Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

piedmontfields
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Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:11 pm

This is a genuine question :) . Many of you have experience keeping horses sound and healthy in their senior years. I would love to hear form you about your general approach to joint care over time beyond good training, overall healthcare (including hoofcare) and exercise.

My mare will be 16 this year. She has had a relatively "light" work load for her years, but has been in very regular work the last 4 years. Her gaits continue to improve and she is, overall, consistently sound and able. At this point, I have only included an oral joint supplement (10,000mg+ MSM, 10,000mg+ glucosamine + chondroitin) in her diet. In my sample of 1, I find that she is less creaky with the supplement than without--and I can afford to give it to her. I've tried adding Cetyl-M and HA in the past, but did not get any better results than the basic blend.

I'm in a barn where horses who are working Prelim or higher tend to get some type of joint support, even at rather young ages (starting with Adequan).What is your general approach for joint care? Is it age-based? At a certain level of work? What symptoms stimulate you to make changes in your care? When do you start preventative care? What approaches have been most beneficial for your particular individuals?

Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Srhorselady » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:20 am

A subject near and dear to my heart! I was in my 40s before I had my first horse. I've owned 7 horses in my life. I lost one on the colic surgery table at 17 and another at 24. I lost another at 33 and am still riding a 31 year old. My two youngest are 20 and the 4th is 24 so I feel fairly expert at senior horses. One I've had since she was a yearling and the others I got in their teens. One of the 20 year olds has chronic issues (laminitis plus other issues), but all the others are still sound and rideable.

My priorities for there care, specifically joints, is turnout and activity. Horses as a species need to be able to move. All of my horses have 24 access to turnout, weather and footing allowing it, unless confined for medical reasons. The three riding horses are ridden 2 to 4 times a week. Length and intensity of the rides varies depending on the individual horse, weather, etc. Three of the four get daily Previcox and I am considering talking to my Vet about adding it for the fourth who is 20 and working the hardest. This winter he is stiffer than he has been. My philosophy is if it makes him feel better and there are no side effects and I can afford it then why not. All four are on monthly Pentosan. I started them on Adequan and then moved to Pentosan for both financial and benefit reasons. The oldest horse's lateral flexibility improved noticeably after the change to Pentosan. I started each of them on Pentosan at about the age of 16 mostly as a preventative. Even though our winter weather is mild, I do lightly blanket when the nights get below 45 degrees F. I'm a senior and I feel the cold more than I used to and I assume they do too. They all also get MSM daily, but all the other supplements vary depending on the individual horse. They are all fed Bermuda hay four times daily in nibble nets and a supplement mixture of pellets, senior feed, beet pulp, and a ration balancer twice daily. The thoroughbred gets a little alfalfa but not the others. I have very few health issues with any of them. My chronic laminitic horse went eleven years before she had a relapse last year. She is insulin resistant, has anhydrosis, locking stifles, plus other suspected issues. I have hopes for a new supplement we've been trying on her. I will report on the "after" blood tests in a few weeks. I hope this answers your question.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:38 am

Thank you for your notes, Srhorselady! Yes, this is what I'm seeking: Your experience and management with your horses. I would love to hear the after results, too. I am also interested in diet additions that might help slow melanomas (if there is such a thing).

I am very willing to shift to other management, but am seeking clues. Honestly, I just had the best canter work of my life with my horse this evening :-D -- so in a way she seems great and fine. How did you know when to up the management, or did you just say "sweet sixteen"?

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Fatcat » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:07 am

I just put my creaky hocked 17yo driving pony on Equithrive Joint at my vets recommendation. So far so good! My dressage mare with X-rays showing some hock arthritis gets Adequan every 6 months and is also on Equithrive's Metabarol product which contains higher doses of Resveratrol and my mare is going very well on this combo. I tried to take her off Metabarol and noticed a real backsliding.

Re: lifestyle, My riding mare gets 4 hours of turnout daily, then is in a large dry-lot with stall attached otherwise. She is gets 4-5 days/week of work year round. Driving Pony can't do turnout, but is kept in 2-3 days/week work and is in a large dry lot.
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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:48 am

Also a subject near and dear, since my youngest is 19.

I have five (will post about the latest soon). They look and feel really great.

I feed a timothy/orchard mix hay free choice in a small hole hay net. They also get a flake of Teff.

Weltmann is on Prascend, one tab.

I am able to get a California based low sugar/starch feed, King Feed Carboraider. That plus Triple Crown Senior, Renew Gold, and Omega HorseShine, amounts depend on how their individual metabolisms.

They are all barefoot and spend the day on pea gravel. They are in big stalls (12x24 or 18x240 at night.

They are all on Equine Leg Magic, a mineral supplement that I have seen make a difference. They all get the same Smartpak: MSM, Antioxident, Source.

I don't feed any joint supplement. I do Pentosan series as needed.

George (Lover KWPN) is 24. Weltmann (US Hano) is 19. Riwaldo (Hano import) is 20. Dilbert (Lafit M DWB) is 19.

No one needs equioxx.

They all have Back on Track blankets and I do body work and therapy stuff on them as time permits. They all look really good.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:53 am

I struggle with arthritis myself. Not a single joint supplement made even a scap of difference. Science studies have shown that the chondroitin and glucosamine have no statistical effect when compared to a placebo. Fish oil can help in really high and really expensive disgusting doses, and most recently, rosehip with Gopo is showing promise as an anti inflammatory. I have not tried it yet.
Daily painkillers really exacerbated the situation because I couldn't feel the pain warning of when to back off.

For my own personal management, joint injections, and rest and Tylenol when flares or swells.

I use adequan or pentosan, for the horses, turn out, foot care, and exercise based on how the horse feels without pain meds. If pain meds are needed I give full dose with stall rest and hand walking and only return to free exercise once the anti inflammatory has worn off.



I have modified my horse support based on personal experience. In my opinion if a horse has to be on pain meds to be sound, it's not sound.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Kyra's Mom » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:04 am

I had my mare on MSM for 2-3 years then decided to take her off of it and see if there was any difference. There wasn't.

She will be 16 this year and is moving better than ever. She is out 24/7. It isn't a big space...maybe 1/4 acre but I regularly stash food (hay) in various places so she had to move around and she does. Also, she is fed at the front of the pen and her shed is in the back so being a smart horse and using her shed when it is rainy or windy, she gets added movement there.
The caveat...she hasn't had much of any work in 2 years because I am barely pasture sound and haven't been able to ride much. Straightforward has done some rides with her in 2016 and 2017. That is the secret?? Don't ride? I'm not big into feed through joint supplements. Like Chisamba, they sure haven't helped me and I am just not sure on the absorption of those big molecules and since I bag everything for the B.O. to feed, I like to keep it simple. I did add Vitamin E this year. She has very limited turn out on grass so what the experts are now saying is that it should be supplemented. Whether that is helping her movement as she was a little low? She tends to stifle stickiness and I haven't noticed much of that since she has been on the Vit E for about 3 months now?

If she would need something, I think I would tend to go for the injectable supplements like Adequan or Pentosan.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 pm

Thank you all for sharing your management practices!

If anyone would like to share when "they knew" they needed to go to injectables (or at least try them), please share.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Srhorselady » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:34 pm

My Vet suggested Adequan when my then oldest guy (about 18 at that time I think) was getting stiff and taking longer to warm out of it. At first he got it just intermittently, then since it seemed to help he got it more often. When I read about Pentosan I researched it and passed the information on to my Vet. He said he didn't think it could hurt so I switched, mainly due to Adequans cost. later I had two other older horses, one with known navicular and the other was 19 so we put both of them on the Pentosan also. The 19 year olds lateral work improved noticeably. I put the two quarter horses on Pentosan as a preventative at 16 with my vets approval. My assumption, no actual evidence, is they were getting a little stiffer. However, they do move differently than the thoroughbred and Hanoverian so it is possible I was just seeing that. The one quarterhorses stride length has definitely improved. He almost tracks up now, definitely didn't before, but that could be just training. He's 20 now and moves better than he did at 16 so I'm going to continue using it.

Fatcat, Metabarol is what I have my insulin resistant mare on. We had doubled her Levothyroxine and her insulin numbers had gone up. She has been on Metaboral for a little over two months now and I am cautiously optimistic. She seems better, but we've had other backslides. I have her insulin count from just before we started the Metaboral and we are doing a blood draw next week so keeping my fingers crossed. We've also been experimenting with a variety of foot care attempts. She has what my vet calls the "stretching lamina" plus other issues.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:44 pm

I put them on a pent series when they first come in to the barn. After that, things I might watch for are -is it harder for them to get up and down when they roll? ? Since I do my own trimming, it is harder for them to flex a hind to put on the hoof stand? Are they starting to not track up as well? That sort of thing.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:I put them on a pent series when they first come in to the barn. After that, things I might watch for are -is it harder for them to get up and down when they roll? ? Since I do my own trimming, it is harder for them to flex a hind to put on the hoof stand? Are they starting to not track up as well? That sort of thing.


Geez, you do your own trimming too?

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:15 pm

Chancellor wrote:
Abby Kogler wrote:I put them on a pent series when they first come in to the barn. After that, things I might watch for are -is it harder for them to get up and down when they roll? ? Since I do my own trimming, it is harder for them to flex a hind to put on the hoof stand? Are they starting to not track up as well? That sort of thing.


Geez, you do your own trimming too?


Well natch! >;->

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:04 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:They also get a flake of Teff.

.


I have not seen Teff since i left Africa. You can get it in the USA?

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Abby Kogler » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:13 pm

Chisamba wrote:
Abby Kogler wrote:They also get a flake of Teff.

.


I have not seen Teff since i left Africa. You can get it in the USA?


Yes, it is popular and readily available, at least here in Cal. Cushings horses, PSSM horses, WBs do well on it. My guys don't really like it as I get a beautiful timothy/orchard mix out of Colorado that they hoover up, but I keep it on hand for a client and figure it is good for mine to get a mix of grasses.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Fatcat » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:51 pm

Chisamba wrote:
Abby Kogler wrote:They also get a flake of Teff.

.


I have not seen Teff since i left Africa. You can get it in the USA?

Teff is a great new option for fatties like my Morgan and ponies. We can get it here in Oregon too.
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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:22 pm

We used to eat Teff porridge, for breakfast, as a break from Nshima ( which is corn porridge) the hay was an inexpensive by product. The horses mostly liked it. Like i said i had not even heard of it since crossing the atlantic

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Kyra's Mom » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:16 am

Chisamba, I think teff is relatively new to the US but I heard about it (and got it fed to my horse) several years ago (5 or so?) when I moved back to the barn I am at now. They were re-doing their hay field and for one year, they put in teff then left it for cover and re-seeded the grass alfalfa mix in the fall that year.
I really like what the teff did for my horse. She could eat more without getting fat and she didn't bolt it but ate at a nice leisurely pace so she had hay in front of her longer. She always cleaned it up though.

However, in the PNW, you have to re-seed it every year. It is a warm (hot) weather grass and when it gets to about 40 degrees, it is gone. Since it gets much colder than that here, it has to be re-seeded in the spring. My B.O. says that is too cost prohibitive since they contract out the hay work.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby lorilu » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:33 am

I recently had a conversation with a friend about this. She has a general lameness "review" with her vet every year - vet has one of the new "lameness locator" toys. This year, he wound up getting injections NOT where she suspected but in other joints - and the change was immediate. Her guy is older and doing I-1/GP so working hard.

I have another friend who worked on the development of Cosequin. Some research showed that dogs who received it healed quicker from inflammation under lab settings. So, my two teenagers get Cosequin as a prophylactic. I had a general lameness test done for baseline results last month - Bravo is 12, doing 4th level - and vet found NOTHING, not even any back soreness. I guess I am a believer.

ALso, everyone gets MSM just for its general anti inflam properties.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Hayburner » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:25 pm

Users of Equithrive- would it be helpful for a 31 year old that was recently put on Equioxx to keep him moving comfortably? He really seems to have trouble getting up in this cold weather and lack of turnout. For years I had him on horsetech products until he decided he hates powders and flax. He has Cushings so I have to be careful with other products I give him. I did give him a taste of the Equithrive and he seemed ok with it.

My young mare is on Equithrive for preventive measures and after she screwed up her ankle.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Fatcat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:10 am

Hayburner wrote:Users of Equithrive- would it be helpful for a 31 year old that was recently put on Equioxx to keep him moving comfortably? He really seems to have trouble getting up in this cold weather and lack of turnout. For years I had him on horsetech products until he decided he hates powders and flax. He has Cushings so I have to be careful with other products I give him. I did give him a taste of the Equithrive and he seemed ok with it.

My young mare is on Equithrive for preventive measures and after she screwed up her ankle.


I think it's help, google it, you'll find some good research out there showing it's beneficial effect on hock arthritis.
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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Fatcat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:13 am

piedmontfields wrote:Thank you all for sharing your management practices!

If anyone would like to share when "they knew" they needed to go to injectables (or at least try them), please share.

I started Adequan after a lameness exam revealed mild hock arthritis in my 7yo! :o she was not tracking up on her LH and would swing it wide when trotting. X-rays showed some small changes in both hocks. She's rock solid since getting on Adequan. She gets Adequan (a series of 7 shots --one every 4 days), twice a year.
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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Hayburner » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:41 pm

Fatcat - The specialist that recommended the Equithrive for my mare said it is good for other joints as well as the hocks. He said, since it's only been tested on hocks that is why they don't mention the other areas it can help.

I just wondered if it was too late to start this supp and the benefits would not be seen. I'm not sure if it is his hocks, he just doesn't seem to have the strength to pull himself up. He has to rock, sit, think and try again. He's on mats and sawdust so the mats kind of make it a bit slippery as well. I do bed him deeply.

Anyone know how long Equithrive takes before you notice improvement?

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:51 pm

Thanks again everyone for sharing your approach and experience. I think the "lameness review" with a specialist is a good idea for us this year.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Fatcat » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:36 am

Hayburner wrote:Fatcat - The specialist that recommended the Equithrive for my mare said it is good for other joints as well as the hocks. He said, since it's only been tested on hocks that is why they don't mention the other areas it can help.

I just wondered if it was too late to start this supp and the benefits would not be seen. I'm not sure if it is his hocks, he just doesn't seem to have the strength to pull himself up. He has to rock, sit, think and try again. He's on mats and sawdust so the mats kind of make it a bit slippery as well. I do bed him deeply.

Anyone know how long Equithrive takes before you notice improvement?


They have you do a loading dose tapering down after a month to maintenance dose. I noticed a difference at about three weeks.
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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Sue B » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:16 pm

Chisamba, I have some Teff pancake mix. Want me to send it to you? easy to get as it's grown here.

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:08 pm

It would never have occurred to me that Teff could be a human food >;->

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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Fatcat » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:34 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:It would never have occurred to me that Teff could be a human food >;->

Oh yes, it's a grain popular in Ethiopia. We have an Ethiopian friend who was happy to hear it's becoming easier to find in Oregon.
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Re: Your joint care and management approach: When and Why?

Postby Hayburner » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:52 pm

Happy to report that I did start giving my 31 year old the Equithrive and within a very short time, I noticed he gets up easier ! Since he's so picky - I got the molasses flavored one and he gobbles it right up.


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