LS Gap

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LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:11 pm

I'm horse shopping after losing my young horse to wobblers. I'm always trying to learn more about conformation, I'm not fantastic about it. I'm also on a pretty small budget. Looking for something that will be able to one day at least school most elements of third level. Not sure if we will ever show.

I know there is a lot of talk these days about LS gap, pillar of support and the neck. I have such a hard time being sure that I can see the LS gap.

Any tips? Or anyone else have a hard time with this?

I (think) I attached a photo of a little mustang that a friend wants me to see. He's still growing. Top is him a year ago. Bottom is this spring.
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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:50 pm

I think his LS gap is good (close to point of hip) unless I'm just way off about where it is! Which is possible. Lol His pillar of support isn't great. And his neck isn't great either. But I do think he's a cutie. Still growing. He looks stout and sound! For a mustang, I was impressed with his canter on video.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Josette » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:05 pm

Disclaimer that I am not a breeder or expert on conformation. However, I really like this guy. He has substance and looks to be a balanced type. If you like his canter - even better! Plus if he is a solid citizen with a great mind - that in itself is worth his weight in gold imo. Another poster here has a mustang and he sounds like an awesome horse for his great temperament. I would give this guy some serious consideration. :)

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:57 pm

I'm checking him out at his first show on Saturday. He's young just coming 4 I think.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby blob » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:33 pm

I've found that a lot of mustangs have a GREAT canter and walk and struggle a bit more with the trot. Someone once pointed out that this makes sense as out in the wild, they either need to cover a lot of ground or move with speed or they need to conserve energy, so there's often no need to trot.

Things I have noticed about this guy's conformation: He looks fairly well balanced and has good bone. His back might be a bit on the shorter side, which isn't a flaw or problem, just something to consider. His neck i think is fine--a little lower than ideal, but I don't think it looks problematic necessarily. the thing that I think is least ideal is that his pasterns look quite upright to me.

As someone with a dressage mustang, I'd love for you to join the club :) what HMA is he from?

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:19 pm

@Blob thanks! His trot doesn't look awful. Just not amazing but that's okay. Thanks for your take on his conformation. I agree on everything you wrote. My last horse had extremely long pasterns so this guy is definitely the opposite.

Not sure what HMA. I know he was picked up for an in hand mustang makeover, from an illinois location. And I think he won the in hand. So at least he's trainable?

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Re: LS Gap

Postby demi » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:18 am

I don’t have any personal experience with mustangs but I just want to say he’s a nice looking little horse!

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Chisamba » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:42 am

So i think when you are looking in the lower price range you consider mind first. is he sensible, trainable, can you connect with him.

after that, certain conformation is easier. this guy has a nice level topline. the wither back connection he has tends to be hard to fit with a saddle. on the negative his underline is quite downhill. His hind stifles and hocks are a bit higher than his elbow and knees and his neck ties in just a bit low.

I do not consider this a deal breaker when I am looking. watch his trot, does he at least track up and how well does he flex his hocks and stifles.

I think possibly this has more impact than the LS gap.

probably one of the most telling things is does he naturally stand square on the cross ties. another thing I notice is if I gently slide a finger into the bit seat of the jaw, first one side, then the other. they do the things. best thing, do not move their head and keep a soft tongue, if you wiggle the finger they chew.

some horse tuck and others throw their head up and pull. i have found even horses that have never had a bit in their mouth will give you hints about contact when you do that.

I strayed from your question. sometimes a horse with all the wrong body parts will surprise you. my two absolutely best conformation and most talented horses were without a doubt my.most difficult and unsuccessful horses.
Last edited by Chisamba on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby blob » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:59 am

Chisamba wrote:I stayed from your question. sometimes a horse with all the wrong body parts will surprise you. my two absolutely best conformation and most talented horses were without a doubt my.most difficult and unsuccessful horses.


I would also add that I know a couple horses that have really odd conformation, yet are really lovely movers in ways you wouldn't expect! I think also
there are conformation aspects that signal how nice of a mover or how well suited a horse might be for a particular discipline. And then there are conformation aspects that are related to long term soundness. And the latter is much more important. So much of what I we hear about conformation comes from the lens of breeders trying to create top sport horses--which is not the same as someone like me trying to have a nice, sound partner.

I mentioned earlier that pasterns looked a bit upright and this is exactly one of those things. A more sloping pastern would indicate that the horse has more suspension in their movement (which may or may not actually end up being true based on other factors). But this horse's pasterns don't look like pasterns that would create soundness issues.

When you see him on Saturday, do ask his owners what HMA he's from. Partly for my curiosity :lol: but also because there's been enough genetic testing done on various HMA groups that knowing which HMA he's from might tell you some more about his genetics. There are also some other things you can learn based on HMA. For example, there is one that has had several horses with OCD lesions. So, if I was looking at one from that HMA that had already been gentled, I would be more thorough with my PPE x-rays. There is another that is known for really late growth spurts, which is neither here nor there unless you're trying to stay at or get to a particular size!

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Chisamba » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:21 pm

I always look at conformation from a soundness aspect, and reference conformation from the veterinary manual not the breeder manual.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby blob » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 pm

Chisamba wrote:I always look at conformation from a soundness aspect, and reference conformation from the veterinary manual not the breeder manual.


I did not mean to imply otherwise! I was referring to my own comments earlier. That when someone tells me to look at conformation, I often look from the lens of breeding--which is a very high/different standard.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:09 pm

@Chisamba thank you! I am really good about picking a good mind on a horse, that's one thing I'm super confident of having a feel for. The trainer says his mind is absolutely the best. She said he's really trainable and willing, quiet. And already working into the contact a bit. Better than most mustangs I see around here honestly.

But after a video she posted at the trot, I'm questioning soundness. I'm always a little paranoid but my vets also tell me my gut is usually right. I think I see something going on back there. I think I'll check him out in person but I'll be watching closely.

So @Blob, it's really interesting about the OCD in a certain HMA. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I will ask.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:11 pm

The realistic and accepting attitude in this forum is refreshing and exciting. It really makes me excited that so many are doing this with average horses or not so average horses but sharing their journeys with such honesty. It is really fun to read what everyone is doing. I won't have a high dollar horse anytime soon but I can still enjoy the journey once I find the right horse.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:17 pm

When you see him on Saturday, do ask his owners what HMA he's from. Partly for my curiosity :lol: but also because there's been enough genetic testing done on various HMA groups that knowing which HMA he's from might tell you some more about his genetics. There are also some other things you can learn based on HMA. For example, there is one that has had several horses with OCD lesions. So, if I was looking at one from that HMA that had already been gentled, I would be more thorough with my PPE x-rays. There is another that is known for really late growth spurts, which is neither here nor there unless you're trying to stay at or get to a particular size![/quote]

So he's from Silver King NV

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Kyra's Mom » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:24 pm

He is quite handsome.

Having dealt with a horse that was quite 'horizontal' like this, it was hard to have her do dressage work. She had nice disposition but it was definitely a workout on my part to keep her round and stepping forward into the connection. In the end, I just didn't want to work that hard and felt somewhat that I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Caveat...she was longer than him and I think that contributed to the difficulty. I thought I had a picture on my computer but no... I fondly called her my little dachshund. She was symmetrical...just long horizontal neck, long body and long hip. Hard for her engine to lift the front end up. This guy is much more compact which I think would be better. As far as LS gap, I have always gotten my hands on and felt for that. Depending on the angle of pictures, grooming...lots of things, it can be difficult to see the actual LS gap. His appears fine to me.

For dressage work, I would prefer a neck that comes UP out of the chest. I didn't think it was a big deal on the above horse but it was...for my meager training skills anyway. I made her into a solid citizen and sold her as an all-rounder. She was a little WB (15.2) that was out of jumping lines and she could jump quite well. Me...I like to keep all 4 on the ground.

As others have said, their little pea brains are very important. If he is calm, accepting and has a good mind, you are way ahead right there.

Go see him and let us know what you think.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Chisamba » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:12 am

blob wrote:
Chisamba wrote:I always look at conformation from a soundness aspect, and reference conformation from the veterinary manual not the breeder manual.


I did not mean to imply otherwise! I was referring to my own comments earlier. That when someone tells me to look at conformation, I often look from the lens of breeding--which is a very high/different standard.


I think we actually agree . one of the problems with conformation versus brain, a really good brained horse that is, say, built for speed will give its all to collect but probably break down somewhere when asked to collect a lot. so there is the form to function to consider too.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:13 pm

Okay I went and saw him at his first show. A little schooling event. I only watched Dressage but oh my gosh. He's a little guy for sure but SO ADORABLE. Sweetest, kindest eye. Handled the atmosphere better than the older horses in the warm ring. He had a few little head tosses when the trainer first started but went right to work. Really impressed with his mind. He ended up getting 4th place in his division...

I still think I see something in the hind end. He does have a scrape on one leg, I'm wondering if that's it. I was going to still come to his home arena and ride him. If I like him, I might have my chiropractor (who was a vet but doesn't practice that anymore) come check him out. Before a full PPE. So like a mini exam before a real PPE.

He really is cute. I certainly don't want to buy issues so he will have to prove he's sound to me!

I have video if anyone wants to see. He isn't a world beater. Just a really cute mustang for sure.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Chisamba » Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:20 pm

i would like to see video, I'm curious about what you see wrt soundness.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:00 pm

Chisampa I will private message you

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:39 am

Update on mustang: I'm supposed to go try him but she's asking $8k for him since she took him to two eventing shows. He's a 3 year old mustang... He is very cool but that's much more than I thought (she responded to my ad which was a lower budget at the time.)

I'll still go see him but not sure how I feel about that price for him.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Chisamba » Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:23 am

he probably won't pass a PPE

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Re: LS Gap

Postby blob » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:01 am

Lipsmackerpony88 wrote:Update on mustang: I'm supposed to go try him but she's asking $8k for him since she took him to two eventing shows. He's a 3 year old mustang... He is very cool but that's much more than I thought (she responded to my ad which was a lower budget at the time.)

I'll still go see him but not sure how I feel about that price for him.


If you like him, it doesn't hurt to offer what you feel is right to pay. I offered about half asking price for RP, they said no, I said I understood. A week later they said they changed their mind.

And if chisamba is right that he doesn't pass a ppe, if it's an issue that you are willing to live with, that will lower his cost

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:49 pm

I saw him at his event, (just the Dressage) because I had friends showing there. He looked better but I still see something there.

I'm also not sure how I feel about a 3 year old doing cross country, especially on the hard west ground! She said she was giving him time off and that he hadn't jumped much. But still, even at intro, cross country seems like a lot more than a cross rail occasionally in an arena. That's not my area though.

I might still go see him but he's also smaller than I even thought. He's only 13 hands right now. He certainly is cool but maybe not my guy.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:50 pm

@blob I'm so horrible at negotiating!! Ha ha. I'm glad it worked out. I need to up my skills in that area.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:56 pm

And while no horse is perfect, I do want them to be pretty sound at 3 or 4.

My last horse was a little weak on his right hind. All the vets thought it was just him bring young. But in hindsight my vet told me it really might have been related to all his spinal issues. So I'm wary unfortunately.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:28 pm

Not sure how hard you are actually considering this one, but for discussion/conversation (assuming he's sound) I'd probably pay 2K for him, no way 8K but I tend to be uber realistic. A 13 hand young mustang that hasn't done much is not an 8K horse.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:29 pm

PS I quite like him in many ways from the pic. No comment on soundess since I haven't seen in person, etc.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:42 am

Ryeissa wrote:Not sure how hard you are actually considering this one, but for discussion/conversation (assuming he's sound) I'd probably pay 2K for him, no way 8K but I tend to be uber realistic. A 13 hand young mustang that hasn't done much is not an 8K horse.


I totally agree. The market is rediculous in CO in general but extremely high this year. This pricing is not abnormal for what I've seen this summer. It blows my mind. I was thinking $4 or $5k just knowing CO prices and since he did go to a recognized show. But not 8k!!

I do like him. But there was something behind. Maybe young horse weakness. But we all assumed that with my wobblers horse (including many vets) and we were sure wrong about that. :(

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Re: LS Gap

Postby blob » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:30 pm

re: pricing. I think horse people absolutely expect that they will be offered less than what they put on listing. So, I think as you search, you should get comfortable with the idea of offering what you think is right.

Having said that, I think if that mustang vetted clean he is worth more than $2k--he's young, has a good mind, is trainable, has nice movement, could go in multiple directions. I think you could offer $4k and get him if he had a clean vetting.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:00 pm

Blob I've always heard that but it's very hit or miss about whether sellers will take less. I really think I'm just not a great negotiator. I feel so awkward about it. But I guess it comes down to what I'm willing to pay or not.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:15 pm

yeah, its a very personal decision how much to spend and where you live/context. A mustang wasn't/isn't on my preferred breed list (for me PERSONALLY) so wouldn't pay a premium price. It's on par with "regulars" like appys, paints, QH, crosses, etc. I'd pay more for a good half arab that is dressage bred but that is my preference.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby blob » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:20 pm

Ryeissa wrote:yeah, its a very personal decision how much to spend and where you live/context. A mustang wasn't/isn't on my preferred breed list (for me PERSONALLY) so wouldn't pay a premium price. It's on par with "regulars" like appys, paints, QH, crosses, etc. I'd pay more for a good half arab that is dressage bred but that is my preference.



I agree a mustang falls with appys, paints, crosses, etc. But I guess I don't consider $8k a premium price. I would consider all of those to fall under $10k.

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:50 pm

blob wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:yeah, its a very personal decision how much to spend and where you live/context. A mustang wasn't/isn't on my preferred breed list (for me PERSONALLY) so wouldn't pay a premium price. It's on par with "regulars" like appys, paints, QH, crosses, etc. I'd pay more for a good half arab that is dressage bred but that is my preference.



I agree a mustang falls with appys, paints, crosses, etc. But I guess I don't consider $8k a premium price. I would consider all of those to fall under $10k.

https://www.dreamhorse.com/ad/2183970/r ... orado.html
found his ad here. I don't see any jump or riding pics so hard to tell if the price is warranted. I have a 14.3 hand pony and 13 is quite small for eventing.

this horse is 6k mustang who showed in jumping.

Older guy here but lovely https://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.p ... id=2150056


https://www.dreamhorse.com/ad/2179146/d ... evada.html

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Re: LS Gap

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:18 am

Ryeissa that is the horse . He is very cute and did very well in his first event (but I'm not looking to event though.)

I think the market is just high in general right now.


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