Update update: back problem??(long)

VBOpie
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Update update: back problem??(long)

Postby VBOpie » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:17 am

Lad's blood work came back positive for EPM.



:roll: The vet came out today and examined Lad. She suspects EPM or some other neurologic problem. She was very thorough. She did a lameness exam, etc. She feels it is EPM or some other neurologic problem. She had me get on so she could observe Lad's behavior. Blood test for EPM was sent off to UC Davis and we should have the results midweek. She said groundwork should be okay, but agreed he shouldn't be ridden.


I'm going to ramble here, because I'm not sure what may be a factor in my gelding, Lad, not wanting to walk under saddle. Lad is a gray thoroughbred in light work. No history of lameness, and he is barefoot. He will be 20 in 2016. I am a lower level dressage rider who rides three to four times a week. Recently (in the last month or so), Lad started to stop and resist moving - sometimes, he doesn't even want to move off from the mounting block. When he does this and I urge him forward, he feels like he is huffing up for a buck or rear (neither of which he has ever done). He was treated by an equine trigger point myotherapist for a sore area in the 12-to-2 quadrant above his right hip . My BO has walked along with us rewarded him with carrots when he walks. For two or three rides, we did this. Lad would walk off; we'd walk around the arena, cross the diagonal, etc., go back for a reward. He went willingly and quietly, but eventually, even the carrots didn't motivate him. I thought maybe it was a saddle fitting issue. I had a saddle fitting last November, but I recently noticed one side is flatter than the other and am trying to arrange for the saddle fitter to come back. Lad has had about a month off from work (a combination of bad weather and my being away for the Thanksgiving holiday). Today, I tried a different saddle with a wider tree and still the same reaction. My thought is that with the time off and a different saddle not making a difference, the issue probably isn't his saddle. Also, sometimes if I am saddling him up, he will put his ears back, swing his head up and down, swish his tale, and maybe stomp - again, this is recent behavior.

One thing I want to make clear is that when he indicates discomfort, I do stop whatever I am doing. If we are trying the walk, I get off. If I go to get on, and he acts like he doesn't want me to, I don't. I am not comfortable doing this if I think I am causing him discomfort, but I feel I have to keep trying things. As someone I respect told me, horses don't sit around thinking of ways to get out of work. The horse is clearly trying to tell me something isn't right.

Another boarder has a dressage horse who is retired due to navicular. For a few years before he was diagnosed, he refused to move forward to the point of rearing when he was pressed. Everyone kept telling her it was an attitude problem, but, really, it was the navicular. No one had any idea! She suggested that when the vet comes, I have her put the hoof testers on him. She said that even though the problem is manifesting in the back, it could be originating somewhere else. I do not suspect navicular at all, but it is not a problem just to check this box.

I have owned Lad for about four years, and he has never exhibited this type of behavior before. Would a poorly fitting saddle cause this type of behavior? Also, he has three lumps along the right side of the neck. He has had these since I've had him, and we have been watching them. Would it be possible for them to be pressing on something that makes him uncomfortable when saddled?

I am going to call the vet out and have him examined. I'm just at a loss.
Last edited by VBOpie on Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Josette
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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby Josette » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:09 am

How does he move in turnout or when you lead him? Can you walk - trot him on a lead line like a lameness exam? Will he balk or move freely forward? Maybe these clues will also help determine if it is specific to placing a rider's weight on him. I agree he is uncomfortable about something and not being naughty.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby musical comedy » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:11 pm

I think there is a serious problem. When a horse refuses to want to walk under saddle (when it is a new behavior) there is a pain issue and the liklihood is that it is in his back. i would get X-rays and suspect kissing spin or something like that. I would get a vet that specializes in sport horse lameness, not a chiro or bodyworker. Actually, if it were my horse he would be at the clinic asap if he refused to walk under saddle.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby VBOpie » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:15 pm

He is perfectly sound and moves freely w/o the saddle. He runs, bucks, gets silly in the pasture, etc.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby Kyra's Mom » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:47 pm

Well the fussiness while being saddled is pretty typical for a horse with ulcers. Just one thing to throw out there for a differential. It sounds like he has turnout and pasture but some of them just get them.

There is a video out there somewhere from a vet that illustrates the areas of discomfort if a horse has ulcers. Found it...Equine Ulcer Diagnosis by Mark Depaolo DVM. Very simple palpation which may give you a clue as to whether it is ulcers or not.

He is definitely telling you something. Jingles you can get to the problem and get it corrected.

Susan

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby nightlace » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:58 am

We horselovers need to get our Private Investigator Licenses. Sometimes it takes ruling out all kinds of possible issues before figuring out where the horse's pain comes from. It could be ulcers or kissing spine or a soft muscle injury or something else.

I had a horse who was on pasture 12-24 hours a day, and he developed ulcers. He became very grumpy to saddle & offered to bite when girthed. He became difficult to mount & refused to go. It was my first encounter with equine ulcers, so I was very perplexed.

Good luck in getting an accurate diagnosis and an effective treatment.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby VBOpie » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:33 am

Nightlace

That sounds just like Lad. I know someone else mentioned ulcers, too. If it has to be anything, I'd rather it be that than kissing spine. The vet is coming out the 10th.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby Sue B » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:35 pm

When my TB does that, it is the saddle always. Sometimes the saddle bridges and puts too much pressure at the withers and over his loins. The first time I went thru this was when I was searching for a saddle that fit. When I finally found one, and got it fitted to him, it took a few moments for him to realize that it didn't hurt any more. So I would REALLY pursue the saddle fitting. (And no, he exhibited no tenderness when palpated, and the way he indicates it's time for a saddle check is by looking at the girth when I tighten it.)

My other TB had kissing spines from an old injury. If the saddle wasn't to his liking, he would hump his back and threaten to blow up when I got on and asked him to move off. This would last approximately 3 steps and then he'd be fine--naturally I would then go on the search for a saddle fitting appointment. Eventually the spinal arthritis was too uncomfortable and I retired him, up to that point though, dressage kept his back muscles strong and him happy.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby musical comedy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:12 pm

You can rule out the saddle or girth by having someone get on him bareback.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby kande50 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:34 pm

musical comedy wrote:You can rule out the saddle or girth by having someone get on him bareback.


Then, if he's fine with a rider without the saddle, try just the saddle with no girth.

At least you have a very definite behavior to work with, instead of something really subtle.

I know a horse who got really sticky about moving forward, and when multiple vets couldn't find anything wrong some of them told the owner to get a bigger whip. But she knew there was something physically wrong with him, so kept looking. What they eventually found was that the cartilage was damaged inside his stifle joint, which was why they hadn't picked it up on previous workups. They tried some sort of a procedure, but it didn't work and they retired him at 8.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby musical comedy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:53 pm

There are just so many weird things that can be wrong with a horse unrelated to how they present. A long time ago, I had a young friend that did hunters. She had a horse she had raised from a foal. All of a sudden, he would take this bucking episodes. She sent him to a trainer and the trainer ended up getting dumped. At some point, xrays revealed he had a crack in his wither. How that occurred, they didn't know. The recommendation was to just rest him with a guarded prognosis. I don't know how it ended out because we drifted apart.

Then remember udbb poster DressageArt. She had a fei mare that fell down with her while riding. They found that mare had (I think) a chip in the neck that was pressing on something that affected the spinal cord. Who knows how that happened or whether it was always there and the chip just moved location.

There are a lot of nerves and soft tissue between the back vertebrae.

I wish I could find the source, but it was a good one. It said that willing horses will try to work for us through all kinds of pain, except back pain.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby VBOpie » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:46 am

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments. Both the kissing spine diagnosis and the ulcer diagnosis were two things I hadn't considered, and I wouldn't have made the connection that Lad's symptoms might indicate either one. I thought a horse with kissing spine tended to have a more violent reaction and just didn't think Lad could have ulcers. I have a vet appointment next Thursday morning to have Lad scoped and am working on the saddle fitter appointment. I will be sure to post an update.

Kande50, I'm with the owner you knew who had the vets tell her to get a bigger stick. I think Lad is definitely trying to tell me something is wrong, and to be honest, if he is uncomfortable, he is being as gentlemanly as he can about giving me the message, and I respect that.

I'm leaning toward ulcers. Knowing Lad and his behavior, I think he is a prime candidate. Re: saddle fit - I don't think that's it, but, as I said, I'm still having the saddle fitter come out. I tried a different saddle, and there was no change. I agree with hopping up on him bareback, but I don't have any place high enough to do that, and with his irritation at someone getting on him, I'm not about to push my luck. The only other person at my barn is the BO, and she is in her 70s, so that's out.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby Hoof'n it » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:38 am

I have a feeling this is a find a needle in a hay stack type of issue.
I would firstly consider a back issue maybe caused by an incorrect fitting saddle to begin with. So now any pressure on the sore spot (regardless of the fit of the saddle) puts pressure on it.
If that is ruled out, if he has been turned out for the last month, could he have rolled wrong/got cast/taken a miss step and he is compensating when not under saddle, so you can't see an issue until the saddle either causes pain or makes him move in a way which triggers pain.

But no matter what, I would get a good lameness vet out as a starting point to do a full lameness exam and start working through the issues.

One thing, if you put the saddle on and lunge him, what is his response?

The other thing that has run through my mind, is if you instantly get off him or back off from your aids if he 'jacks up' 'in pain' that could be rewarding the behaviour. You know your horse the best, but I wouldn't put it past one of my horses to do this exact same thing if I reward it - if they are in pain or not.

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Re: back problem??(long)

Postby kande50 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:26 am

Hoof'n it wrote:The other thing that has run through my mind, is if you instantly get off him or back off from your aids if he 'jacks up' 'in pain' that could be rewarding the behaviour. You know your horse the best, but I wouldn't put it past one of my horses to do this exact same thing if I reward it - if they are in pain or not.


To go along with that, if you do the treat experiment again, try higher value treats (grain is usually the highest, but it varies), and make sure you're not feeding the treat when he's stopped, as that can send a strong message that it's all about stopping. I would think that if he was confused about whether he should stop or go, having a person leading him would clear that up for him, but if he's enthusiastic about the treats and thinks it's about stopping then that could be what's going on?

The information you may be able to get from higher value treats is whether he's in mild or severe pain, as a horse who is in serious pain won't work for treats, but a horse who is in mild pain may be willing to work for a high enough rate of reinforcement with high enough value treats.


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