Goals and progress January Febuary 2017

[Imperini]

Jingles for Rip, hope he can get to feeling better soon!

I have seen progress with my goal of "more for less" but I sort of feel like it may be something that we'll always struggle with at the beginning of the ride until she wakes up and gets her engine really going. She's been really awesome lately after about 20 - 30 mins of warmup, but I have a hard time getting anything other than a better marching walk at the start of the ride, trot and canter are a struggle. Perhaps I'll get lucky and she'll start realizing that it's okay to rev up her engine at the start too.

In other exciting news I got to experience piaffe and passage on a GP horse briefly the other day. It was definitely the highlight of my day, probably month, maybe year I didn't really do anything it was just a wonderful and generous offer I was given to feel them, but I feel so lucky to even get that.

[Dresseur]

Great post to read Dresseur, because that uphill feeling with quicker hindlegs is now what I think I'm feeling I need to have more of, but since me and my horse are learning together, it's hard to know what is right and what's not.
I've entered a comp next month at medium/3rd level. I'm not sure if we will be ready, I'm having trouble even memorising the tests because I've never ridden at this level before. I know I won't get good scores, but it will help me push on and motivate me with training.

Khall, jingle for Rip. I've not heard of that condition before either. That's not good if he's too unwell for you to ride, that does suck

Can you get a reader for the tests? That definitely helps. I am one that has trouble memorizing tests. Well... I have no problem memorizing it, I have an issue remembering when I get into the ring because of my show nerves. I'll have it down cold and then POOF!

Re the quicker hind legs... I know in theory that the activity shouldn't slow down in collection, but the perception (especially in the piri's) is that it does get slower, and then I end up allowing slower. So, I've been counting out loud which highlights to me when I lose the activity. Of course, the big thing is that you are not holding too much so that if you need to ask the hind for more, the horse doesn't get bigger or tip the balance over. Quick, quick, quick half halts prevent that from happening. I'm also finding that I'm so after "light" that I get worried every time I have too much horse in my hand than I think that I should have. I'm not saying that the goal is not lightness -but, I'm trying to not bail the second the horse goes past my threshold of "too heavy". I need to learn to rebalance and recreate the lightness not just go "oh my, I suck".

[khall]

What I have found when asking for quicker hind legs in the canter, if I stay light or even lighten the rein just a bit my horse will get even higher up front but is not climbing. Really lifting up and out from the base of the neck. One of the last times I rode Rip I was working on turns to straight line C to W and then C new lead. I was making fairly small half turns and return to the track. Really trying to stay light in my hand so I did not block the energy, that is when I felt the CP in the canter because of the quality of the canter.

No idea when I will get back on him, take my filly and boarder Thurs for scope. Jingles that they are clear. Hoping the vet will have a plan for Rip so that he can go back into work. One article I read (chisamba I had to google the syndrome as well, never heard of it before, lucky me to have a horse in GA that has never traveled to TX or the panhandle of FL to have this issue:( ) said that they layered the scaring to release the tension and one I read said they were using stem cells for treatment. My biggest deal is management of the horses on the farm now. What to do.

[Flight]

Now that we've learned flying changes and tried so hard and so long to get them, I'm now trying NOT to do them! My horse thinks everything is a flying change I really want to practice them in the way they come up in the tests, but I just can't. So, I've had to just be creative and add them in only occasionally so he doesn't anticipate.
Khall, any news for Rip and management for the other horses?

[khall]

Hey Flight, so cool that you are getting FCs so easy now!

Yes, I took my filly and one of my boarders last Thurs, filly scoped clean and the boarder shows some scaring but not as bad as Rip and not active. Good news on Rip, the vet has him on pred for inflammation and said to work him to see how he is. So I lunged him lightly Saturday and he was so much better! So hopefully it was the inflammation and not the scaring that was causing him to be uncomfortable. 30 more days on tapering pred. We are also going to do stem cell treatment that is supposed to cure up to 95% of the cicatrix we hope. I found the treatment through corresponding with someone who lost a horse to this. As for management, I have split their field again to the half that they were on all summer. Rip scoped clean last Aug after the ulcerative lesion issue that started in 2015. Hoping that whatever it is causing this issue for him is at the far end, which makes sense to me. 2015 was a very wet summer here and in both of my big TOs in half of the fields I had large patches of dead or disappeared grass. No idea why and ag extension agent was not much help at the time. This was when the 3 out on those fields started with the ulcerative nasal lesions. I am also taking the last 2 of my 4 Wednesday to see if they are showing any symptoms. One was stalled for 10 months from June 2015 into summer 2016 after foundering from dex. Since being out on pasture again she has not been on the big fields but on small TO that is almost dirt lot. Rip's sister was only out on the big fields for a short time this past fall until I lost Anna to colic. She was scoped by the local vet and showed some healing ulcers but nothing active, so will be interesting to see what Dan finds. Dan is hoping that my cases here can give some answers to nasopharangeal cicatrix syndrome because there is none at this time. The knowledge that I have of TO and pasture issues may help to find answers to this problem we hope. Sorry for the novel, just a bit overwhelming here trying to figure out what to do, who to find to help.

I'm hoping to get riding again, has been cold and miserable with high winds here for the last bit, will be out of town on one of the best days hauling to vet and leave Fri to go audit Bettina in FL. Am trying to get some work in between it all. Our DS just got his drivers license last week so no more trips to school, but of course he has an ortho appt tomorrow. Always something!

Good riding all!!

[Dresseur]

Khall, I'm glad that you are getting some good news even though you're not out of the woods yet. Flight, hopefully you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and are coming out of the FC hump!

My lessons on Gala are continuing, I was able to ask for and get 2's and 1's, so I'm incredibly excited about that. Things seem to be clicking there. However, my bigger update this time is Miro. We had a bit of a scare when he whacked the heck out of his inside right front cannon bone - the cut was not deep enough to need sutures, but it swelled up like crazy. He's out of the woods and hopefully the bump is not permanent. His training has been continuing. He filled out a lot and we had a period of time where we were re-discussing steering and not using his stallion-esque neck for evil. (He comes by that neck honestly though, his sire has a HUGE neck, and really seems to stamp the heads and necks of his get.) As you can see in the pics, a year makes a huge difference.

I'm incredibly happy with his attitude and the quality of the work. We're starting lateral work in earnest now and he was born to bend. It makes things interesting. But, the lateral work does exactly what it's intended to do, and is starting to knit him together so that it doesn't feel like I'm riding a bicycle chain. I'm excited to see what this next year brings. In my one year progression pic, it's amazing to see the increase in scope and power of the movement, and, I'm not even asking for power at this point, just that he keep trucking along. His ability to come under is really impressive - in the halt picture, you can see it - he's well under himself without falling over his shoulder. What we've squirreled away in the backs of our heads is that he wants to be a bit slow behind, especially in the canter. Andalusians have a bit of a reputation for being quick and scissory, he's not that - he's long and sweeping and a bit slow. And he likes to be a porpoise in the canter - so, again, in the backs of our heads, we've filed away that at some point, when it's time for flying changes, he won't be a bucker, he'll have a tendency to be a leaper.
1 year progression

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From left to right... halt, regular trot, shoulder in

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canter group

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[Chisamba]

Dresseur, it is nice to see him more relaxed and reaching in his contact. I like how it allows him to be more over the back. Your boy is growing up beautifully.

[Chisamba]

I had my son video me again, and realized i was riding Kimba very up in the neck and making it harder for her to be through the back. This is perhaps why the simply things were becoming more difficult. I worked on being more through the back, and less concern with the height of the poll for a week, and feel like I have made progress on the connection back to front.

Canter

She still looks quite uphill, but seems to be more connected from back to front.

Mini half pass.

letting her work a little lower as she finds her lateral scope.



as usual helpful commentary welcome

[Dresseur]

Thank you! As you know from our conversations, this has been a bit of a struggle - but we're consistently getting much better reach to the bridle. We also started stretching work, getting him to reach down and open up and this seems to be helping quite a bit, but even with completely loose reins, he'd like to hold himself a bit short and tight. So, I think that his go-to will be to hold himself back a bit, so I need to stay on top of this and make sure I'm not riding him too short.

I think that your pics with Kimba are lovely. The canter balance is quite nice and I think you are right, if you picked her up those last few inches, she would hollow and you'd lose the ability to get to her back. The half-pass is also very nice, no twisting and her she's looking as though she's finding her way pretty easily, it's a really good start to the half pass.

[greenholmeshandy]

I managed to achieve some of my goals, I went to the Trec AGM and picked up my award, rosette and got suitably inebriated...

I also went to a dressage completion last Sunday and did Intro C - which is a walk trot test and a bit fiddy and Prelim 18 which is the next level up so involves canter work. The aim according to my instructor was exposure to competing, keeping calm and not having a melt down (and yes she meant me not the pony!).

Whilst not claiming to have done fab tests I was very proud of pony, she loaded well, travelled calmly, worked in happily in an indoor school she had never been in before with whizzy TB, PRE and multi ponys and I plucked up courage and cantered her in the school with others also cantering in various directions. I have never ever warmed up properly before always too afraid of a disaster so this was a massive achievement in over coming my nerves and hers for me.

we did a fab intro c, bendy, swinging back and forwardness, unfortunately that was whilst warming up!

The actual completion arena was a different indoor which was made of very bright plastic all pinging in the sun as the frost melted off it, lots of pretty floral displays and other monsters and pony was pretty frightened. We did the test though and although we were both a bit rigid she was forward and obedient though at one point a walk circle had an element of turn and look at the commander who was probably a poorly disguised dragon.

We were a bit more relaxed for the prelim and despite pony only having learnt to canter on her left lead four months ago did a creditable test, though I managed to translate a canter starting before A to x back to A and down the long edge into canter A circle at B, judge very kindly didn't ring the bell I think they were too astonished...I was incredibly proud of pony as she tried so hard. But my riding - my I look like a wooden clothes peg, tipping a bit forward and no give with my hands. Must work on not being terrified as I literally changed from rider to rigid as I went into the competition arena.

Husband and son came along to film the test and both were impressed by how good pony was behaviour wise. she was very calm and happy afterwards. Alex said some telling comments "Mummy you were so embarrassing all that cringy stress talking as you went into the arena" "Mummy, just remember relax and enjoy and pony will relax and you will be successful", "Mummy don't stop doing dressage as you were so happy and excited afterwards" He is 12 and v wise for his years!


Anyway heres some links to the tests. I would be interested in comments and ideas to overcome nerves pony doesn't go like this at home now (honest!) so any help to assist me is welcome.

https://youtu.be/8aR1bImdCCs

https://youtu.be/VsCDFSjVL0w
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[Josette]

You have made AWESOME progress with your pony!! I'm struggling with my guy too. He can be strong and rush transitions but working figures, serpentine really helps our stiff sides. (I can be stiff as a rider.) Keep up the great work - you should be VERY proud of yourself and your mare! I'll let the experts provide feedback - I thought you both looked great!

[Flight]

Khall, glad Rip is improving, but yes I can see that it would be overwhelming and difficult to know where to get help. Really hope it all continues to resolve for you, keep us posted.

Dresseur, Miro is such spunk! Great pics, and great report to read.
Chisamba, good topic because this is exactly what I have to work out. Now I've got my horse off his shoulders and more 'up' (after years of riding down and round) he's now tending to hollow and not always be connected over his back. I've just got to work out how to get him more rounder again, without dumping his forehand or getting it wrong. I'm going to address this with my instructor in my next lesson.

Greenholmeshandy - that's an awesome report! So happy for you! Now to overcome the nerves you just have to keep going out to comps until you get more comfortable with it. I still get nervous and my legs go all heavy and dead, but it just gets easier the more you do it.

[Sue B]

As the rider/trainer of an "Iberian TB", I empathize with your struggle to keep your boy reaching for the bit, Dresseur. My guy not only defaults to a high, short neck that breaks at the 3rd vertebra (he does this at play in the pasture, not just under saddle), huge high withers and an uber short back, but he was also born with a bit of a ewe neck. Lol, he doesn't sound like much but when we get it all together he's not bad looking in the dressage arena. When we hit 2nd lvl with the beginnings of true collection, I set forth to spend a lot of time riding"deep." Video showed me that what looked like way to low from the saddle, was him just even with the point of his shoulder, so for cues while riding, I focus on the muscles just ahead of his withers. When those are bulging, I feel the muscles at the base of the withers widen too and on video, I see the base of his neck soften and his whole front end rise and his nose reach out in front of vertical. I no longer have to ride him deep as a routine, just brief moments when we need to refocus, now that he is so much stronger. I have noticed too, that he is waaay more likely to take hold of my hand instead of ducking behind. While he will never be 'heavy", he and I have a wonderful hand-in-hand feel for each other now (like 2-3 pounds instead of ounces I guess). This is all in the trot btw. Point being, I guess, that without a mirror, I had to rely on video to really know what was happening. Coaching was not as helpful in this instance as seeing and connecting with what I was feeling.

We are covered with snow and ice still, so riding is not an option right now.

[Chisamba]

Greenholmeshandy: really great canter progress. As for show nerves, just keep doing it. I do have a couple of friends who use mild medication to help.

SueB. The interesting thing about the video, is that even though I have mirrors, it was still more obvious from video that I was not riding Kimba nearly as low as I thought. And when I was riding her up, I was riding her higher than I thought.

It has taken some self evaluation. I rode circles and said, on camera, this is long and low, this is working trot, this is collected. Then I evaluated my video and realized I was not riding where I thought I was.

So I repeated the exercise, thinking I had corrected, and the two videos were not showing much change. So I then exaggerated the change and found my improvement.

Video is excellent tool for evaluating perception

[piedmontfields]

As the rider/trainer of an "Iberian TB", I empathize ... When we hit 2nd lvl with the beginnings of true collection, I set forth to spend a lot of time riding"deep." Video showed me that what looked like way to low from the saddle, was him just even with the point of his shoulder, so for cues while riding, I focus on the muscles just ahead of his withers. When those are bulging, I feel the muscles at the base of the withers widen too and on video, I see the base of his neck soften and his whole front end rise and his nose reach out in front of vertical.

I have gone through this too, with Emi a so-called Iberian WB but really with Lusitano-Trakehner, so we could call it like an "Iberian TB"! I do love having mirrors at our new barn.

I would like to thank Ponichiwa for suggesting over a year ago that pirouette canter to a 180 degree turn to a very FORWARD change is a great tool. Thank you!! It works (!!) and it is clarifying for us both.

I don't know if anyone else resonates with this comment, but I often have the feeling of needing Emi to get her front legs more out in front. I feel it in the change work and also in the medium gaits. She's happy to put her hind legs underneath her, but needs the reminder about the front legs to swing and R E A C H.

Also Flight: Please know that your calm changes continue to inspire us. At this point, that is what on want on request. Today we were not so smooth shifting from canter and counter canter in warm-up to changes in the work set. There was expression! But not so much calm obedience. Sigh. But so it goes as we get aligned and clear!!! Love my little mare's attitude and tolerance of my fumbling.

[greenholmeshandy]

Chisamba you made me giggle (in a good way), my only ever dressage rosette with Brychen followed medication in the form of several vodka and diet chokes , worked wonders for nerves but as I now tow alone it's not an option

[Sue B]

Hey Piedmont, if you ever hit the magic formula for swinging those forelegs out, let me know. I suspect it may have something to do with conformation. At any rate, right now I use the old tried-and-true cavelleti in combination with hill work and occasional romps in the snow (when it's safe.)

[Dresseur]

The conversation re where to ride a horse is something that I find to be fascinating. The absolute to me is that you ride the horse in the posture that is best suited to get to the back and the hind legs. If you don't have the back and you don't have the hinds, you have nothing that will gymnastically develop the horse over time. With my boy, I was being a bit militant about riding him poll high because in my mind, that is classical and that's where it has to be. However, an interesting thing happened as he grew and his neck got thicker and he developed. I lost submission, and I didn't like the feel in his back. So, I put him a bit lower, which made him a bit rounder. Did that shorten the neck for a bit? Yes. However, was I able to get to the hind legs? Yes... because I wasn't hollowing his back, and submission improved, so I was able to continue to shape him. Now, I can ride the neck back out. So, in my mind, it's a valuable lesson... poll high may be the ideal - but, sometimes, based on specific training issues, or specific conformation, it's OK to go lower and rounder. (please note, I am NOT talking about rollkur or any bastardizations thereof.) Had I continued to ride him with the poll at the absolute highest point, and not listened to what his body was telling me, I would have stalled progress quite a bit.

Also, submission seems to be a bad word, because of its negative connotation and tie to rollkur. However, imo, the horse WILLFULLY submitting it's body and mind to the rider is intrinsic to dressage. If you don't have submission to the hand, to the leg, to the aids, you cannot shape the horse. So, if submission is taking a hit, you have to change something to get it back (flexions whatever). Because again, without submission, especially to the hand, you cannot access the back and the hind legs of the horse because you cannot take an effective half halt to shape the energy.

Now, in regards to the forelegs - you can absolutely teach them to reach through the forelegs - but you have to push the mediums to the point of breaking into the canter - because just before they break - they will hit the limit of the stride. The goal is NOT to have them pass the tipping point, but, it teaches them to use their bodies in a different way. It may run a bit, it may be a bit choppy, but again, just before they hit the point of breaking into canter, you will feel that open up the last bit. To me, it feels like they suddenly roll through the shoulders like a swimmer does. I've seen a number of horses with rather limited reach be trained to have very, very respectable medium and extended gaits by doing this.

And, just for fun... canter vid and a wee bit of trot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCtHFCaWfXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZvhg2hNF-E

[Chisamba]

I agree Dresseur, one of reasons i still longe is it allows me to see the horse, as an individual, move , how it carries itself naturally, what does the stride do,
how it carries itself reaching into side reins, what does the stride do,
how it carries itself as you spiral the circle in, and the horse begins to work more uphill into the outside rein, what does the stride do.

this helps me too, with working out what each horse needs when being worked under saddle, horses built very up might need a bit more level work, horses that tend to lean down and go diggity diggity in their short stride might need to work a bit more uphill, and open til they stride out in front.

i try very hard to let the horse teach me.

[Moutaineer]

Just chugging along here. Working on gait quality, straightness and sharpness to the aids. We have FC clean and reliable and pretty damned fancy in one direction, but frequently late behind in the other, so we have stopped working on it for a bit while we get the basics sharpened up.

I have a cheerful horse who is enjoying his routine and is happy to work. The weather has been hugely challenging, but he's been getting turnout every day except I think maybe 2 since the turn of the year, and he's very content to go to work in the indoor and seems to find it interesting to learn new things.

What more could I ask for?

[Moutaineer]

Oh, and Imperini! Give her a bit of time. If she's not been asked to work this way before, she may just not have the level of fitness to handle it yet, as well as not having developed the mindset. It'll come. In my experience, horses love to move once they realize they really are athletes.

[galopp]

Imho riding a horse lower should create shorter outline with more longitudinal flexion because if that happens the snaffle starts to work on the bars, rounder is a condition of the hind legs stepping through, not of the neck. So the submission is something that is offered, not take. If the swinging back has been lost, then question the connection to the outside rein, the axial rotation, the mobility of the jaw; if that is gotten the horse can be asked to lengthen the outline (not just as fdo, but in millimeters), and it will open the thraotlatch, it will offer its back and step through. Poll the highest point tells a story of the willingness of the horse to follow the hand, lengthening of the neck while opening the throatlatch is part of that. Bringing the horse to vertical is one thing (but it is still poll highest point). The only momentary lapse of a leg/hand dictating roundness where the poll might be lost might be laterally with an inattentive stallion so that axial rotation is increased and the mind is regotten. But shortening the neck for more than a few stride easily leads to a steady closed posture because of how the bit acts when this happen.

Lower and more open (in degrees) within every ride, keep the horse seeking the hand, use lateral flexibility to keep the connection to the outside rein and the length of the neck can be dictated nee suggested without demanding 'roundness' in a lower/closed posture. If the hindlegs are lost, that is where one traditionally goes. And here we go all the way back to how the horse is started; give them time to step through and 'merely' be up and open and free early on (if s.r. are used to lunge they are not to be used to demand longitudinal flexion or a low posture); then flexion longitudinally comes naturally over time and through the use of figures and lateral work for longitudinal flexion.

I want the horse to WILLINGLY answer 'yes' to my actions, not just submit. They have to have a voice, and their voice is the use of their balancing rod (aka neck) and the mobility of the jaw. We have to set them up to be able to do that through their balance, and our tact and timing. Once the horse is closed/lower they cannot properly take a half halt (bilaterally).

The ability to reach with the forelegs is because the hind leg joints are folding which lifts the chest and gives freedom the forearms. Remember always that the horse will land (with its forefeet) where the horse's nose points. Limit the use of the neck and the horse will not step through (behind or in front). It is one thing to give the green horse the concept of moving from the leg at all, and another to increase the impulsion from axial rotation and from proper collection's amplitude. Ground gaining comes from impulsion/thrust, not from speed. mho

[Chisamba]

In my opinion if you are not riding a horse, and do not have riding goals progress and trials and successes to share, than pethaps you should take you opinion to another thread since this is specifically a goals and progress thread.

I.may be jumped on for saying this and since it is a group progress thread i realize I am only sharing my own opinion, not that of the group, but for this particular discussion the value I gain is that of what each rider discovers as they actually ride.

[Josette]

This is the Dressage Training forum. Gallop - thank you for your post as it was helpful to me.

[Dresseur]

I think that subscribing to a one size fits all approach can be problematic. I expect a response from the horses that I ride and handle, period, end of story. So, if I do not get a response, or a try (it can be a very small try), I do something about it - and what I do, depends on what I feel is happening. No force required, but tactful timing of the aids that I have at my disposal - voice, weight, seat, legs, hand, a touch with the whip, or flick of the spur if I'm wearing spurs. Submission does not unilaterally mean that you are using force, it can be a beautiful thing. Horses can and do block in the neck - if the posture is too high or too low, or if they lock the jaw etc. - and that will stop the hind legs. It is vitally important to pay attention to the hind legs and the quality of the connection through the back than to obsess over a particular posture. If the horse ducks for a moment, you can't over react, the same as if the horse hollows for a second, but a too-high posture that is sustained does as much damage as a sustained too low posture. And, from what I'm seeing, and in the horses that I've had the pleasure to ride (trained in all manner of ways from Legerete, to seat of the pants, to horses trained in the tradition of the SRS) - the horses that are worked in a sustained high posture feel the most frozen in the back, and the most disengaged behind and they seem to bounce on tendons and ligaments rather than purposefully and athletically step through. So, the posture may be textbook, but the feel is terribly frozen. I also feel as though the neck and the back (connected to the hind legs) need to be one unit, a suspension bridge is a good analogy. I see people break horses off at the neck all the time in the name of a higher posture or flexions and again, with these horses, the bridge is broken. Now, maybe that is a failing of the timing of the people, not the methods, but if a method is so specific that only masters can use it without causing damage - I start to question that. I guess what I'm saying is that just because the posture is correct up front, doesn't mean that it is correct behind or more vitally, through the back - which is something that often you can only feel through riding unless the horse is grossly hollow.

[khall]

I agree Josette, I have always enjoyed gallop's contributions the any training discussion. She has valuable insights into long standing correct work that has always helped me in my own riding.

gallop can you expound on the axial rotation comments?

chisamba I too use lunging to gauge the work that I do with my horses. I can be on the ground observing what is happening in real time. It also shows me how certain influences lead to the outcomes I am looking for. One thing that I have observed in my lunging (BTW I do not use SRs only a caveson and on one mare a rope halter because she goes better in it that a caveson) is how activating the HQs and allowing more freedom in the neck with a draped lunge line leads to greater self carriage and engagement in the horse. I was just thinking the other day I wanted to video Rip on line and post it here to show his progression, but I start his stem cell treatment today and no working him during the 14 day treatment. Hopefully though I will be able to by end of February.

I also have to say I just about sat down and had a crying jag last night. Went to throw hay in the field and found Rip off with a shoe all twisted. He had pulled it off and stepped on the nails, 2 nails in his frog with blood and one nail in the hoof close to the outside wall, clip thankfully not stuck anywhere. I swear I have a black cloud over me starting with the loss of Mark last June.

[Ponichiwa]

Pet peeve from an engineer-- all rotation is axial, regardless of orientation.

Having a rough couple weeks here. Plugging away at it, but I'm starting to think my training goals and career demands are incompatible.

[Chisamba]

Khall. I have had great results with stem cell treatment where used. I really hope it works for Rip.

[Sue B]

Greenholmeshandy--To calm show nerves I sing to myself a favorite tune (usually some Elton John song) that is in the tempo I would like my horse to be going. I also find that looking around at all the people and smiling helps as I enter the arena at A to start the test. The nerves will lessen anyways though, with the more times you venture out I suspect. Btw, there was a time when a sip or two of wine was my go-to calmative.

Galopp: Discussion of theory is always welcome and Chisamba, how we apply that theory in real life is what training is all about. Let us all assume that those taking time to write their thoughts are doing so with the very best of intentions and carry on. Dresseur, I love your comments as well. carry on!

Moutaineer, I am jealous of your indoor and so happy that you seem to have found the perfect spot to keep Lad. It is warming up again, so maybe soon I will be able to hop on Rudy again and put all this great training discussion to use!

Ponichiwa, you crack me up. I hope you can find a way to reconcile your work obligations and your horsey aspirations. Don't you hate when real life gets in the way of fun?

Khall, I hope and pray the cloud lifts and brings you gorgeous Spring flowers in the way of healthy, happy horses.

[galopp]

Certainly as riders we expect a response, but we must always ask why horses are defensive in their necks or jaw. It is one thing to talk about the height of the neck, and another to speak of allowing the throat latch to close to the point that the poll is no longer steadily the highest point (which for me is the most important aspect). As riders we must always address where the jaw is mobile, whether the horse is laterally supple, and to be able to suggest the horse lengthen and open if we are losing (or before we have lost)the connection to the hind legs. But once we close the horse beyond/behind vertical, the effect of our aids changes (upon the mouth, the back and the stepping through). It is not only the height of the posture which should be immediately malleable (i.e. within piaffe when the horse starts to contract or tense the rider must be able to lengthen or open via the seat/leg/or independent use of each bit specifically), but also the ability to sustain the horse out to the bridle. If the horse ducks away from a connection we must as why this has happened, our actions are creating the reaction in most cases (even if we don't understand why), usually the solution is in lateral flexibility (circles to connect the horse to the outside rein, lateral work, timing the aids, etc). The horse must be allowed to carry itself out to the bridle, this knows no school. If the posture is frozen then the horse either is posing from false lightness, or being held in the posture; it is key to have a horse which can be an accordion imho. Imho with traditional methods the horse becomes a comfortable ride for a less experienced ride, and a joy for the master because there is trust in the horse. The posture of the horse is what allows the horse to step through, to be easy to sit because the back is swinging. mho

Axial roation=the swinging back created by ALL the hind leg joints folding and stepping through (one can see this in trot (esp on a circle) as the croup/hips alternately drop, the tails swinging softly. It is created by the effect of a circle, it shortens the base of support, and lifts the chest and allows the shoulders/forelegs more freedom, and causes the horse to lift the neck and arc out to the hand. And it comes also from a proper tempo, too fast and the belly tenses, and the tail becomes rigid.

[greenholmeshandy]

Thank you all for your comments on my update and its interesting to read others comments on other peoples updates. I must confess I find short and simple comments easier to follow and understand (I deal with advising on UK Tax legislation day in day out I think it burns out the little grey cells), Gallops and Dressuers comments I strive to understand but are a bit to technical for me maybe this will change as I progress. I have recently realised that I didn't know how a horse going straight felt or how it felt to have correct flexion and bend from a straight horse until pony became straight then when she went crooked I could feel that naughty shoulder of hers slipping away.As a result of not knowing how things felt when done correctly all the reading I did for years really went in one ear, out the other so I am now re-reading lots of dressage books! That's also a progress for the month honest!

[Ponichiwa]

Thanks for the kind words, SueB.

As the rider/trainer of an "Iberian TB", I empathize ... When we hit 2nd lvl with the beginnings of true collection, I set forth to spend a lot of time riding"deep." Video showed me that what looked like way to low from the saddle, was him just even with the point of his shoulder, so for cues while riding, I focus on the muscles just ahead of his withers. When those are bulging, I feel the muscles at the base of the withers widen too and on video, I see the base of his neck soften and his whole front end rise and his nose reach out in front of vertical.

I have gone through this too, with Emi a so-called Iberian WB but really with Lusitano-Trakehner, so we could call it like an "Iberian TB"! I do love having mirrors at our new barn.

I would like to thank Ponichiwa for suggesting over a year ago that pirouette canter to a 180 degree turn to a very FORWARD change is a great tool. Thank you!! It works (!!) and it is clarifying for us both.

I don't know if anyone else resonates with this comment, but I often have the feeling of needing Emi to get her front legs more out in front. I feel it in the change work and also in the medium gaits. She's happy to put her hind legs underneath her, but needs the reminder about the front legs to swing and R E A C H.

Also Flight: Please know that your calm changes continue to inspire us. At this point, that is what on want on request. Today we were not so smooth shifting from canter and counter canter in warm-up to changes in the work set. There was expression! But not so much calm obedience. Sigh. But so it goes as we get aligned and clear!!! Love my little mare's attitude and tolerance of my fumbling.

Hey hey! Congrats, Piedmontfields! Glad that exercise is useful for you guys.

Re: moving out the front legs, I've been there. Biggest lightbulb moment was that the whole of the forehand needs to rotate up and back in order for the front legs to really swing. While the hind legs stepping under is a major step to achieving that, picking up the brisket (so to speak) enables the swing from the elbows down.

Easier said than done, I know, but mainly it's connecting the dots for the horses that they don't just have to sit with the hind end, they also need to provide some power. Dresseur's exercise is helpful there; a variation on that theme is to ask for medium trot or canter on a diagonal, and then develop leg yield. Provides the same illustration of "hey, horse, you really can step more under with thrust over the ground" and can help push the boundary of tipping point of balance just a bit further.

[Chisamba]

Ponichiwa, you just triggered a lightbulb memory.

My first FEI level horse did not have much scope in front. My instructor had me start in shoulder in, then " fly" rush, push , go, on the diagonal, if Sunstorm began to break ( canter/ lose balance) i was to go sideways till gait/ balance restored, then straighten and go forward again until shoulder in the corner after the diagonal.

It worked even though we then had to focus on tempo once the scope had been introduced.

[piedmontfields]

Thank you all for your descriptions and suggestions for "pushing the balance point"/getting the forehand to rotate. I have been taught most of these strategies and had gotten somewhere, but clearly I need to be more dedicated for us to really connect the dots. I think I backed off because it feels weird/wrong to ride to the "rushing" point, but that is what I need to do to show her the edge (then I can rebalance and try again).

[Moutaineer]

Ponichiwa, I know my career demands and riding goals are incompatible. But we have to set the bar high enough to give our Type A personalities something to stress over...

[Chisamba]

Yes its a dressage training forum. However this is a goals and progression thread. However, i can adjust my personal choices without interfering with others preferences, so I shall defer my preference in favor of the whole. Lol.

I will say that what I have really appreciated in these threads on goals, progression and training is the sense of real time / life,/ discovery and progress. I have found them both helpful and inspiring.

I am as inspired by how orienteering helped greenholmeshandy in her quest for left lead canter, as I am by mountaineer and flight and those working on flying changes and stuff in advance of where I am.

I apologise for attempting to keep the thread to my preferences, it is for sure a public bb.

[Ponichiwa]

Yes its a dressage training forum. However this is a goals and progression thread. However, i can adjust my personal choices without interfering with others preferences, so I shall defer my preference in favor of the whole. Lol.

I will say that what I have really appreciated in these threads on goals, progression and training is the sense of real time / life,/ discovery and progress. I have found them both heloful and inspiring.

I am as inspired by how orienteering helped greenholmeshandy in her quest for left lead canter, as I am by mountaineer and flight and those working on flying changes and stuff in advance of where I am.

I apologise for attempting to keep the thread to my preferences, it is for sure a public bb.

For what it's worth, I'm on a similar page. Hints/tips/tricks/commiseration yes, critiques of general training philosophies maybe not so much.

[Flight]

I just had a really good lesson, and I asked about riding my horse rounder and it was stressed about allowing him to be rounder, not making him rounder and I wished I videoed it, as it felt great. We did our usual exercises but concentrated on getting more release and give in the body and allowing it with my hands. If that makes sense.
Also I'm getting much better half passes now. My instructor has always talked about inside leg and outside rein for half passes and I've always been a bit stuck on kicking them over with the outside leg. Today, had him active with my inside leg and they just seemed to stream sideways with much less effort.
I'm hoping this is all a good sign for my competition tomorrow, but as it's my first go at the next level up I know I'll stuff it up with nerves and angst. But, gotta start somewhere!

eta - just found all the other posts! Not sure why they weren't up for me before. I LOVE the discussions during these progress reports, they just seem part of the flow of conversation. Sorry Chisamba! Maybe because Gallops descriptions are very similar to what I'm being taught now, so they are making more sense and everyone's suggestions on the topics just help me to understand it all.

[Dresseur]

Ok, finally back at it, had an all day work session, no phones or computers allowed

So, here are my thoughts.
One, I find the assumption that the horse is being defensive, or that if we seek to make the neck lower for a moment in time, that we are being forceful, interesting. I also find the assumption that we're not seeking to have the horse carrying itself out to the bridle interesting. I don't believe that all resistances are defensiveness - sometimes conformation makes things difficult, or there is an inherent asymmetry that you are working to overcome in the same manner that a physical therapist would. And sometimes, there is a mental issue, incorrect start - whatever. But, my point is - the horse is not always being defensive, and the riders are not being forceful by asking for a lower neck for a moment. And to be clear, I'm talking about the height of the neck - not asking the horse to collapse and bite chests. But some horses do that, and it's not because the rider is abusing them - sometimes the neck is swan-like and flexible and the horse finds it easy to assume that position despite a tactful ride.

Horses are not instantly laterally or even longitudinally supple under a rider, we have to prepare the horse for carrying a rider and systematically address ambidexterity issues or even biomechanical deviations from the ideal. Yes of course the rider is seeking to have the horse steadily out to the bridle, and in order to teach the horse that they can follow the hand and have a malleable neck, we as riders must teach that. And it's not perfect. Neither our responses nor the horse's. So mistakes are allowed and sometimes encouraged to show a different way. All I'm saying is that crap happens when riding and training and learning, and you have to be flexible enough to change things in response to what you are feeling from the horse - because the look can be misleading. But, you have to start somewhere, and that start isn't from perfection, and most of us don't have perfectly conformed purpose bred horses. Sometimes those take a bit of creativity.

Flight... re the halfpass, your teacher is absolutely right re not using too much outside leg. That will bite you in the butt in zig-zags! I ride them more from my inside leg with touches from the outside and when the engine stays in position to drive the half-pass, they take very little effort. And, it's another reason to start from shoulder in, not haunches in (*runs and ducks for cover ) Good luck tomorrow!

[Flight]

Also theory is great but to try and put it into practice is harder, as in knowing what to ask for and how much. I've learned to get the position and kind of wait for the horse to come to me, asking for more and over time the horse can deliver more. It's hard discussing it in words only I think, I've had to see and ride it to understand it better.

Dresseur, yes that's what I've finally discovered! Also I've never heard of starting from haunches in, only SI, so at least I haven't had to unlearn that. Unless you are talking about travers on a diagonal - but I know that vs half pass is a whole other story
Thanks, I'll update tomorrow how we go.

[kande50]

Having a rough couple weeks here. Plugging away at it, but I'm starting to think my training goals and career demands are incompatible.

I think that unless one is driven in such a way that they'd be miserable if they didn't keep up the push to achieve their goals, then trying to do too much does take a lot of the fun out of it.

I don't know what the answer is for anyone else, but if I start questioning my goals too often, then I'll try to modify them. Because at least with the horse part of it, I can always get back to them later if I decide that I was happier when I was pushing harder than I am with a more relaxed schedule. Work is a different story, but work obligations can often be modified, too.

The way I look at it is that either way it's going to be a tradeoff, so if I decide to spend less time riding then I'll feel better about how I'm using my horses, and the amount of other work I'm getting done. (I always have doubts about whether it's fair and good to use horses to achieve my goals, so the easier I am on them the better I feel about what I'm doing with them.)

If, OTOH, I decide to ride more, then I'll feel better about getting closer to achieving my riding goals. And of course, if I want to ride my horses I can always rationalize doing that, so either way works for me.

Right now I'm feeling very good about what an easy life my horses are having.

[kande50]

I apologise for attempting to keep the thread to my preferences, it is for sure a public bb.

It's so easy to just skip any posts that one doesn't find interesting that I can't even imagine why anyone would try to silence others just to avoid having to scroll past.

[Sue B]

Hey Flight, an advantage of learning to use inside leg more during half-pass is that you sit straighter. People who "kick em over" with the outside leg invariably twist hips and shoulders making it almost impossible for the horse to step sideways. At least that is what I have observed over the years. I am so glad for you that you are having so much fun with your ponies. There is a sideways freezing sleet this morning--oh joy.

Chisamba, thank you for your gracious post...

Yes its a dressage training forum. However this is a goals and progression thread. However, i can adjust my personal choices without interfering with others preferences, so I shall defer my preference in favor of the whole. Lol.

I will say that what I have really appreciated in these threads on goals, progression and training is the sense of real time / life,/ discovery and progress. I have found them both helpful and inspiring.

I am as inspired by how orienteering helped greenholmeshandy in her quest for left lead canter, as I am by mountaineer and flight and those working on flying changes and stuff in advance of where I am.

I apologise for attempting to keep the thread to my preferences, it is for sure a public bb.

Khall, still jingling!

It has been forever since I have been able to ride, but I was thinking about the "freeing up the shoulders" thing in reference to getting good medium and extended trots. In si I try to build the power to a more medium trot with the idea that it helps lift him in front and makes the shoulders freer. Perhaps as he grows stronger, this would also be a good idea in hp?

[khall]

Thanks everyone for the jingles for Rip and especially SueB with your lovely post re spring! Here he is his first treatment https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Second one was this morning and he takes it like a champ. No riding or working at all for the time during treatment, 14 days. Still sound on the foot that he impaled on the shoe, thank goodness! Heading to FL to audit Bettina this weekend. Looking forward to it.

Have gotten little riding done with all the vet visits. So far Rip is the only one of the horses on the farm that is actively affected by the syndrome. One of my boarders whose horse is TO with Rip and my filly Joplin does have scaring from his run in with the disease earlier. It is not active though and not impinging any breathing. Jo scoped clean, Rip's sister Gaila scoped clean and his dam Gallie the vet thinks is ok, she has unusual upper airway conformation so he wants to re scope in 6 months. Rip goes back end of the month to see how the stem cell treatment worked.

Did have some training going on, just not riding. Was Jo's first trip in the trailer since being weaned and off the farm with her buddy Dodger. She did great! Hauled, loaded and was a gem at the vet. Gaila also had a first, she has only hauled by herself and is great, but had to haul her with her dam Gallie and she was very bothered by having horse in the trailer. She is low man on the totem pole in the field and gets easily anxious with horses in close proximity. Took us about 20 min to load but she hauled fine and was great at the vet as usual. Loaded like a champ coming home. So some training going on but not towards riding.

Next week will get back in the saddle and going again with Gaila and Gallie (OMG Gaila is FAT!) and back with my filly lunging and prep for starting later possibly. Took her all of second session to get, W, T, halt, change directions and doing so quietly. This filly is going to be fun!!

Good riding all who can and for those who cannot, ack! I feel for you weather wise!! Our winter is not much of a winter, just hoping the peach trees get enough cold for them to be good this year.

[Ryeissa]

I agree with Chisamba, that the "boots on the ground" ideas are most helpful to me. Anyways, a concept that was recently brought up by my trainer is

SLLLLOW power in the lengthenings

and fast! chip! Chip! in the collection moments. (Imagine a sing song voice here)

My horse and I tend to FLY! forward with gusto in the lengthenings but then we don't generate power in the collection. This was a mind-blowing concept, but it really seems to hit home

Ever working on the asymmetry, this is not the most existing work so that is why there isn't much to talk about that you would find interesting.

[kande50]

Ever working on the asymmetry, this is not the most existing work so that is why there isn't much to talk about that you would find interesting.

90% of the work I do is on the asymmetry, because I feel like that needs to improve before moving on. But I do often wonder when I should just accept that he's never going to be as symmetrical as the other horses I ride because he started out more asymmetrical?

Sometimes I go out to ride with the idea that I'm only going to spend a short time working on more flexibility to the left before I move on to something else, but then the whole idea of pushing onward when I don't yet have enough of what I consider to be basic feels all wrong and I go right back to working on getting him straighter.

I actually like the work, and he's not stressed by it because I don't push him much (because he just simply may not be able to do it, or too much could be damaging or have other unwanted side effects), so it is a pleasant workout. It is one of the reasons I don't work with an instructor though, even though it would be handy to have eyes on the ground, because I've never ridden with anyone who was willing to stick with the basic exercises, the ones I'd like to master, before they want to start pushing for more. I think it's just too boring for them to work on the same things for that long, or at least they feel that it's more important to move on to other things even though the basics still need work?

[Imperini]

I had to laugh because I took some video of myself a couple of nights (I would share but it's terrible video because it's just my phone propped up on the side of the arena) and for the first one I thought while I was riding I had a decent working trot but then I watched it was like *tap tap tap* is this thing in slow motion? In any case the next time I rode I kept the previous ride's video in mind and got quite a lot more activity, at one point I felt like I was just flying and when I watched the video I was like ooohh that's what I'm after. So I'm glad I took the video because now I was able to see what I'm looking for matched with the feeling I'm wanting.

As I'm getting more familiar with her I'm recognizing the things that need to happen in order to get her moving properly, she really does require quite a long warm up focusing on stretching and just going forward, and then lots and lots of transitions. The transitions really help get her brain in the game. I also have to remember to trust her and let her go forward as I can be a pretty timid rider and so I am now reminding myself that release is very important. If I do those things I can almost always end on a really good note where she's forward, relaxed, and pretty supple.

[Flight]

Video is so helpful for riding!

Well, yesterday I made it through my medium level tests! (Third level??) Only just though! I was sooooo nervous, because medium was the goal I made myself 8 years ago when I started dressage, and when the day came I really didn't want to stuff it up.

The first test I forgot the way twice, so 2 EOC's. The first one I was so focused on my riding that I had one of those blank moments and just cantered around the arena thinking "I have no idea what I'm meant to be doing!!". The second error I'd totally forgotten the 20m circle where you show a release of the reins. THat's a completely new movement to me and I had trouble remembering it anyway, and I didn't even realise until the judge told me a few movements later. Trouble was, I'd got through the 2 flying changes and I had to go back and do them again. I was thinking "noooo, I can't do them again!".
Anyway got a nice score of 65% so not unhappy with that at all. We only had one major problem with our half pass left where he wanted to just stop and do the flying change, and got stuck behind my leg and did a crow hoppy change. I gave him a whack afterwards and got him going again, so we were right for the rest of the test.

I had about 50mins before my next test and it was so hot, so I hosed my horse off and ran through my test about 10 times before I got back on. He was tired and hot so a lot flatter in that test, but really obedient and tried hard, so again so happy and relieved we go through.

I'll have the vids uploaded with the scores/comments so if anyone wants to have a look let me know and I'll send the links.

Pics!

[Chisamba]

Flight, do they not waive coats when its hot? you two look lovely in the pictures. 65 with errors is pretty darn good! Do you never use a reader? although having a reader is no guarantee, the only time i was eliminated for errors it was because my reader kept reading it wrong, ( and it was the only time i had an 8 in flying change pooh). I would have been better off not having a reader because the one time even though i thought she read it wrong, i did not trust myself and followed her read rather than my thought.

So congratulations on achieving your goal.

[Flight]

Yes, you don't have to wear coats in hot weather but I was being vain and chose to wear mine. It is a really thin one though.
No, I've never really used a reader (we call them callers) as I'm usually by myself and always think I know the test well enough. My partner was there (took vid) and I did consider using him for the first test, but being non horsey I thought he'd be better with the camera
I should be ok and not so nervous for future tests now that I've got through the first go at this level. Or so I'm hoping!