Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

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Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:55 pm

It has been raining pretty much daily. My horse lost one front shoe last week and then he lost the other last night.

I think he can go barefoot based on the fact that I didn't note a difference when the shoe was lost last week. I did notice a difference when the other horse I ride lost a shoe. Based on that and the continued rain, I am going to try him barefoot again. He has normal gaits now so if it changes it will be due to being barefoot. I will give him some time on this and then either keep him barefoot or put the shoes back on and hope it stops raining.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:29 am

The climate has changed. We can't keep the shoes on. We will go at it barefoot.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Chisamba » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:42 pm

its been wet here surprisingly late in the year. i prefer barefoot if it is at all possible

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:01 am

Climate change is real. Barefoot is an option! Hope all works out for your fellow.

Sincerely,

Emi, barefoot first by necessity (abcess-land) and now by choice (via diet and trimmer)

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Moutaineer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:23 am

And here we are, so dry and burning up, with the ground like iron. My barefoot guy has had to go into shoes so he still has feet.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Kyra's Mom » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:49 am

Rain...what is that? My barefoot girl has hooves like flint. And they are doing a champion job of chipping. It is only cosmetic. They look like crap but she is sound as can be despite hoof appearance.
She is getting trimmed this week, a week late because of my surgery. They will look better for a couple days :roll: .

If your horse is happy and sound on the ground you have without shoes...go for it.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby kande50 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:08 am

Kyra's Mom wrote:Rain...what is that? My barefoot girl has hooves like flint. And they are doing a champion job of chipping. It is only cosmetic. They look like crap but she is sound as can be despite hoof appearance.


I too, think that chips are only cosmetic and are just a temporary side effect of allowing hooves to self trim, which IMO, is the best way to maintain healthy hooves. As long as the walls stay short and the bottom of the hoof is on, or at least close enough to the ground so that it gets enough stimulation, I leave the hoof alone.

If I wanted the edges to be smoother I'd just run a rasp around them, but it makes no difference to the health of the hoof.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:18 am

I love hearing about hard feet on your horses. My horse used to have hard feet when he lived in Calgary, the land that thrush forgot. Dry as a bone.

I don't think there is enough product or husbandry in the world to counter the amount of precip we have had. My horse in on dewy grass all night and part of the morning. It is drenching. He might as well be standing in a stream.

Without shoes he is mincing slightly. I hope that goes away. In shoes my horse has recovered and the rehab is over.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:07 pm

Nope nope nope. I had one almost normal ride after the shoes on the front were pulled and since then his left hind is toast. He could not canter straight. I lunged him today and he both fell out and locked the stifle. I am sure the hock is flaring also. His has a large limp on the left hind.

Is this a coincidence with pulling the shoes or has pulling the shoes made him travel differently to the point of toasting the left hind?

This horse is broken after I had him back where were were a year ago. I may have to go to glue on shoes if pulling them has caused this.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm

There's a saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I wouldn't be going back and forth between shoes and barefoot. That said, I think it is a coincidence that barefoot he is lame, unless that lameness is in the foot. I think he probably has more than one thing going on, as many horses his age do. As I've said to you before, I think you need to accept that he is winding down his athletic career and things are not going to get better; only worse. I'm of the thinking that I want to retire my horse sound enough that he can enjoy his retirement, not wait until he is so lame that I can't ride him anymore. Think about that Tsavo.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:12 pm

Well but my vet's advice was to NOT retire him. I did anyway and that appeared to be the wrong thing to do.

Before the left hind incident recently, he was moving as he was a year ago. By that I mean comfortably. He was not that comfortable at the beginning of the rehab because he stiffened up during the retirement. So the vet appears to be correct about not retiring him and working him so that he is more comfortable.

Turnout can keep him comfortable for sure but work can also and maybe better just like physical therapy makes people feel better.

What would you say to my vet?

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:13 pm

I listen to my vet but not always. I have my own opinion on things, as you know. I have had vets make some bad judgement calls.

The point is that the horse is lame now, so why would you want to ride a lame horse? I think it is BS that people think horses do not like to be retired and they want to be in a work program. People think that to make themselves feel better. As long as they have turnout and a buddy, they are happy as clams.

I will ask you this. When will you retire him? What will it take for that to happen?

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:36 pm

My horse is lame now on the left hind. He was sound for weeks before that. I can't ride him now. I could ride him then.

I will retire him if he can't come sound. If this left hind issue doesn't resolve I will have to retire him. He has had a flare of lameness on this leg in the past I I asked about fusing the hocks. If this is a flare he will resolve. If it is an acute injury he will likely resolve. If it is something worse it won't resolve and I will retire him.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby kande50 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:18 am

Tsavo wrote:My horse is lame now on the left hind. He was sound for weeks before that. I can't ride him now. I could ride him then.

I will retire him if he can't come sound. If this left hind issue doesn't resolve I will have to retire him. He has had a flare of lameness on this leg in the past I I asked about fusing the hocks. If this is a flare he will resolve. If it is an acute injury he will likely resolve. If it is something worse it won't resolve and I will retire him.


This is interesting, because I feel that if my horse does have a more vulnerable hind it would be his left hind, because I think that one helps compensate for the right front club more than the right hind does. The right hind steps out laterally more, but the left hind steps under medially, and for some reason I feel like that puts more strain on the left hind. I don't know because I haven't had any diagnostics done because he appears to be sound, but at some point I may, just so I have some kind of a baseline.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:58 pm

While the left hind has the only foot that is close to normal, I agree the left hind leg probably takes a beating with a club on the right front. The issue is at least stifle and probably also hock during this episode. During the last episode it appeared to be hock as he was not falling out or locking the patella then. We buted him last night and he is sound going left but still limping slightly going right with the bad leg on the outside.

I will bute him a few more days and see where we are.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:39 pm

Update from yesterday... the gimp on the left hind is there but much improved. And now he is also gimping on the left front presumably because he is out of work resting. It has been weeks since he gimped on the left front presumably because he was in work. It's like a science experiment with work and the left front. Anyway, this is the first time I am fairly certain I detected two lamenesses at the same time. Of course it would have to be confirmed with a Lameness Locator. :-)

If the left hind doesn't resolve soon I will have to have him worked up.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:56 pm

I think a lot of what you experience is coincidental. Take it or leave it. I obviously have a different approach to horse health care than some. I do not adopt a 'wait and see' approach. If my horse looks even a tiny bit nqr, the vet is out. That's how I roll.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:29 pm

It might all be coincidence. Who knows.

What do you think the chances are that a vet has a treatment for either lameness? Isn't the chance near zero? I think you have more faith in vet med than I do.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:42 pm

Tsavo wrote:It might all be coincidence. Who knows.

What do you think the chances are that a vet has a treatment for either lameness? Isn't the chance near zero? I think you have more faith in vet med than I do.
If the hind end problem is hock or stifle joint related, I inject, preferably with Irap. If it is soft tissue, then it's rest/retirement. For the front, it's probably the ringbone, which I haven't dealt with and not up to speed on. I would imagine injections for that too. It's the rare senior horse that doesn't need joint injections to be more comfortable even though some people resist and live in denial about it. Also, if he was still lame on bute, that's no small thing.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:33 am

musical comedy wrote:
Tsavo wrote:Also, if he was still lame on bute, that's no small thing.


Yes he was. But he was off bute a few days on Thursday and the limp was almost gone.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:34 am

By the way, the evidence case for injections is thin as far as I know. Do you have more info?

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:57 am

Tsavo wrote:By the way, the evidence case for injections is thin as far as I know. Do you have more info?
I'm not sure I understand what you are referencing. I am talking about joint injections (not pentosan, adequan, legend im/iv). The evidence is that it helps tremendously. I can't believe you don't know that. I've owned horses for over 40 years. I've injected many of them with obvious positive outcomes. Ask any good sport horse vet (not some backyard vet or holistic vet).

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:14 am

There is, however, little experimental information regarding the effects of injection of corticosteroidal anti‑inflammatory agents into previously damaged or arthritic joints in non-experimental settings. Considerable evidence exists that a single injection of steroids into normal joints is not particularly harmful. Many arthritic joints benefit from the relief of inflammation, even if only temporarily. In fact, there is some good evidence that the drugs, when used appropriately, actually protect joint cartilage from the damage caused by inflammation. Still, the ideal dose, as well as the ideal corticosteroid, isn’t known. Further, there’s a good bit of evidence to show that when used in excessive amounts, or with excessive frequency, they can have harmful effects on horse joints. Because injection of corticosteroids into joints is such a common procedure, the effects of corticosteroid injections into horse joints are the subject of much discussion in the veterinary community.


https://www.doctorramey.com/intra-artic ... osteroids/

-------------

In humans, hyaluronan is given in a series of injections (unlike what is normally done in horses). While there is some evidence to support the effectiveness of hyaluronan in decreasing pain and improving function in human patients with osteoarthritis of the knee, there’s still no consensus as to its effectiveness (although it has proven to be popular). In humans, the effect of hyaluronan injections appear to be small, not really much different from the results obtained from oral nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). The various hyaluronan products all appear to be about equally effective in reducing pain. There’s no evidence to suggest that hyaluronan protects joint cartilage in any species, however.


https://www.doctorramey.com/hyaluronan- ... onic-acid/

----------------

[IRAP]
How effective is it? Well, frankly, there’s not been a lot of published information yet, but one study in horses, as well as a study of 376 people with osteoarthritis of the knee, have each concluded that it’s an effective treatment for joint inflammation. It can be used post-surgically, as well as in cases of osteoarthritis that aren’t responding to other treatments; it’s an option for first-line therapy as well.

IRAP® is certainly another option for treating your horse’s joints – whether or not it’s a better option is a question that still needs to be answered. There is a big difference between treating inflammation and eliminating the cause of inflammation. In addition, the expense of the product compared to other, more easily obtained, alternatives may limit it’s use in many cases.


https://www.doctorramey.com/irap/

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:16 am

musical comedy wrote:I am talking about joint injections (not pentosan, adequan, legend im/iv). The evidence is that it helps tremendously. I can't believe you don't know that. I've owned horses for over 40 years. I've injected many of them with obvious positive outcomes. Ask any good sport horse vet (not some backyard vet or holistic vet).


I have had my horse's hocks injected three times. The first two times there was no change. The last time maybe there was some change but not obvious. He was also injected for ringbone. No change.

So I am asking for evidence because I don't have any.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:18 am

I'll just say there is a reason people get back surgery and that reason often is that the injections don't work. One study came out that it is the lidocaine alone that is working within a steroid injection in people.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:52 am

Ok, you just do what you feel best. Others will do the same. I do wish you would increase your sources of knowledge and not put so much faith in this Ramey dude.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:02 am

Ramey is a very good place to start because of his publication record. I seriously doubt there are many other practicing vets with quite that large a pub list. There are research scientists in a similar place in their career with less pubs. I really need to emphasize it is unusual for a vet and shows his deep interest in research, helping horses, and helping people with heavy wallet syndrome.

In those blurbs, he is not really stating his opinion. He is abstracting the state of the literature on these topics up to the date the blurb was written. He is the messenger. There is no interpretation involved here. There either are or are not published studies supporting x treatment. It is bean counting of studies mainly.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:14 am

By the way anyone here could have written those blurbs if they know how to search the literature. You just search and then count the papers. MC you can check his work yourself. Anyone can. There is no faith involved in any of this.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:34 am

Tsavo, it's like those old discussions about chiro and accupuncture, where posters claim without doubt that they've help, when you produce evidence they don't help because you can't find 'scientic research' to support it.

I mostly agree with you about the woo-woo stuff, but with IA injections, I believe there is evidence of it working. Also, they ARE temporary, so when you say something works for a short time, that is true. Low motion joints in the hocks can be injected regularly and commonly are.

Wayne McIlwraith is published and lots of studies are done at the research center on various treatment for joints.

http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/academic ... raith.aspx

Do you even have xrays on your horse's stifles and hocks? If not, you need them. Perhaps it's the stifle that needs injection? Perhaps it's soft tissue in the stifle? Maybe it's the SI. Without baseline xrays and repeated xrays and lameness exams over the years (preferably by the same vet), you don't even know what you are treating.

Your horse could have arthritis in the upper hock which is why lower hock injections wouldn't show improvement. Bute and rest would ease the inflammation but it will return as soon as you put the horse back to work.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:08 pm

I only have hock radiograghs from the PPE I think. I may have others. No stifle. I will look at that website.

I lunged him today and his left hind looked okay. Still had the left front gimp but I can deal with that. Then I got on him and he trotted okay. Then I cantered him and his left hind gimped.

Here's what I have... I will have to review the timeline but I think the reason I put fronts on him a few months ago was due to a gimp on the left hind or at least I think that was coincident. Have to confirm. Then we were able to work consistently to the point where I stated the rehab was over. Then it rained and rained and he couldn't keep shoes on. Then I pulled the shoes. Then I had ONE normal ride before his left hind goes out.

After the rains next week I will put him back in shoes. If the left hind comes sound then we have probably left the coincidence building. I think he is overweighting the hind as he underweights the fronts from not having shoes but we will see.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:10 pm

Nope. Shod in mid April and last hock flare was early May.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:18 pm

Okay my horse came in limping on the right front. Barn owner thinks it is an abscess. So we have definitely three legs gimping. With three legs gimping I think it is a done deal the fourth, the right hind, will get toasted. If so it will be a true case of quadrilaterally lame without use of a Lameness locator. I am contacting the papers lol.

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby musical comedy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:31 pm

When are you getting the vet work up? Does the right front have a digital pulse and/or is the hoof warm?

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Re: Rain, lost shoes, and barefoot

Postby Tsavo » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:41 pm

musical comedy wrote:When are you getting the vet work up? Does the right front have a digital pulse and/or is the hoof warm?


I emailed him today to come today but he didn't respond. I suspect he is out of own. I will call the office tomorrow.

I wasn't at the barn today. I think the barn owner suggested an abscess because of a sudden onset.


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