PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

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PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:19 pm

If you're following my Casual Impossible Horse Hunt thread, you know I'm on the lookout for a budget-friendly palomino. I've found one that hits both criteria, but is not local to me and is, naturally, not broke.

Because he's not local, I'm tempted to ask for a PPE without flying out to see him (last-minute flight = avg. PPE price). So, two questions:
1) How much of a PPE do g-you recommend for an unbroke 3yo? I'm guessing flexions and xrays if anything shows up in flexions + hocks just in case. Horse is Welsh x WB, if that at all changes your recommendation.

2) Any recommendations for a good, sensible-but-still-sharp-eyed-for-lameness, honest vet in the Columbus, OH area willing to do a PPE for a long-distance client?

Thanks!

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Fatcat » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:53 pm

I did a PPE on a 3yo horse I hadn't seen. I know own her :) We did flexions, and subsequently xrays based on those flexions. The breeder actually paid for the xrays as she was shocked that she came up off in the flexions. Turned out to be small OCD lesions that the breeder had removed and I bought her.
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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Fatcat » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:55 pm

Oh I forgot to add, I found a great PPE vet for another horse long distance by using the AAEP's Get-a-Vet website:

https://aaep.org/horse-owners/get-dvm
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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:26 pm

My friend who was recently pony shopping found it very useful to do PPEs in advance of traveling. It was shocking how many people with very nice high dollar ponies wouldn't bother to do that before putting the horse not he market. Then she'd show up and they would present a lame pony or big concerns would be revealed with the PPE. So I validate the vet first approach for saving time, money and aggravation.

With ponies, she was especially concerned about hocks and stifles (common challenge points). She had a general cut off for when she would say, that's enough x-rays. For ex., if the vet shows up and the pony is lame, you could just skip the x-rays. She also had the local vet work closely with her regular vet and her trainer's vets.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:54 pm

I will be buying one more horse and I will be insisting on a Lameness Locator exam during the PPE.

Also, it is my understanding that hind flexions are definitely nonsense and front flexions might be also though that isn't as clear.

Good luck.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby texsuze » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:41 pm

The youngest horse I ever considered buying was a 6 y.o. well under saddle. Since it was only a few hours drive, I was present at the PPE and he flexed sound on two different surfaces. I had told the seller and the PPE vet well in advance that even if the flexions looked good, I would continue with x-rays on each foot.

Well, the last pic of the last foot x-rayed showed a gnarly ringbone, front foot. Vet and seller were shocked. I declined to buy the horse. Vet told me later, confidentially, that he felt the horse was a time bomb.

So, you never know. Radiographs certainly add another layer of information to process in the decision-making, but one also needs to know what they will do with that information. I'm one who prefers to have that information.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:44 pm

I did I think 18 radiographs when I bought my horse in 2004. He held up well. I will do all possible podiatry shots plus hock.

No hind flexions.

And of course I will not buy without a lameness Locator exam.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:07 pm

Thank you all for your responses! Greatly appreciate it.

PPE is scheduled. Doing rads of feet and hocks (if the feet are clear). Fingers crossed!

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Nikiwink » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:34 pm

Bit late but after attending a recent seminar id also xray c6 c7.

Still contraversal but a sharon may davis autopsys horse and studys anatomy etc. Shes finding 30-40% of the horses autopsied have deformities here which lead to issues under saddle. She has numerous papers published and others are starting to replicate her work.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:52 pm

Nikiwink wrote:Bit late but after attending a recent seminar id also xray c6 c7.

Still contraversal but a sharon may davis autopsys horse and studys anatomy etc. Shes finding 30-40% of the horses autopsied have deformities here which lead to issues under saddle. She has numerous papers published and others are starting to replicate her work.


How do anomalies at the last two levels in the neck manifest at which issues under saddle?

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Xanthoria » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:58 pm

I would now add a PSSM test and basic neuro exam to PPE for me. Sadly the PSSM1 test is the only one that can be done w hair - the PSSM2+ are at least a blood test, and that can take a while...

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby khall » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:09 pm

Xan I agree, especially depending on what breed you are looking at and prevalence of PSSM in that breed. Equiseq is doing the testing for PSSM2 and the different variants, not sure how long it takes. I would also add in DSLD, found in some WB lines, TBs and really many different breeds. Often does not manifest until later in life:( COTH had a couple of threads dedicated to this issue. When did you figure out Baby Bronto had shivers? I don't know when that typically manifests, I do know it is from a spinal cord lesion.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:14 pm

Is there a genetic test (hair, blood) for DSLD? I thought it could only be diagnosed with biopsy, which is a pretty invasive procedure for a PPE.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby StraightForward » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:30 am

Would you be buying completely sight-unseen? I've thought about how I would do long-distance buying in the future, and I think I might do a basic PPE, and if all is well, schedule a trip out to see the horse with a more extensive PPE while I'm there. Last year I went and saw a horse in Nebraska, came home and scheduled the PPE. Talked to the vet and told him the list of rads I wanted only IF the basic PPE was all good, and to CALL ME before proceeding if anything was amiss. Day of PPE, vet calls me and says, well, horse was lame on hard ground one direction, sound on soft and other direction, radiographs within normal limits, blah blah blah. Umm... so you said horse was lame and you proceeded to radiographs without calling me? Yes, they tried to bill me for about a thousand in radiographs after documenting the horse as lame. It took a couple days to get those removed from my bill. This was from a university vet hospital that the owner went a couple hours out of her way to haul the horse to. I was not impressed.

Anyway, I would add stifles to your list, and possibly knees. With my research before buying my warmblood, those were the likely places to find OCD lesions in an young horse.

I would line up my own vet or another trusted vet and notify them up-front that you have a local vet who will be reviewing your radiographs. I've been sent some really shoddy ones that were essentially useless for diagnosing anything. You shouldn't have to pay for those.
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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Xanthoria » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:39 am

I am not a vet but when I go to see a horse I check the teeth, check the back for soreness, and do my own flexions and trot on hard ground. I have seen a number of horses come up lame or sore that way.

I did do a long distance PPE once, vs flying out to see the horse first. Told the vet very clearly I was not into paying a full vet check on a horse with flexions that are off. Horse was lame. No sale.

I don't believe clean flexions = sound horse necessarily though, and I have had my vet lunge a horse on hard ground a lot more than I ever would... only for it to eventually calm down and start bobbing (not hours - we're talking minutes here)

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby khall » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:22 pm

Ponichiwa no there is not a genetic test yet for DSLD and the biopsy is questionable on it's usefulness. What I would be looking at was the conformation of the immediate family if you can and look at bloodlines. I know it is found in many different breeds and I am sure those bloodlines are known. COTH has a thread on WB stallion that passes it on.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby exvet » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:00 pm

While this may be too late, long distance PPEs, especially without being present can be and are often done being video taped. I've had it done on cobs I've sold to others who were not present. Out of curiosity, what are the welsh bloodlines. For me it's always paid off to know the bloodlines in order to know what to anticipate as possible issues.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Thanks for the feedback, all. PPE is this afternoon! I've got my vet on standby to do a second review of the rads (if we end up taking them).

This horse is more Welsh than anything else, and as far as I can tell there's not a high incidence of PSSM or DSLD in the welsh world. CA, yes. However, sire tested negative.

Welsh side is Smoke Tree Dragon Tail.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:26 pm

Is it this pony? Prim

https://www.orchardhillponies.com/young ... m-irl4jcal

I would ask for an offical measurement. These ponies are small.

https://www.facebook.com/dhsfarms/photo ... =3&theater

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Snork » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:41 pm

Ponichiwa, Smoke Tree Dragon Tail is only 12.2. I definitely second asking for an official measurement.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:42 pm

Good google-fu! This one is a full sibling. 3yo, currently measuring 15hh as per seller (but vet will confirm).

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby khall » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:19 pm

I'm pretty sure it is Teddy https://www.facebook.com/pg/dhsfarms/ph ... 3196000463 Good looking youngster there!

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:52 pm

khall wrote:I'm pretty sure it is Teddy https://www.facebook.com/pg/dhsfarms/ph ... 3196000463 Good looking youngster there!

Yes, he's quite beautiful. The thing is that it isn't just height that matters, but substance. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this pony is too small for Ponichiwa. But then, I'm a stickler for 'suitability' of rider to horse. Especially a rider too big for a horse.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby exvet » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Good luck and an official measurement would be a must in my book. Shouldn't have to worry on the welsh side for any 'other' issues especially if this is already a gelding but MC's point on substance is definitely valid. They are less likely to take up a ton of leg like some other lines.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:59 pm

Feedback on substance is noted, although as a late 2yo there's still plenty of time to add bulk. I'm not very tall-- 5'4" is generous-- but most of my height is legs and I do have more "substance" than I'd like (darn easy keeper + desk job). Working on it.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby silk » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:10 pm

Tsavo wrote:
Nikiwink wrote:Bit late but after attending a recent seminar id also xray c6 c7.

Still contraversal but a sharon may davis autopsys horse and studys anatomy etc. Shes finding 30-40% of the horses autopsied have deformities here which lead to issues under saddle. She has numerous papers published and others are starting to replicate her work.


How do anomalies at the last two levels in the neck manifest at which issues under saddle?


The malformations that Sharon is seeing in those two vertebrae can cause issues with muscling (asymmetrical), tendon attachments, and nerve channels. They can be related to problems under saddle - specifically the ability to use the legs correctly - and, a horse with these malformations is skeletally crooked and will never travel the same to the left as it does to the right.

Additionally, the nuchal ligament lamellae in domestic horses are missing from C6 and C7, sometimes T1 (and usually only very few on C5) so those vertebrae are not supported the way nature intended. Combine that with unequal muscles due to vertebrae malformation and you have yourself a very wonky horse.

Nikiwink, we had a C6 on the table with Sharon only two weeks ago. He also had no nuchal ligament lamellae on C5, C6, or C7, and the fibres from T1 were connected to T2 instead of going to the nuchal ligament.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:20 pm

Did they only study horses who had problems under saddle?

Also, was there a correlation between problems under saddle and rider expertise separate and apart from the anatomical fndings?

I will look for these papers and see if I can understand how she came to her conclusions.

Thanks.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:07 pm

Update on the PPE: Currently measures 14.3 1/2 at nearly 3yo and, as per the vet, "could stand to gain some weight". Needing weight gain is not a normal problem in Casa Ponichiwa. Still pending rads on feet.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:26 pm

I'm confused about the pending rads. Doesn't the vet have a digital machine? Why are the feet rads pending and the other rads not pending?

One more thing about horse size. I don't know what size saddle you need, but with the smaller horses they often can't accomodate a large seat saddle w/o going past the 18th rib. I'm dealing with this now with my short backed mare, and ending up riding in a saddle that isn't large enough for me. It's a real problem and something I didn't think about beforehand.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Nikiwink » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 am

Garr lost my post.

Thanks Silk you explained it better than i could.

Tsavo no, not limited to problem horses, tho i have no doubt its skewed that way given the nature of the work. Lots of ages, sexes and breeds. Her work is also catching the eye of insurance companies so i expect more research will start happening if it gives them an legit out.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby silk » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:24 am

Tsavo wrote:Did they only study horses who had problems under saddle?

Also, was there a correlation between problems under saddle and rider expertise separate and apart from the anatomical fndings?

I will look for these papers and see if I can understand how she came to her conclusions.

Thanks.


Without wishing to derail the OPs thread, try Jane Clothier's blog for some explanations (there is more than one post on the subject): https://thehorsesback.com/tag/sharon-may-davis/

Cat Walker also has some brilliant information on the subject, with clearly labelled photo examples: http://www.foundationsofsoundness.com/c ... oked-neck/ <- that one has links to articles published in the Journals of Equine Vet Science.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby silk » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:25 am


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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:10 am

Silk thanks so much for those references. Saved me some time. :-)

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:25 am

musical comedy wrote:I'm confused about the pending rads. Doesn't the vet have a digital machine? Why are the feet rads pending and the other rads not pending?

One more thing about horse size. I don't know what size saddle you need, but with the smaller horses they often can't accomodate a large seat saddle w/o going past the 18th rib. I'm dealing with this now with my short backed mare, and ending up riding in a saddle that isn't large enough for me. It's a real problem and something I didn't think about beforehand.


My fault for lack of clarity. Was in text communication with the vet and updated partway through the PPE. My vet has the rads and will provide an assessment in the morning.

I’m all too familiar with short back saddle fitting. Kiwi is a ~14.3hh GRP, and she’s got the shoulder cutback and rear relief panels to prove it. Her saddle doesn’t go past the 18th, though, so we’re good.

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Re: PPEs: How far do you go? (And does anyone here have a rec for a vet in Columbus, OH?)

Postby StraightForward » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:55 pm

Hope you get good news from your vet this morning!
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