Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

khall
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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby khall » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:08 pm

Cheapest fix I have found was Desitin mixed with hydrocortisone cream. Apply daily before TO. Other is keep grass cut short.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:17 pm

khall wrote:Cheapest fix I have found was Desitin mixed with hydrocortisone cream. Apply daily before TO. Other is keep grass cut short.


I have tried both. No go.

I have to admit that the pricey cream the vet sold me makes the scabs much easier to remove. Also, when I removed them today, there was some skin and only a few areas that were bleedy. On the other hand, we are reaching the time when they tend to get better anyway. I have cleared him without this magic ointment in the past. Then this one opened up.

They keep the grass cut here.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby khall » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:21 pm

Tsavo did you ever test your guy for cushings? My older mare had major trouble with scratches that led to cellulitis and then foundered when vet used dex to treat the swelling from cellulitis. We tested her then, early PPID and has been on prascend since. Very little issues with dew poisoning (scratches this year, have treated very little) since she has been on prascend. She is in deep wet grass all night long too. Can't keep it cut this year it is growing so quickly.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:22 pm

Hi khall. We talked about this. He doe not fit the symptom profile. At least two other horses, both younger, are dealing with scratches.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:49 am

Tsavo my mare did not either. No long hair coat that would not shed, fat but not cresty neck or fat pads, had never had laminitis before the dex, she was struggling with scratches and the resulting cellulitis (so was a cushings horse that I was caring for already). But she was 20 at the time, vet suggested to check since she did founder on dex and sure enough early stages. Amazing now her weight came off on the prascend her feet look great and little to no issues scratches and NO cellulitis or swelling. Her coat always sheds in fact now on prascend she sheds in bald patches in the spring and then fills in. She is putting on a coat now earlier than the others, but not hairy just the start of a winter coat. She has always had a thick winter coat, Rip does too.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:04 am

My horse will be at the clinic today for the eyelid. I will ask the vet about the connection between scratches and cushings and if my horse should be tested.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby tlkidding » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:55 pm

Some horses need more than the "minimum recommended" of zinc, copper, and Vitamin E in their diet. I do a high dose (8,000 IU) of Vitamin E daily and have seen a huge reduction in skin issues (4 white legs and at least one always has something brewing towards scratches).

My vet has said you could culture each leg on a single horse with scratches and find 4 different organisms. His recommendation is to try something for 1 week and if it's not making significant improvements, change to something else.

I no longer clip the white legs and do no scrub or shampoo them. I alternate between applying my vet's in-house scratches cream (desitin, steroid, triple antibiotic) and furacin with dex (pull up most of a vial of injectable dex and squirt into a contain of furacin that's been microwaved for 20 seconds or so, replace cap, shake vigorously). I've previously had some luck with ketoconazole shampoo, silver sulfadiazine, Eqyss Micro-Tek, and athlete's foot ointment and spray. I've never wrapped to treat scratches but have applied the treatment of choice 2x daily.

I've also found that when you get it down to a few tiny spots, like each about pencil eraser sized and only 1 or 2 spots, just leave them alone. Sometimes when I've picked at the scabs, I've ended up causing it to spread. I think benign neglect gives the horse's own immune system time to fight off the small bits of scratches.

I've also had scratches with a fungal component that responded to athlete's foot spray in the middle of the area and the scratches ointment at the exterior where there were scabs.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:48 am

tlkidding wrote:Some horses need more than the "minimum recommended" of zinc, copper, and Vitamin E in their diet. I do a high dose (8,000 IU) of Vitamin E daily and have seen a huge reduction in skin issues (4 white legs and at least one always has something brewing towards scratches).

My vet has said you could culture each leg on a single horse with scratches and find 4 different organisms. His recommendation is to try something for 1 week and if it's not making significant improvements, change to something else.

I no longer clip the white legs and do no scrub or shampoo them. I alternate between applying my vet's in-house scratches cream (desitin, steroid, triple antibiotic) and furacin with dex (pull up most of a vial of injectable dex and squirt into a contain of furacin that's been microwaved for 20 seconds or so, replace cap, shake vigorously). I've previously had some luck with ketoconazole shampoo, silver sulfadiazine, Eqyss Micro-Tek, and athlete's foot ointment and spray. I've never wrapped to treat scratches but have applied the treatment of choice 2x daily.

I've also found that when you get it down to a few tiny spots, like each about pencil eraser sized and only 1 or 2 spots, just leave them alone. Sometimes when I've picked at the scabs, I've ended up causing it to spread. I think benign neglect gives the horse's own immune system time to fight off the small bits of scratches.

I've also had scratches with a fungal component that responded to athlete's foot spray in the middle of the area and the scratches ointment at the exterior where there were scabs.


I agree with almost all of this. This is clearly a moving target.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:49 am

Tsavo wrote:My horse will be at the clinic today for the eyelid. I will ask the vet about the connection between scratches and cushings and if my horse should be tested.


I asked my vet about any connection between scratches and Cushings. No.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby kande50 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:15 pm

Tsavo wrote:
I asked my vet about any connection between scratches and Cushings. No.


According to the ECIR website Cushings horses have an increased susceptibility to infections, allergies, and hypersensitivities.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Yes but the point is you can't diagnose Cushing's just based on scratches. That is, not all horses with scratches have Cushing's. In fact I suspect only a very small fraction of horses with scratches have Cushings.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby kande50 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:05 pm

Tsavo wrote:Yes but the point is you can't diagnose Cushing's just based on scratches. That is, not all horses with scratches have Cushing's. In fact I suspect only a very small fraction of horses with scratches have Cushings.


True, but it's something to keep in mind because no one wants laminitis to be their first clue that a horse is developing PPID.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:07 pm

How frequent is laminitis the first indication of PPID? I mean don't most horses have some other sign or symptom first?

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby kande50 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:08 am

Tsavo wrote:How frequent is laminitis the first indication of PPID? I mean don't most horses have some other sign or symptom first?


There's a whole slew of other symptoms that may occur first, but laminitis is often the first one anyone notices.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:16 am

Define "often"

There are 6 horses in this barn. Three have scratches, my horse (now clear) and two others who are younger. Fifty percent.

Is it possible my horse got scratches because he is developing Cushings? Yes. Is it likely given the barn situation? Not really.

(Money shot) Should the other two horses be screened for Cushings?

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby kande50 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:09 pm

Tsavo wrote:
(Money shot) Should the other two horses be screened for Cushings?


Depends on whether their owners want to know more, or not. Personally, I'd wait until I saw other indications that led me to believe that PPID could be developing, but then I'd live to regret that decision if one of them foundered.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:29 pm

How often is laminitis the FIRST indication of Cushings given the long list of signs and symptoms of which that is one?

Are you really saying all horses who get scratches should be screened for Cushings? Would any vet agree with that?

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Srhorselady » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:50 pm

Travois he is your horse and of course it is your decision BUT what people are tying to point out to you is that your horse is over 16 and about 1/3 of the horses over 16 come down with Cushings. One of the primary symptoms of Cushings is a compromised immune system which makes them more susceptible to any opportunistic bacteria etc. Your horse may or may not have Cushings. It is just something to rule out. There is a good article in The Horse May 2018 issue describing six different cases of Cushings all with different symptoms. One of the more advanced cases had few symptoms. I’ve had several horses with Cushings all with different symptoms. Pergolide improved the quality of life on all of them. The test just provides more data. It is your decision.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:16 pm

Srhorselady, thanks for that info. I will look for that article.

I will ask my vet again if my horse should be screened for Cushing on the basis of scratches. That said, when I brought up the concern and asked him about the connection, he did not then volunteer that we should screen my horse for Cushings. It would have been an apt time to do so.

When I was at the clinic, I saw a BOATLOAD of that med he has for scratches. I think it is rampant here in NC. If I factor out the horses at my barn who I don't recall having white, it might be 100% of the horses with white have or had scratches. My horse is presently clear but the others are not.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby kande50 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:02 pm

Tsavo wrote:How often is laminitis the FIRST indication of Cushings given the long list of signs and symptoms of which that is one?

Are you really saying all horses who get scratches should be screened for Cushings? Would any vet agree with that?


I'm not saying any of it, as I'm just repeating what I've been reading. If I run across the sources again I'll post them. Whether anyone decides to screen depends on how they feel about screening. Some have baseline rads and all sorts of other diagnostics done, some don't. I have horses who have never had scratches but could be developing Cushings based upon other signs, but I feel no need to screen them because none of them are on grass 24/7--or even 6/7.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:58 pm

I wouldn't say I have "feelings" about screening. I would say there either is or is not enough evidence to justify it.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby khall » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:42 pm

Tsavo based on his age alone I would be screening for cushings. After reading the article TK wrote about is enough for most of us to realize that our older horses are at risk for this issue even if they are not showing symptoms.

I was just relaying my experience with my older mare (she was 20 when she foundered) and was having terrible issues with scratches and cellulitis at the time. Now has been turned out for 2 yrs, have had wet wet summers last year and this year, deep grass and little to no issues (have treated 1 time this year) with scratches and no problems with cellulitis. Her weight is the easiest to manage ever (wears a grazing muzzle on TC lite). I also like to get blood work done (chemistry) on my older horses anyway, usually annually. We did the TSH testing again to check how well she is doing on prascend and her levels were good.

Again he is your horse to do with as you see fit. Just relaying info from my personal experience and yes compromised immune system was her issue, why she had scratches.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:52 pm

A bit more than 1/5 of horses >15 yo had PPID

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3318300649

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:59 pm

Have to read carefully about how this subgroup was selected but I think these are among confirmed cases...

"For 44 horses included in the follow-up study, the most commons signs were hirsutism (84%) and laminitis (50%)."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... 12.00932.x

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:01 pm

"Aged horses with PPID were more likely to have had a history of laminitis than non-diagnosed horses."

https://thehorse.com/115851/ppid-risk-f ... s-studied/


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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Amado » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:17 am

My horse is having issues with two sores on the back of a front pastern, definitely scratches - I’m having luck with vetericyn. (Once I got the scabs loosened up and removed using a mixture of triple antiobiotic and miconizole) I spray on the vetericyn and wipe it off with a paper towel several times, til the the towel looks clean, then spray it on and leave it.

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:05 pm

Thanks Amado for that data point. Are the sores on white?

This thread has been very enlightening.

My horse has been clear for a while now. I can only assume it is the power of no prayer whatsoever. :-)

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:53 pm

I agree, this thread has had an awesome pile of ideas (which I've shared with others).

A new to me product I just ordered (for seasonal fungus, but supposedly helpful for scratches and summer sores, too) is Coat Defense. We shall see...

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Re: Scabby bleedy sores on the back of hind pasterns - winning the war

Postby Amado » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:37 pm

The area Rico’s sore are on is not white, Update - a few weeks ago I made the mistake of putting regular bellboots on and it irritated the sores, which meant I had to start over! Had to soften the scabs again with miconazole nitrate, then cleaned daily, alternating between wiping with a betadine solution that I sometimes did not rinse off, and vetericyn. They are looking good, now I’m checking every day, brushing the mud off, and seeing if his body will take over. I also glued some fleece around the rim of the bell boots and that has stopped the irritation.


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