Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:40 pm

My horse had a touch of this last summer for the first time but he really got it bad this summer. These are large, raw sores that scab over and bleed like a MOFO when you pull them off to put meds on them. The largest sore was about 2 inches across the entire back of the left pastern and was cracked and bleeding.

I don't know whether this is scratches or what. It is just on the back of the hind pasterns and occasionally tiny scabs along the hair line in the front and sides. I think it is a crazy reaction to bug bites. He has lost most of the hair on the back of the hind pasterns so I think the whole area is reacting to something.

Anyway I have been putting triple antibiotic or desitin or tinactin on it and it was getting worse. It finally occurred to me that fly strike was involved so I started wrapping the pasterns with a minimal amount of vet wrap (pink) after scratching off the scabs, dabbing the blood until it stopped, and putting on the medicine (triple antibiotic is what I settled on that works best). Enough to cover and stay on but not too much so that the air can't get through. The sores are shrinking greatly. The large sore has skin growing over it and he is not getting new sores. There are still a few sores that need to close but they are not getting bigger.

A vet wrap set lasts a day or two. If it is still on after 2 days which is usual I change it anyway. I apologize to everyone for driving up the worldwide price of pink vet wrap but I foresee keeping him wrapped the entire summer even after the sores are healed to prevent new ones.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:52 pm

Whether it is scratches or something else, I swear by Panalog. It requires a script though.

https://equimed.com/drugs-and-medicatio ... ce/panalog

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:08 am

That sounds like it would work given the ingredients. I was using an OTC topical steroid also but that didn't seem to help.

As usual, I took a slow stroll down the pharmacy aisles to see if there is something else I could try. The last time I did this I bought antibiotic mouthwash for the itch my horse had over his whole body last year. Tonite I bought liquid bandage. i think that will work to avoid fly strike but I am not sure how long it will last.

Moutaineer
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1183
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Moutaineer » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:35 am

While I hate the fact that we don't have enough water to keep the outdoor ring in good shape though the summer, snd wildfires are a constant worry, posts like this remind me why I like living and keeping horses in the high desert .. few bugs, no dew, no skin funk unless you own a Clyde, sweat evaporates before you get to the barn aisle...

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:52 am

"Sweat evaporates before you get to the barn aisle"

Wow--now that offers me some perspective. :o

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:13 am

Calgary Alberta is the best place I have had a horse. Dry and cold. The land that thrush forgot.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby demi » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:18 pm

Shoo fly leggings. Valley Vet Supply. I tried all different kinds of leg protection for Emma and these were the best. I was very skeptical at first but they turned out to be way better than any of the others. I leave them on 24/7, turnout and in the stall. I can easily lift them up every day to check underneath. They don’t fall down, they have the best ventilation, shavings don’t stick to them. And the best part is that she has had only a couple of fly bites on her legs this year.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby kande50 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:50 pm

I very vaguely remember treating my horse for scratches on his lower hind legs once when he was about 2, and again about 5 years later. Not sure it was the same as what you describe though, because I don't remember any bleeding, and I think I probably would because both his back legs are white.

I did a lot of reading when I was trying to figure out how to get rid of it, and the treatments seemed to be all about scraping the scabs off and keeping the area drier. I tried a lot of different antibiotics and fungicides, until I read that once treatment was started it takes about 3 weeks to clear up no matter what kind of goo we put on it.

Each time he got it I couldn't pass up the opportunity to put something like triple antibiotic on one leg and maybe tea tree oil on the other, and I think they were right about the goo because both legs healed up in just about 3 weeks.

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1341
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:52 pm

My trainer swears that sauerkraut will heal scratches. It has to be the fermented kind, but it seems like that would be painful with open sores.

Manuka honey might be worth a try since you are wrapping anyway. Yeah, I'd get some fly boots to use once the lesions are healed.
The UDBB member known as AQHA Hunter

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:55 pm

36427222_10212906777484215_7835430093609500672_n.jpg
36427222_10212906777484215_7835430093609500672_n.jpg (237.13 KiB) Viewed 1526 times

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:58 pm

Those will stay on at least two days usually. I did not try the liquid bandage yet as I want to know if will last at least 24 hours. I will try it at some point though.

I will try to get pictures of the sores at some point. The largest one is healing. Some of the smaller ones have healed. Some are not healing.

Demi thanks for the suggestion of shoofly leggins. I will look into that. This is looking so much like a bad reaction to fly strike.. It only started healing when I kept it covered.

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Abby Kogler » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:39 pm

We used to do the sauerkraut trick and it always helped. Its messy though and stinky.

You might try a mix of the triple antibiotic and ivermectin. Yes, Ivermec out of the tube. If you are getting fly or gnat eggs/larva in those scabs that will get them. It works very well.

I have used DryCow tomorrow mixed with ivermectin. Works great.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:42 pm

Some very good tips in this thread! I've been fortunate to not have these issues in the south, but many horses do.

Hayburner
500 post plus club
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:48 am
Location: Western PA

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Hayburner » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:05 pm

My older horse gets some knurly looking white scabby growths on the back of the pasterns too. Like your horse he has white hair in that area.
They don't seem to bother him unless I do try to pick at them, so I don't do it. I will brush them up and down and some of it just comes off in my brush. Since I just let them be, they don't get better but they don't worse. I have friends that do scrub them, pick them off and treat them, but they do reoccur.

My guy has Cushings so I try to avoid any open wounds that could let infection set in.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:07 am

Hayburner, I am not sure we are talking the same thing.

These sores will be open, cracked and bloody or scabbed over with a dark scab if left unwrapped. The scabs can't be brushed off except possibly with a very stiff brush. They worsen overnight if left unattended. They will bleed and bleed and bleed when the scab is removed which I do every time because that seems to hasten healing. I sometimes leave some blood to help anchor the vet wrap when it dries though it stays on pretty good without that.

I will be keeping him wrapped all summer whether they heal or not as I don't trust they not to recur.

Tuddy
500 post plus club
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Zehner, SK Canada

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tuddy » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:59 pm

Buy a bottle of Well-Horse, it is a resin texture and I put it on anything that has a sore/scab/open wound.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:03 pm

sores.jpg
sores.jpg (23.81 KiB) Viewed 1458 times


Not the best picture. The large sore that extended across the entire left pastern that was cracked and bloody is largely healed. The smaller ones not so much. Overall this state of affairs is 90% better than at its worst so I am winning this war.

Josette
500 post plus club
Posts: 997
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Josette » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:51 pm

This reminds me of chiggers if your horse was in an infested grass area. My guys have white legs too and that is what I thought they had last year. Same location with these bite marks that get really nasty and can require antibiotics.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:59 pm

Josette wrote:This reminds me of chiggers if your horse was in an infested grass area. My guys have white legs too and that is what I thought they had last year. Same location with these bite marks that get really nasty and can require antibiotics.


Hey you might be right. I will investigate that.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:24 pm

I use tube socks with the toes cut out. I slide them on over clean feet and let them gather over the tetlock and pastern. I toss them when they get dirty or full of weeds. My vet makes a fabulous mix that destroys bacteria, fungus and softens scabs and protects, has some panalog to promote healing.

His heels look good Tsavo.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:27 pm

Okay I read up on chiggers. The description I read does not quite match. The description and pictures match scratches perfectly. This is scratches I am sure.

That said, I hit it with tinactin for the first several days and they got worse. I think it is because they were not covered. Once I started covering them, it didn't seem to matter whether I used tinactin or triple antibiotic. The key was keeping them covered.

I will hit it as some point with my steroid cream when the sores are mostly healed.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:28 pm

Chisamba wrote:I use tube socks with the toes cut out. I slide them on over clean feet and let them gather over the tetlock and pastern. I toss them when they get dirty or full of weeds. My vet makes a fabulous mix that destroys bacteria, fungus and softens scabs and protects, has some panalog to promote healing.

His heels look good Tsavo.


Thanks Chisamba. The tube sock idea is better than the vet wrap. I can wash socks and I don't have to drive up the world wide price of vet wrap for other people. :-)

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:21 am

LH.jpg
LH.jpg (25.17 KiB) Viewed 1424 times


Left hind.

heddylamar
500 post plus club
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby heddylamar » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:33 am

That looks just liks scratches to me.

My vet recomends pulling off the scabs, lightly washing, drying (I use a clean cloth and then a hair dryer on no heat), and then applying a 50-50 mix of furazone and desitin. Furazone shouldn't touch your skin, so I use two popsicle sticks to grab a clean dab of each, roughly mix together, and apply.

The scab won't re-form as extensively, and this stuff is impervious to sweat, damp grass, etc. Just wash and repeat until the scratches are gone.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:47 am

After reading up on it, this is classic case of scratches. So I agree with you on that.

Early on I used desitin a lot but that never seemed to move the needle. Also, the anti-fungal didn't seem to work any better than triple antibiotic. What worked was religiously pulling off the scabs, putting some ointment on (doesn't matter what), and then keeping him wrapped 24/7/365.

I am winning this war but it is going to drag out the whole summer as far as I can tell.

Melody
Novice
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:22 pm
Location: Meeker, OK

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Melody » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:43 pm

I have a mare that has had scratches a good part of her life. I have a huge list of stuff we have tried. Vet cultured and hers is a very resistant bacteria. Started using just this now: https://www.equiderma.com/collections/f ... for-horses
Cleared up one back leg and just a few scabs left on the other. My husband puts it on every other day. We don't do anything else any more. No washing, no picking. I read tons of threads on this over the years and vets involved with no luck until we started using this. Have no idea why this seems to do the trick with her. Had other zinc mixtures I made myself with the stronger zinc and other stuff mixed in. I don't remember how to post pics on here or I would show you just how horrible it was with her.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:35 pm

Another boarder told me she cured scratches in a few days with a strict regime of pulling the scabs off, scrubbing with betadine, and slathering with a 1:1 mixture of neosporin and desitin. No wrapping. She said the lesions were healed in 3 days and gone completely by a week. They have not returned. She has a pinto with all white legs.

Yesterday I started using betadine but continued with triple antibiotic and wrapping. If it is improved I will go to that boarder's protocol.

I have little confidence that this is one thing given all the things scratches is claimed to be by known quantities. I think there is some component of abnormal reaction to fly saliva combined with intrinsic skin physiology especially since it mainly if not only affects white areas with pink skin.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:47 pm

Melody, as far as I know, the equiderma is a relatively new product. It wasn't around when I treated my cases of scratches. I have used it on cannon bone crud and some other things and it worked great.

Tsavo, it really depends on several things and how bad the scratches are. Pulling the scabs off IS recommend by most vets because you want it to be exposed to air. It seems counter productive to wrap, but that was advise given to me for one bad case I had. To put on gooey stuff like desitin with no wrapping is going to be a mess. I'm not an advocate of desitin for anything, including prickly heat. I would never again use betadine on scratches. I did that once and it burned the leg bad and the horse was lame.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:02 pm

Wow thanks for the input, MC. This stuff is just so dicey.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1143
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby khall » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:31 pm

I've dealt with scratches over the years. One thing you may look into tsavo is if your horse is cushings. The cushings horses get stuff easier, I know my mare did until I put her on prascend.

What works on my farm is destin and hydrocortisone mix. One of my vets recommended it and it has done the job here. Not too much issue with it this year. Keeping shorter grass helps.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:16 pm

Tsavo, I forgot something. The last time I dealt with them the vet had me use the sheath cleaning gel to soften and remove the scabs. If you google on scratches, you're going to find various recommendations and some conflict. Those people that have dealt with them and cured them stand by their methods. While the scabs are best removed, only do so when they are soft; do not force or pick them off. Also, make sure the leg is bone dry before applying any cream. The purpose the the creams is to keep out moisture. I still firmly stand by Panalog. I think you don't see so many people using it because it requires a R/x and is pricey. It's amazing stuff.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:41 am

Thanks khall and MC.

I have to say I was using desitin for the first while and it didn't seem to help at all or even hold status quo. So I stopped using it and went with tinactin. That didn't seem to help so I went to triple antibiotic which did move the needle somewhat though not jaw droppingly so. I started wrapping and that seemed to correlate with healing of the sores so I kept doing it.

He is almost healed but this last bit is very stubborn. He is not getting new lesions which I consider a huge win at this point even if I can't quite close the oldest ones. They are shrinking and drier though.

Today was a gym day so I didn't see him but I will see if the betadine did anything when I go there tomorrow morning to ride before work.

If I can't close the lesions I will try to panalog I suspect though i can buy all those ingredient OTC at the drug store, albeit not at he same concentration necessarily. I will look up meds and concentrations in the panalog and see if I can't mix up my own batch.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:07 am

Okay kids, here is the deal. I started spraying Lanacane first aid spray and all but one sore has healed and the one left is drying up. Best of all he has grown his hair back over both pasterns and it looks normal. I use A LOT... soaking the sores. If he ever gets this again I will be soaking the sores AM and PM with this stuff.

Image

Tuddy
500 post plus club
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Zehner, SK Canada

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tuddy » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:50 pm

Good to hear! And good to know about the spray! Thanks for the tip!

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:58 pm

You're welcome Tuddy but I think there is reason to believe scratches is a mixed bag and what helps one horse at one time may not help that horse at another time or another horse at all.

when I told my barn owner I was alternating tinactin with triple antibiotic she decided to try spray tinactin on her horse. It really worked well, much better than on my horse. I was using so many products and wrapping and then not wrapping that there is no way I can identify any one thing that solved this. I really can't even say the hair growth which occurred coincident with the lanacane was due to the lanacane. It may have grown back at that time anyway as the condition was generally getting better slowly.

Anyway the key is to keep trying until something good happens. Good luck.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:49 am

Another sore opened up. I adopted a scorched Earth policy. Multiple hits of peroxide then a drenching with iodine. Let's see what survives that.

The issue of only being on white areas brings in a level of biochemical complexity that makes scratches much less straight forward than it might appear. The potential role of fly or chigger or whatever saliva as demonstrated by covering the sores adds to that.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1143
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby khall » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:51 am

Have you had them biopsied to see what is causing them?

The other thing you may want to look into with having an older horse is Cushings. That can lead to a less robust immune system where they are more susceptible to various maladies, scratches being one.

My older mare Gallie (Rip's dam) was having bad time with them and she does not have white legs which was causing cellulitis. Trying to treat the cellulitis led to her foundering (was giving dex per vet to reduce the swelling). After her initial foundering we checked her for PPID and sure enough early indication via TSH testing. Been on prascend since and low and behold have not seen much problem with scratches (very very mild scabbiness in very wet deep grass) and no cellulitis. Something to think about.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:54 am

khall thanks for that suggestion. I looked up the symptoms and noted if they are present...

Signs of Cushing’s include:
Hypertrichosis (long, curly hair ) - NO
Delayed haircoat shedding - MAYBE
Change in body conformation (muscle wasting and rounded abdomen or “potbelly”) - NO
Decreased athletic performance - NO
Change in attitude/lethargy - NO
Fat deposits, especially along the crest of the neck and over the tail head - NO
Laminitis - NO
Increased drinking and urination - NO
Recurrent infections - Scratches this summer and a lesser case 2 summers ago
Abnormal sweating - NO
Absent reproductive cycle/infertility - Gay gelding
Neurologic deficit/blindness - NO but possible loss of some hearing

I don't think he fits the Cushings case.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:26 pm

The sore is no worse and possibly slightly improved. That is a huge win in this game. I hit it again this morning. This is a balancing act between killing microorganisms and letting the tissue heal. I will make sure all microbial life is obliterated and then try a liquid bandage tomorrow. I am not taking any microbial prisoners.

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Abby Kogler » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:22 pm

A horse can need Prascend and have few to none of the symptoms. It doesn't hurt to check. Starting a horse a Prascend *before* he becomes overtly symptomatic is not a bad idea.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:44 pm

The scorched earth policy is preventing the sore from exploding into a scabby bleedy mess as the other sores did. That said, I think I need to back off so the tissue can heal. I still have't tried the liquid bandage but I think now is the time. I will scorch the earth one more time tomorrow to make sure the sore is aseptic and then try the liquid bandage.

I think there is some component of an allergic reaction in scratches. I think maybe it a reaction to fly or chigger saliva with bacterial or fungal infections being secondary opportunistic ones. That would explain why anti-fungal and antibacterial meds work a little but not completely and why covering the sores helps. I was using spray cortisone and that seemed to help which is consistent with this suggestion. And the broad spectrum agents that kill everything like H2O2 and iodine helping stop worsening but not healing the sores is consistent with the secondary infections not driving the train.

When my horse lost his shoe last week and I walked much of the property looking for it, I got several chigger bites on my ankles. I don't know why they wouldn't bite my horse also. And maybe there is some research that chiggers are attracted to light color which would explain why scratches affect mainly white areas.

Backyarder
Greenie
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:44 pm

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Backyarder » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:11 am

My mare gets dew poisoning...much like scratches....the vet told me to wash off the scabs with Betadine scrub...leave the soap on for 15 minutes to help soak the scabs off , then pick all the scabs off and treat with Special Formula.....but I found it easier to wash, then dry , then coat with zinc ointment, wrap with saran wrap and then stable bandages over night....in the morning the scabs were soft and would come off easily...then treat with Special Formula...it's an antibiotic mastitis treatment .It works really well....Oh, and I had to keep her off the wet pasture , on a dirt paddock till the grass dried off mid morning.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:40 am

Backyarder wrote:My mare gets dew poisoning...much like scratches....the vet told me to wash off the scabs with Betadine scrub...leave the soap on for 15 minutes to help soak the scabs off , then pick all the scabs off and treat with Special Formula.....but I found it easier to wash, then dry , then coat with zinc ointment, wrap with saran wrap and then stable bandages over night....in the morning the scabs were soft and would come off easily...then treat with Special Formula...it's an antibiotic mastitis treatment .It works really well....Oh, and I had to keep her off the wet pasture , on a dirt paddock till the grass dried off mid morning.


Very interesting.

In re wet pastures, the only time my horse can go out is over night because it is too hot during the day. And I want him out until the last possible moment. He stays sound if he is out as long as possible. He hasn't limped from his ringbone in a few weeks. I can't remember the last time. There is a correlation with limping and not being out.

The dew is drenching but there is nothing for it.

What is the technical difference between dew poisoning and scratches?

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby kande50 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:41 am

Tsavo wrote:And maybe there is some research that chiggers are attracted to light color which would explain why scratches affect mainly white areas.


One theory I've read is that the white hairs are coarser and that somehow causes them to hold more moisture. I've only very casually compared the white legs to the black ones, but the hair does seem to be coarser on the white ones. There also seems to be a time component, so both the length of time the horse is exposed to the wet conditions before scratches develop, and the length of time it takes before the scratches go away, which makes it very hard to assess which treatments worked and which didn't.

We don't have chiggers, and I don't think fly bites are a factor on my horse because the scratches have always started just above the hoof under the back fetlocks.

My horse has had scratches twice in 14 years. The first time he was a 2 year old, and from what I can remember it was a mild case that cleared up with little treatment. I did however, take him off pasture and put him in the indoor until the scratches were gone. The second time was when he was about 10, and that time I kept him off pasture whenever it was wet and treated the scratches much more aggressively. From what I remember, the second infection was more extensive so I spent a lot more time treating it, but it still took about the same amount of time to heal. During that time I did read that scratches usually take about 3 weeks to heal, so unless one sticks to the same treatment for the entire duration and has the opportunity to assess multiple durations, it's very hard to tell which treatments might have helped.

We just came out of a long dry spell and are now into a rainy one, and while I haven't brought him in yet, I'm keeping an eye on the area just above his hoof and will bring him in if it starts to look pink/chapped.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:02 pm

The long time frame of healing is obvious and certainly contributes to the confusion over what works and doesn't work. I think the sores have a minimum time measured in weeks that they need to heal and as long as you prevent or curtail the secondary infection, the sores will heal and appear to respond to whatever product you are using. If you don't do that they they go on to be scabby and bleedy from secondary infections. I caught this last one in time so it never became scabby and bleedy. Instead of a scab is just got a soft light yellow covering that is very easy to take off unlike the normal scabs which are very hard to dislodge.

That they will heal in that minimum time also explains why a simple infection with bacteria or fungus cannot be healed quicker. That's why I said I think there is complex biochemistry. An allergic reaction. A bizarre reaction. It is obviously not a straightforward infection which explains why it is mysterious and defied explanation. I wish I could do the experiment of testing the bug saliva hypothesis by keeping my horse wrapped all summer. I could but don't want to drive up the worldwide price of vet wrap.

Backyarder
Greenie
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:44 pm

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Backyarder » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:25 pm

I did a little reading on Dew poisoning and scrathches and I guess the name can be interchangable....but seeing as my mare gets it from the dew I prefer to call it that...I also found a good product to protect her legs and keep them dry , best used after they are healed....It's Mud Shield powder...expensive but in my opinion worth the cost. Put it on before every turnout..it takes about a tablespoon per leg....or less. I've heard that Gold Bond also works but I am not sure about that...and baby powder...but the Mud Shield sheds water well...I'll stick to that.
Attachments
mudshield.jpg
mudshield.jpg (27.57 KiB) Viewed 955 times

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:59 pm

Mud shield powder sounds like an interesting product. That's the same idea of mine to use a shield of a liquid bandage. When the sore is more healed I will try the liquid bandage.

On a general note, I have moved very far away from horse products and just get my meds at a drug store where they are often cheaper and better. Humans have many of the same conditions so it makes sense and saves money. The H2O2 is literally pennies and poofs all microbes. And the iodine from a drug store is almost certainly cheaper than that from a horse store.

The most effective med against thrush is peroxide and iodine. I was glad to see a vet talk about peroxide for thrush in a recent DT. Both are much cheaper than many thrush remedies that don't work as well.

Xanthoria
Herd Member
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:47 pm

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Xanthoria » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:48 pm

I spent all last winter with one horse's legs wrapped due to scratches. i thought it would never end, and I'm gonna share what I tried and DIDN'T help, and what did help, for posterity.

Did not work:
Alushield - no chance
MTG - no help, and I smelled like hell-bacon.
Corona ointment - no help, and impossible to remove
$20 scratches spray containing copper sulphate - no help
A week of SMZs BID - no help
Nitrofurazone - nope
No Thrush Dry Formula powder - says on the bottle it cures scratches. It doesn't.
Athlete's foot spray - nope, mostly because it HURTS to apply. I tried it after horse told me to go take a hike!
Silver sulfadine ointment - no help, and was $$$
Supplementing with zinc, copper and vitamin E - at the time I thought I'd been doing this for a year. On closer inspection zinc was missing: I added that this year... so, TBD on that one...
Called vet and she said "oh it's getting there! Try coconut oil - I swear it works!" Yaright.

Things I didn't try, but people suggested:
Chlorhexidine ointment (2% or 4%?)
Steroid cream PLUS neosporin PLUS clotrimazole PLUS Desitin PLUS cow mastitis treatment
White Lightning gel
Wrapping the legs with sauerkraut or using apple cider vinegar (same idea I think?)
Chlorhexidine 2% plus SSD (silver sulfadine?) cream and 3 cc dexamethazone (involves vet)
Dexamethasone in DMSO gel (involves vet)
Icthammol? Anyone?
Soaking boot with copper sulphate crystals (because I have both and copper sulphate is antifungal)
Krud Zapper (sulphur + phenol)
Gold Bond Powder? It's only zinc oxide and menthol...
Eucalyptus oil + zinc cream
Listerine
Hilton Herbs Mud Defender
Tea tree oil mixed with almond oil
Desitin? It's only zinc oxide...
Coconut oil - this sounds like BS

What worked: Do not skip, or skimp on, any step: mark my words.
Clip leg.
Wash leg with Chlorhexidine (Hibiclens).
Dry leg THOROUGHLY - hair dryer or a square of clean towel wrapped with a polo for 30 mins.
Mix neosporin and clotrimazole and applying thickly to area.
Wrap with cotton, Vetrap, and Elastikon.
Repeat daily.

I ran out of my paste mix, so I swapped to a container of Biozide iodine gel eventually, but it got it all under control in a soggy wet pasture. WHAT a malarkey...

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:15 pm

Thanks for writing that out, Xan. I bought a pricey goo from my vet that has two active ingredients, chlorhexidine and a steroid, that I could have purchased more cheaply at the drug store. And it isn't working.

I am forming a few hypotheses about scratches...

1. It is not the same from horse to horse and from bout to bout on the same horse. This explains why there is not one established cure.
2. It seems to improve in a few weeks no matter what you do. I don't know but I don't think it would improve if you do nothing, though.
3. Taking fly strike out of the equation by keeping it covered seems to help.

Things I have tried that I don't think work better than time:
Cortisone
Tinactin
Iodine
Triple antibiotic
Desitin
Lanacaine
Pricey vet cream
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Abby Kogler » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:52 pm

What has always worked for me is putting ivermectin and then DryCow.


Return to “Veterinary, Nutrition, Grooming & Farrier Questions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests