence analysis was conducted based on the qualitative level of evidence (Level I to IV).

Results:
A total of 31 trials met the inclusion criteria. There was Level I evidence that local anesthetic with steroids was effective in managing chronic spinal pain based on multiple high-quality randomized controlled trials. The evidence also showed that local anesthetic with steroids and local anesthetic alone were equally effective except in disc herniation, where the superiority of local anesthetic with steroids was demonstrated over local anesthetic alone.

Conclusion:
This systematic review showed equal efficacy for local anesthetic with steroids and local anesthetic alone in multiple spinal conditions except for disc herniation where the superiority of local anesthetic with steroids was seen over local anesthetic alone.


This research is really all over the place in humans. That means it is much worse than scattered for equines.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:11 am

The thing with the woo woo in the horse world is that treatment modalities that have little to no evidence of efficacy in humans don't suddenly and magically become effective in equines. An example is chiropractic (it works no better than massage for lower back pain in humans which is not to say horse massage has the demonstrated efficacy that human massage does). Another is acupuncture.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:29 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:Its a very different day than the DeNemethy era. Much more money at stake, a gazillion more horse shows, much more travel, much bigger industries. More trainers, more money, more pressure, more horse sales, fewer people taking time...Many more people pushing horses. Fewer properties where horses can have down time in big fields. Every thing is different. It has nothing zero, zip, to do with your 'thesis'.
Yes, all that. In addition though, I think the past is always remembered better than it was. Horses broke down then too, and their careers were much shorter. I remember when 10 was old for a hunter. In those days, proactive vet care wasn't popular and many things weren't even available. I did hunters in the 70's. The main reason a vet came to the barn was for shots and colic. Bute was used a lot in showing. I don't recall if it was legal to do or not, but I know it was done frequently. Also in hunter/jumper, so long as you could jump over the fence, it didn't matter if you were not 100% on the flat.

The reason there are vets coming to barns all the time now is the proactive treating. People with expensive horses don't wait until their horses are Grade 2 lame before they call in a vet. If there is some slight inflammation...yes....they will inject the joint until the inflammation quiets down and rest the horse a bit.

Tsavo, since you value what George has to say, you should know that he recommended Legend. For several years, there was a one page Legend ad in various horse mags with his picture and his comments favoring it. Bayer still includes his comments in their Legend patient information insert.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:01 am

musical comedy wrote:Tsavo, since you value what George has to say, you should know that he recommended Legend. For several years, there was a one page Legend ad in various horse mags with his picture and his comments favoring it. Bayer still includes his comments in their Legend patient information insert.


Well that's embarrassing for him. It is impossible for Legend to be effective based on first principles.

This is good evidence that absent something like the Lameness Locator, people are claiming a lot of things that are probably imaginary. Also, every top rider has his price.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:57 am

Tsavo wrote:This is good evidence that absent something like the Lameness Locator, people are claiming a lot of things that are probably imaginary. Also, every top rider has his price.
Yes and Yes. There are some things, like joint injections, that the change is not imaginary.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:00 am

Some of the success attributed to some of these treatment modalities could be due to time alone a la pin firing. That is hard to rule out.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:49 am

Tsavo I have no idea where you get your idea that there is no scientific evidence that acupuncture (or woo woo as you put it) has not been proven to be effective in veterinary practice.

https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/ ... ogs-alive/

I want to highlight this quote from the article (EA is electroacupuncture):
"They found EA alone or in combination with surgery to be more effective than surgery alone in improving neurologic outcomes."

I use a holistic vet to help my old big dog with his what we suspect is spinal stenosis. My vet uses laser on acupuncture points to stimulate his spinal cord and keep his function as good as it can be for a 13 yr old 90 lb + dog. I wish I had access to a water treadmill for him, but nothing close to us.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:03 am

Acupuncture Fails to Qualify as a Specialty Area in Veterinary Medicine due to Lack of Adequate Scientific Evidence
Posted on May 15, 2016 by skeptvet

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2016/05/acupun ... -evidence/

---------------

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/acupuncture/

---------------

Caregiver placebo effect
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-the ... r-animals/

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:26 am

http://people.tamu.edu/~e-tebeaux/ode/t ... ncture.pdf

From the above article: The NIH and WHO are not the only professional, independent medical experts that have analyzed acupuncture and concluded that it is an effective and valid treatment for specific disorders. In 2007, the American Pain Society and the American College of Physicians issued joint clinical practice guidelines for diagnosis and treatment of low back pain.51 These stated that, “For patients who do not improve with self-care options, clinicians should consider the addition of non- pharmacologic therapy with proven benefits,” and went on to recommend acupuncture for low back pain, especially when pain is subacute or chronic.
In 1996, the AVMA stated in their guidelines on alternative therapies that, “V eterinary acupuncture and acutherapy are now considered an integral part of veterinary medicine” and the annual AVMA conventions often include lectures on acupuncture.52 The latest A VMA Guidelines for Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine (approved in 2001, revised in 2007) simply states that, “Recommendations for effective and safe care should be based on available scientific knowledge,” and that, “Veterinarians should ensure that they have the requisite skills and knowledge for any treatment modality they may consider using.”53

"The dictionary definition of “valid” is: “Well- grounded or justifiable: being at once relevant and meaningful,” and “appropriate to the end in view: effective.”68 A valid treatment in veterinary medicine should have scientifically-proven efficacy and also be safe and cost-effective. The scientific research studies described in this review demonstrate that acupuncture has significant efficacy in a wide variety of diseases, including those conditions for which there is no effective conventional treatment. Acupuncture has been proven to be a safe therapy, with an extremely low incidence of side effects and adverse events, especially when administered by a veterinarian with specialized acupuncture training.69"

"From a review of veterinary school websites, it was found that at least 17 of the 31 AVMA- accredited veterinary schools in the US (54%) have veterinarians certified in or with an interest in acupuncture as faculty members, or offer acupuncture to their clients through referral"

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:33 am

https://www.avma.org/News/PressRoom/Pag ... lease.aspx

If you are suggesting I am seeing a placebo effect with my dog, I would heartily disagree. He went from knuckling over with his rear feet and swaying at times to much more steady and I have not seen him knuckle since beginning laser treatment. He is not "fixed" by any means nor will this "fix" him but he is much better than just a few months ago.
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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:37 am

Here is an article on electroacupunture for IVDD in dogs...

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/06/javma- ... -for-ivdd/

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:40 am

This is a BLOG not an article. This blogger is biased and not worth reading.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:48 am

Skeptvet is talking about what the vet med societies SAY about acupuncture. He isn't just spouting his opinion. He is reporting on a decision the AVMA made following a recommendation by the ABVS. Emphasis mine

Given this position, I agree with the recent decision of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA), following the recommendation of the American Board of Veterinary Specialties (ABVS), to deny a petition by an association of acupuncturists, dominated by the TCVM approach, to certify acupuncture as a legitimate medical specialty in veterinary medicine. Such certification requires that the area designated as a specialty be a legitimate, scientific discipline, not simply that it be a complex collection of beliefs and practices accepted by adherents regardless of the scientific evidence. Homeopathy is not a medical specialty any more than shamanism or ritual sacrifice to Apollo are medical specialties, because it has failed to prove it can or does work through scientific testing. While some non-TCVM approaches to acupuncture are more plausible and compatible with science than homeopathy or TCVM, even these approaches have failed to generate the kind of robust, consistent body of positive research evidence needed to justify creating an entire medical specialty within the veterinary profession.

In addition, any specialty in acupuncture would almost certainly include the majority of veterinary acupuncturists who practice faith-based, TCVM acupuncture. This would mislead animal owners into believing that the body of knowledge mastered by these practitioners was scientifically valid and equivalent to that mastered by specialists in cardiology, internal medicine, oncology, and other recognized specialties. This is clearly untrue, and it is encouraging that even such a political organization as the AVMA, which has refused to condemn homeopathy in the past despite acknowledging it is ineffective.

Of course, this decision doesn’t prevent anyone from offering acupuncture treatment of any kind. It simply makes clear that acupuncture advocates have not been able to generate reasonable scientific proof for their claims despite decades of trying. The decision appropriately challenges the trend towards integrating alternative therapies into veterinary practice even when there is not good evidence for their safety or efficacy.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:30 am

This is his summarization of this decision. Again he is biased and it shows in his blog which is not an article. I cannot find anywhere other than skepvet that this decision was made. I will ask my vet, but I do seem to remember her discussing this issue and talking about the politics behind it.

BTW what do you think of WHO and NIH "have analyzed acupuncture and concluded that it is an effective and valid treatment for specific disorders." They are not bloggers spinning for their own agenda but looking at is scientifically and with objectivity and finding it a valid treatment.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:44 am

khall wrote:BTW what do you think of WHO and NIH "have analyzed acupuncture and concluded that it is an effective and valid treatment for specific disorders." They are not bloggers spinning for their own agenda but looking at is scientifically and with objectivity and finding it a valid treatment.


I assume that refers to the placebo effect.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:51 am

I would not jump to such conclusions, your bias is showing:

https://www.evidencebasedacupuncture.or ... -position/

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:09 am

If there is good evidence then why did the vet med folks reject it? What are they missing?

The acupuncture literature is a train wreck apparently.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/an-ind ... e-studies/

There are now thousands of acupuncture studies looking at every indication you can imagine (which stretches credulity that there is any common underlying mechanism). We are well past the time for preliminary studies. Despite thousands of studies, there isn’t a single indication for which real acupuncture has been shown to work to a high degree of confidence. At this point I would say that acupuncture should be abandoned as a scientific concept. It is a failed hypothesis that has added no real knowledge to our understanding of health and disease.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:09 am

khall wrote:I would not jump to such conclusions, your bias is showing:


Yes. I am biased towards evidence.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:15 am

Here's what NIH/NCCIH says about acupuncture effectiveness...

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupunctur ... ction#hed1

What the Science Says About the Effectiveness of Acupuncture

Results from a number of studies suggest that acupuncture may help ease types of pain that are often chronic such as low-back pain, neck pain, and osteoarthritis/knee pain. It also may help reduce the frequency of tension headaches and prevent migraine headaches. Therefore, acupuncture appears to be a reasonable option for people with chronic pain to consider. However, clinical practice guidelines are inconsistent in recommendations about acupuncture.

The effects of acupuncture on the brain and body and how best to measure them are only beginning to be understood. Current evidence suggests that many factors—like expectation and belief—that are unrelated to acupuncture needling may play important roles in the beneficial effects of acupuncture on pain.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:56 am

Tsavo then please tell me how my old dog who was knuckling over frequently before acupuncture/laser to acupuncture points now has not knuckled over in a couple of months. His strength and proprioception has been increased with just woo woo treatment, nothing else added. I was to the point I was thinking I would have to euthanize him, especially when he came swaying in to eat almost falling down. Now he is feeling good enough to jump off the top step of our back porch sometimes.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:08 am



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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:19 pm

pt to study more sceince-based formed of acupuncture but they are the small mnority.
khall wrote:Tsavo then please tell me how my old dog who was knuckling over frequently before acupuncture/laser to acupuncture points now has not knuckled over in a couple of months. His strength and proprioception has been increased with just woo woo treatment, nothing else added. I was to the point I was thinking I would have to euthanize him, especially when he came swaying in to eat almost falling down. Now he is feeling good enough to jump off the top step of our back porch sometimes.


If you truly changed absolutely nothing else about his management then my best guess is that the condition waxes and wanes on its own or there is something else going that contributes to the symptoms on that remitted over that time. Was it truly nothing else at all changed in his management? How about season?

Look at that article you posted that was published in The American Association of Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine. Ask yourself why it couldn't have been published in a top shelf vet med journal. Then consider why the AVMA followed the ABVS's recommendation to deny acupuncture as a legitimate specialty. It is because it is dominated by the TCVM approach which is known to be faith-based and imaginary like homeopathy. Apparently there are a few acupuncture types who reject TCVN and attempt to be evidence-based but they are screwed in terms of gaining credibility because of the traditional types poisoning the science well.

Acupuncture has been around a while and yet there is still no large trove of well designed studies that support its efficacy beyond placebo. That's a result in itself.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Chancellor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:42 pm

Tsavo,
If you don't believe in this type of veterinary practice, then don't use it. What do you care if other people "waste" their money on the alternative medicine?

I have used acupuncture on myself, my horses and my dogs. It worked wonders for all of them. Was there placebo effect? I don't think animals are susceptible to placebo effect. Anyway, I saw improvement.
If you don't like it, don't use it. But you would be better served arguing your point from a scientific point of view. There have been plenty of studies done on acupuncture. It works. Putting some bloggers experiences down as "evidence" does nothing to help your point of view. I can set up a blog today and write that the Earth is flat and the sky is actually yellow not blue. Doesn't make it true.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:55 pm

Chancellor wrote:Tsavo,
If you don't believe in this type of veterinary practice, then don't use it. What do you care if other people "waste" their money on the alternative medicine?
Does this translate into you feeling like she shouldn't discuss her view of it here?

I'm not much into the woo-woo either. but I've tried some of it on myself and my animals and I'm open minded. Putting up links with information can be good so long as we look at the author and decide if that source is reliable.

Over the past year, I have researched a lot of human health topics and read a lot of 'scholarly' articles and found that there are various opinions on just about everything. If you want to point to some source to support your thinking, it's out there somewhere. There's a lot of plagerism too. Some sources (vets even) copy information from elsewhere and put it in their own words without referencing their source. That ends up with a lot of sources with the same information leading one to believe it is true, when it only came from one source.

All that said, it is really difficult sometimes to know for certain that some treatment worked because some ailments often do wax and wane.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:01 pm

Well put, MC.

It's good to be open-minded. There are only a few things that we can dismiss on first principles, the poster child of this being homeopathy. The rest we must remain open-minded.

Claims that I am using that vet's blog just to put his opinion out there are just off base and not following along. I posted that to relay the FACT that the vet med people rejected acupuncture as a board specialty. That either is true or false. It is true. I don't know if people are just not willing to follow along or are just not able to handle the complexity of this material presentation.

It is how we can end up with a Trump.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:26 pm

Tsavo you can quit being nasty, BTW I did not vote for Trump in any way shape or form and I am embarrassed that he is our president.

The blog is obviously biased against acupuncture, I automatically dismiss such bias "reporting" because of the spin he puts on it. It was my understanding there was much politics involved in the decision. I do not know of the whole internal process that went on, but knowing such boards I can imagine what went into that decision.

As for my big dog, the symptoms started late summer early fall with the worst being in September when he was swaying. We started treatment with acupuncture and nothing else was added, now in winter (typically a difficult time with dogs showing issues with arthritis) he is much stronger, has not knuckled over in the last couple of months can move WTC. I have not added in any PT because we do not have access to such modalities locally for a dog his size. So yes seasons have changed but for the worst with a dog showing issues with arthritis, which is what we speculate with him.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:27 pm

I am not cherry picking sources to support my thinking. I am laying out what vet med societies DO and SAY, what Government Agencies like NIH SAY, why they say these things, what the state of the literature is, etc.

None of this is my opinion. This is not my field. Therefore I can have no independent opinion. I have to rely on the people who study these things to be best informed. I then post THEIR comments and actions.

Unless someone here has rigorously studied acupuncture efficacy, they can have no informed independent opinion either.

I am not sure why this needs to be spelled out.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:29 pm

khall, how do you know it is politics and not the train wreck of the literature? Nobody needs to resort to politics when you have that literature.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:00 pm

Khall, why did you choose acupuncture for your dog rather than western medicine?

I have read on the horse forums several people that call out the chiro or some body worker before they call a vet. That is something I don't understand. And then when they say "my horse had a rib out" etc., I do :roll: . I wonder what happened to the old master's horses when they had a rib out.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:25 pm

If 'discussing points of view' is just that, great. But there is a history of Tsavo not wanting to 'discuss', but insult, browbeat, harangue, and sling religion and politics in to every discussion about alt med. She asked Chancellor to make a special topic section, remember? Something like Real Med and the Alt med.

Those of us who have worked with horses for 50 years, at barns, with and for vets, at rescues, for professionals and have been professionals, have seen a lot of things come and go. We have seen what works and what doesn't. For some reason, that seems to trouble Tsavo and she has a need to denigrate, dismiss, and insult people with more knowledge and experience than she has. One would think that a 'scientist' would not be so fluid in her requirements for 'proof' but she has beaten this horse here, on COTH, and the old UDBB, on rec eq, and countless other fora for at least 14 years. I remember her dismissing Gerd Heuschman because he 'wasn't an elite dressage rider' (as if WTF that mattered?!) but now George Morris is the go to guy for her because of one statement.

I know quite a few 'elite' riders and I spend a lot of time in CDI barn aisles. The grooms and riders and owners are not stupid. They are wealthy, but they don't burn money. These riders know that their horses perform better after treatments of whatever. Tsavo could get out of her bubble and wolunteer at USDF shows and get to know some grooms or assistants. But no, she would rather insult people with real experience with performance horses.

I drove down to Del Mar yesterday and did a long session on one of Jeremy Stienbergs horses, Augie. She has had an unidentifiable mild on off lameness. Rads, nuclear scan, flexions etc all normal. Waiting on MRI results. I used my Centurion blanket, my RevitaVet, my laser, and then Feld and massage work. She was terribly tight in her right shoulder, knots at her left TMJ, hamstrings tight, lots of small and large issues. At the end of our session (about 2 hours) she was longer in the neck, more sloped in the shoulder, back soft, abs soft, hamstrings soft, and she walked out of the xties sound, swinging, loopy.

So. When I see a horse that is lame and sore, and then I use/do something to that horse, and they are no longer sore, I seriously DO NOT CARE if there are double blinds. I promise you that if Jeremy rides Augie today and she is improved, he will NOT CARE that some single owning horse owner in Raleigh NC is going to tell him that he is an ignorant woowoo. What we CARE about is that our horses MOVE BETTER, FEEL BETTER, and WORK BETTER. If TSavo doesn't care about that or is too ignorant to see or care when a horse MOVES BETTER after some alt med, that's great. But her endless need to denigrate, 'prove', insult, and dismiss the experiences of those with more horses, more animals, more background, more knowledge, and more experience gets so old.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:29 pm

musical comedy wrote:Khall, why did you choose acupuncture for your dog rather than western medicine?

I have read on the horse forums several people that call out the chiro or some body worker before they call a vet. That is something I don't understand. And then when they say "my horse had a rib out" etc., I do :roll: . I wonder what happened to the old master's horses when they had a rib out.


The only chiros I have ever used *were* vets who had done the training. Chiro is not a go to thing for me, neither is acupuncture. I think that those approaches treat symptoms and I would rather go to causes ie imbalanced feet, work/training issues, saddle or tack issues. I find that the therapy products I use help with inflammation/soreness/tightness and then the body work (deep tissue, myofascial, Feld, Masterson, what have you) has a longer lasting effect particularly if the causes are addressed.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Chancellor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:45 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Chancellor wrote:Tsavo,
If you don't believe in this type of veterinary practice, then don't use it. What do you care if other people "waste" their money on the alternative medicine?
Does this translate into you feeling like she shouldn't discuss her view of it here?

I'm not much into the woo-woo either. but I've tried some of it on myself and my animals and I'm open minded. Putting up links with information can be good so long as we look at the author and decide if that source is reliable.

Over the past year, I have researched a lot of human health topics and read a lot of 'scholarly' articles and found that there are various opinions on just about everything. If you want to point to some source to support your thinking, it's out there somewhere. There's a lot of plagerism too. Some sources (vets even) copy information from elsewhere and put it in their own words without referencing their source. That ends up with a lot of sources with the same information leading one to believe it is true, when it only came from one source.

All that said, it is really difficult sometimes to know for certain that some treatment worked because some ailments often do wax and wane.


She is welcome to discuss it here...if discussion is what is wanted. But in my experience, she posts inflammatory subjects like this with her opinions backed up by (in this case) blogs and not scientific proof. And then wonders why people don't agree with her.

Also, calling something "woo woo" is sort of inflammatory isn't it? Call it alternative. Call it Eastern Medicine.
Saying that vets plagiarize is also pretty inflammatory.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:41 pm

Chancellor wrote:She is welcome to discuss it here...if discussion is what is wanted. But in my experience, she posts inflammatory subjects like this with her opinions backed up by (in this case) blogs and not scientific proof. And then wonders why people don't agree with her.

Also, calling something "woo woo" is sort of inflammatory isn't it? Call it alternative. Call it Eastern Medicine.
Saying that vets plagiarize is also pretty inflammatory.
Are inflammatory subjects off limits here. Not being snarky; truly want to know. Since it seems a few here have a history with Tsavo's posting style, why do (g) you read it or reply to it? The political forum is inflammatory to me as a conservative, so I just don't get involved in the discussions. Best to bypass threads and posts that annoy you if you can resist the temptation.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tuddy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:53 pm

Chancellor wrote:Also, calling something "woo woo" is sort of inflammatory isn't it? Call it alternative. Call it Eastern Medicine.


Agree... just because you might think it is airey fairy, that doesn't mean you can't respect it for what it is. You may not agree with it, but name-calling it shows lack of class. If you want others to respect your science based, western medicine, then do the same by calling it holistic or alternative. Please.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Chancellor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:59 pm

Inflammatory subjects are fine. I don't care.

But saying something like "Acupuncture doesn't work. Any of you idiots want to tell me why you stupidly think it does?" is inflammatory. It does not inspire debate or discussion. It is just insulting and inflammatory.

Now, if it were stated as such "I don't think acupuncture works and I don't understand why anyone would use it." invites discussion. But only if you really want to know why someone uses it. If you are just getting people to tell you so you can go back to "why are you idiots using it" doesn't help.

I am a conservative and I can co-exist with the political forum just fine.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby khall » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:05 pm

musical comedy wrote:Khall, why did you choose acupuncture for your dog rather than western medicine?

I have read on the horse forums several people that call out the chiro or some body worker before they call a vet. That is something I don't understand. And then when they say "my horse had a rib out" etc., I do :roll: . I wonder what happened to the old master's horses when they had a rib out.


MC because my dog was already being treated by Western meds and they were not helping. He has been on pain meds (meloxicam) for years for another issue (L elbow, arthritis and previous fracture). I have no intention on doing any extreme intervention with a 13 yr old 90+ lb dog (surgery) who has issues already. I am open minded about acupuncture and chiro, I have had it done on myself and felt the benefits so why would I not use it for my old dog? Especially when it is neuro related?

As for having a "rib out" MC have you ever had a stabbing pain in your back where you could not take a deep breath and the pain was just nagging? Then you finally force the breath and feel a pop and no more pain. That is having a rib out. It hurts, I am sure it hurts for the horses too (in fact my horse protested mightily, tried to kick the vet when she was addressing his ribs that were out because of his wild shenanigans on line) I have also had my horse vet pop my rib back in for instant relief. I have no idea how sound and pain free the old masters horses were.

Abby I need to come out for a visit and learn from you. My chiro/acupuncture vet also believes in Feldenkreis along with other alt methods.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:45 pm

My personal experience with acupuncture was very positive. Some years ago, I was in a car accident (actually, 2 in a row, 2 weeks apart, where someone slammed into the back of my car. I was beginning to feel cursed.) As you can imagine, I ended up with significant pain and numbness across the top of my shoulders and in my neck.

I had a lot of tests of varying degrees of invasiveness by a variety of western medical specialists. For months, I did physio, I took painkillers and muscle relaxers. Nothing really helped. I had knots in the muscles and nerves across my shoulders that nothing seemed to be able to unpack.

My doctor actually sent me to an acupuncturist (who turned out to be the most non woo woo person you've ever seen in your life. A chain-smoking Vietnam vet who had learned his craft while out there.) I was skeptical, but so miserable at that point I was willing to try anything, and what could it hurt?

That first visit, he stuck his needles in my knots, there were popping sensations, and I had immediate relief. I had a couple of follow up visits over the course of the next two weeks, and the issue was resolved, and has never returned.

Do I believe it can cure cancer? No, of course not. But for addressing muscular and pain issues, I actually do know, from personal experience, it's a modality that can work. And if you've ever had arthritis, you know that many of the bodily aches and pains that result from it are due to doing things awkwardly in order to avoid using the arthritic joint, and therefore causing tension, imbalances and muscular pain that can be at least as disabling than the original joint issue.

Have you ever tried it, Tsavo? It's actually a really nice thing to do for a horse that is moving unevenly because of arthritic changes.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby DJR » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:07 pm

I have been trained in both human & veterinary acupuncture (entirely separate courses). Both used evidence-based approaches, and also "traditional" chinese acupuncture. There was overlap between the two. There are published trials compared acupuncture to other more western modalities for a variety of conditions, with acupuncture showing significant improvement for conditions like chronic pain, etc. It doesn't cure cancer or anything like that, but it has a definite place in a multi-modal approach to things like chronic pain as well as a few other conditions.

I don't practice acupuncture much because I barely have time to manage my time with western medicine (in my human practice). And because, here in Canada, the patient has to pay out of pocket for acupuncture treatments so I chose not to complicate things for myself with having to charge for it. I use it rarely for things like managing myofascial tender points, neck pain, headaches. In my anecdotal experience, patients find it helps (it's rare that it doesn't help) when I use it for select conditions. I remember offering it a few years ago to a patient with quite bad neck stiffness/pain that I had diagnosed as being muscular. She'd been plagued with it for many weeks and it seemed to be getting worse. I put in 5 needles in a neuroanatomic pattern consistent with her pain location. She was terrified of needles and incredibly skeptical about acupuncture, but reluctantly agreed to it because her neck hurt so much and nothing else seemed to help. I then didn't see her for another 4 mo so figured it hadn't worked. When I saw her again (for another reason) she told me that the pain improved later that day and never returned.

I have used it selectively in a few wildlife cases and it "seemed" to help in every case, but that's very hard to judge given that the animal can't say "I feel better", we can only infer based on their behavior & responses before & after.
formerly known as "Deanna" on UDBB -- and prior to that, as "DJD".

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:12 pm

Chancellor wrote:And then wonders why people don't agree with her.


I don't wonder about this. It is just another front in the war on science that got Trump elected.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:28 pm

Tsavo wrote:
Chancellor wrote:And then wonders why people don't agree with her.


I don't wonder about this. It is just another front in the war on science that got Trump elected.



It's this kind of BS that invalidates your "discussion" claims. I'm out.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby kande50 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:33 pm

Tsavo wrote:Now they go straight to woo woo which never used to be the case and doesn't help a damn bit as far as anyone can show. That is the point Morris was making and I agree with that also.


*Some* may go straight to woo woo, but they may be the ones who wouldn't have called the vet, anyway? What more, IMO, do, is tack woo woo onto medical treatment.

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Re: George Morris weighs in on alt vet med, inter alia

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:06 pm

How is this back and forth any different that one between a science- and evidence-based person and a flat-earther or a young earther or an anti-vax person or any of the many flavors of pseudoscience?

Vet med societies and vet med board reviews and the NIH and any other groups who have looked at the literature are have come to the same conclusion that the literature does not support the claims of efficacy for acupuncture.

Because people don't like that message, because they have their anecdotes (which I don't doubt by the way) they shoot the messenger. That is not reasonable or rational. I'll state this again because it might help... I have no dog in this fight because I am not in this field. Please take that on board. My simply stating what experts say is just me stating what experts say. Don't like that? Take issue with the experts, not me.

People here are equating my mentioning that experts have concluded there is no convincing evidence with my having an independent opinion on this. Why can't I relate what vet med boards say and what NIH says without being attacked? There is a reason people here will focus on the messenger rather than the message... they can't refute the message. That is the tactic of people at war with science. I am not trying to be rude. I am telling you if you are not at war with science to address the literature problems, not me.


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