Bronc Dressage

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Chancellor » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:03 pm

Tsavo wrote:If there is no issue with abuse, why are they only limiting them to a few minutes a year or at most "15 trips"??

If it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.


If there is no issue with abuse, why do they limit Grand Prix rides to one a day? Oh, maybe because the horses would get too tired?

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tsavo » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:46 pm

Chancellor wrote:
Tsavo wrote:If there is no issue with abuse, why are they only limiting them to a few minutes a year or at most "15 trips"??

If it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.


If there is no issue with abuse, why do they limit Grand Prix rides to one a day? Oh, maybe because the horses would get too tired?


Are you comparing a few minutes a Y-E-A-R to a seven minute ride a D-A-Y?
Last edited by Tsavo on Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tsavo » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 pm

Hot4Spots wrote:There is no "sinister" reason they are only limited to 12-20 minutes of "work" a year.


These rodeo people VOLUNTEER continuously that these horses only work a few minutes a year. Why do they feel they have to constantly volunteer that if they don't have a consciousness of guilt?

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby kande50 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:28 am

Tsavo wrote:These rodeo people VOLUNTEER continuously that these horses only work a few minutes a year. Why do they feel they have to constantly volunteer that if they don't have a consciousness of guilt?


I don't think it's guilt so much as attempts to reassure the public that the animals used for rodeo are not abused.

Just about everyone who participates in horse sports tries to sanitize what their horses' negative experiences might be, but I think those who are invested in a sport in which it's more obvious that the animals are experiencing aversives need to do more.

Those who are more familiar with horses, and their reactions to aversives, tend to be more aware that rodeo broncs may have it better than horses who are coerced using what I call "stealth aversives", which are likely just as uncomfortable but less obvious to onlookers. Bits are a good example of stealth aversives, because they can be used to inflict considerable discomfort without attracting attention.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tuddy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:35 pm

Tsavo wrote:Are you comparing a few minutes a Y-E-A-R to a seven minute ride a D-A-Y?


:shock:

Yes - it's what we have been doing this whole T-H-R-E-A-D !!!!!!

I don't get it, it's like flogging a dead horse. Numerous people have put forth stories and experience to show you that not all rodeo horses are treated unfairly or with intent of pain.

Folks - am I blind here? What am I missing? Why do I feel that all our voices (of what I thought were of reason) are just feathers in the wind here.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tsavo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:55 pm

Let me try it this way... why is it important to rodeo people to constantly emphasize the horses only work a few minutes a year if there is no underlying issue with the bucking strap?
Last edited by Tsavo on Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tsavo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:57 pm

Let's try this also... Why limit a horse to a few minutes a year of ANYTHING if there is nothing wrong with the activity?? What else in the riding world is limited to a few minutes a Y-E-A-R?

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tsavo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:04 pm

kande50 wrote:I don't think it's guilt so much as attempts to reassure the public that the animals used for rodeo are not abused.


Well are those people going to believe the rodeo people or their lying eyes?

"Descended from a line in a Marx Brothers film, "Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?" is spoken (ironically) by someone who's been caught lying and, instead of admitting it, says the evidence is wrong, as well as the person who's looking right at it."

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/lying

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:27 pm

Im hardly a 'rodeo' person. I have no vested interest in any stock contracter, am no longer married to the PRCA cowboy, And I saw with my own very open honest educated eyes that this rough stock is not abused. You are operating under a misapprehension.

Kande is so right. People are so blind to the suffering of so many performance horses because its "just the way things are" and often people just don't think twice, or question, the practices that break down so many horses.

Rough stock lives outside in a herd, doesn't wear tack, doesn't work hard. Its not a bad life for a horse at all. More natural and species friendly than a lot of our horsekeeping practices.

Do your own scientific trial. Go put a standing wrap around Pete in the cross ties in the area the bucking strap goes. Tighten it as much as a bucking strap. Take photo. Post photo.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby kande50 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:59 pm

Tuddy wrote:Folks - am I blind here? What am I missing? Why do I feel that all our voices (of what I thought were of reason) are just feathers in the wind here.


Go with it, because it's just a discussion. No one has to "win", nor can they because we can't know how the horses feel about any of this. If we were discussing facts the debate would have been over before it started, but because we're offering opinions about something that can't be known everyone just needs to continue to defend their argument and Tsavo needs to continue to defend hers. It's what keeps discussions going and brings out more information, until everyone loses interest and/or moves on to a more interesting topic.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tuddy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:39 pm

kande50 wrote:Go with it, because it's just a discussion. No one has to "win", nor can they because we can't know how the horses feel about any of this. If we were discussing facts the debate would have been over before it started, but because we're offering opinions about something that can't be known everyone just needs to continue to defend their argument and Tsavo needs to continue to defend hers. It's what keeps discussions going and brings out more information, until everyone loses interest and/or moves on to a more interesting topic.


Well said, thank you! :)

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Hot4Spots » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:54 pm

I think the phrase we may be looking for is a quote attributed to Dale Carnegie, but he was quoting someone else (unattributed): "A man convinced against his will is a man of same opinion still."

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Code3 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:49 am

One of the best displays of horsemanship I ever saw was at a PBR event. There was only one horse in the ring used to move the bulls out after the ride. The first horse was clearly very experienced. The cowboy switched horses mid way and the second horse was nervous and fidgety. Watching the cowboy settle the horse, scratch his neck, release the reins and help him relax and succeed in a loud and electric environment (the event was indoors) was worth the price of admission. The cowboy’s timing was impeccable.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby orono » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:19 am

I agree Code 3, watching the pick up horses is like poetry in motion.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Hot4Spots » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:14 am

Many years ago, when I was just out of h.s. and taking weekly hunt-seat lessons, the lesson barn acquired an early teen-age QH Mare who had been used as a rodeo pickup horse. A saddle bronc had tripped while the pickup guy still was holding the halter rope (they usually toss it loose as the bronc goes out the outgate). Bronc and pickup horse and rider went down. Bronc was unhurt, pickup rider bruised, but mare's withers were fractured. She recovered fine, but was understandably less than enthusiastic about her job after that, plus difficult for saddle fit. I got to ride her the first day she became part of the lesson string. I had just purchased my first saddle and it was still pretty stiff - so stiff we couldn't get the leathers on. Oh well, it fit her okay, so I was supposed to ride her in the lesson. What a lovely little horse. She'd never been jumped, but after trotting a few ground poles, we asked her to try an "x" and over she went, without hesitation, and me riding without stirrups (I was young/stupid/crazy - you pick!). By the end of the lesson she was doing 2" to 2"'6"schooling courses. What a sweetheart. When the stable closed years later, the manager moved to another stable. Most of the lesson horses were sold to students or retired, but he took that little mare to his new job as his personal horse.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby orono » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:07 am

With the new post I have reread part of the thread. I wonder why there is so much focus about the bucking strap, when there is a TON of equipment various disciplines use on their horses that can could arguably cause pain or discomfort, and are generally worn for much longer periods of time.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Tuddy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:40 pm

orono wrote:With the new post I have reread part of the thread. I wonder why there is so much focus about the bucking strap, when there is a TON of equipment various disciplines use on their horses that can could arguably cause pain or discomfort, and are generally worn for much longer periods of time.


I've been wondering the same thing this whole time....

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Xanthoria » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:00 pm

How about this piece of equipment?
https://www.beastmasterrodeo.com/steer-saver/

"The Steer Saver is designed to prolong the use of steers for practicing rodeo events. When the steer wants to stop running you use the Steer Saver to keep them running. The Steer Saver is a Remote Electric Stimulation - That Stops 'em Dragging - adds up to 18 months roping life to cattle. Rope Steer, Cutting Cattle, Penning Cattle. 2000 volts of motivation."

2000 volts is enough to make even a bone tired animal keep providing you with lots of fun. YAY.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:06 am

Xanthoria wrote:How about this piece of equipment?
https://www.beastmasterrodeo.com/steer-saver/

"The Steer Saver is designed to prolong the use of steers for practicing rodeo events. When the steer wants to stop running you use the Steer Saver to keep them running. The Steer Saver is a Remote Electric Stimulation - That Stops 'em Dragging - adds up to 18 months roping life to cattle. Rope Steer, Cutting Cattle, Penning Cattle. 2000 volts of motivation."

2000 volts is enough to make even a bone tired animal keep providing you with lots of fun. YAY.

Well we do know of dressage trainers and Arabian halter trainers using shock devices, does not mean it's legal or generally acceptable or even common.

Also common on the seamy side of race horse training, illegal there too.

There are YouTube videos on how to make a horse "buzzer".

Remember the video posted of a spanish trainer buzzing a horse in the round pen.

All horrible, unacceptable illegal, but because one person does it , does that mean the whole industry does too?

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Xanthoria » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:42 pm

Shock collars for dogs have been banned in Wales, and soon other places: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... an-england

I have seen them marketed openly, and commonly, as well as equine shock collars, to prevent negative behaviors. That seems acceptable in the US.

I think if certain groups (myself included) find it unacceptable/illegal to promote the use of shock devices to increase performance (vs correct negative behaviors), such as running faster in a race, or being more fiery in Arabian classes, it's surprising to me that shock devices are manufactured and sold openly on the rodeo circuit to force steers to run. Legally, openly, and apparently acceptably - based on seeing it for sale at several online stores?

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby kande50 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:52 pm

For those who have been zapped by electric fences, which is worse, being hit with a whip, poked with a spur, or getting zapped by an electric fence?

Obviously, it depends on the intensity of the aversive, but an aversive is an aversive is an aversive, and IMO, it makes no sense to try to demonize some while accepting the use of others.

IMO, the issue needs to be about how much and under what circumstances.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Xanthoria » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:14 pm

Hm, yeah... I can see your point.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Hot4Spots » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:57 pm

Xanthoria wrote:How about this piece of equipment?
https://www.beastmasterrodeo.com/steer-saver/

"The Steer Saver is designed to prolong the use of steers for practicing rodeo events. When the steer wants to stop running you use the Steer Saver to keep them running. The Steer Saver is a Remote Electric Stimulation - That Stops 'em Dragging - adds up to 18 months roping life to cattle. Rope Steer, Cutting Cattle, Penning Cattle. 2000 volts of motivation."

2000 volts is enough to make even a bone tired animal keep providing you with lots of fun. YAY.
\

Yeah, that would be illegal at a PRCA recognized rodeo. Sadly, it is unlikely that one can police what people do on and to their own private property.

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Re: Bronc Dressage

Postby Quelah » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:26 pm

Unfortunately most equine disciplines someone is using electricity for more than keeping horses off fences. Not just rodeo and racing, there some well known names in the FEI disciplines that do it too. When the stakes are high, everything gets dirty at the top I've found. Not saying everyone does it, but I've been surprised at who does.

Some of the big bucking critters have a pretty good life. Some probably don't. I know Bushwhacker does. I think he's the most decorated bucking bull in history.He's treated like the rockstar he is. But that guy takes pretty good care of all his stock. His horses get hauled to the same fancy farrier that I go to. I'm in California though, maybe it's different in the other parts.

I think team roping and calf roping are gross though, and i won't defend that.


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