Shoulder-in

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Shoulder-in

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:14 pm

I was reading above where Demi's trainer is riding Shoulder-in and Haunches-in the whole long side. Do all of you do that? My trainer has never asked for the whole long side. Then I remembered reading this. Again, it's just one pro's opinion, but it's a pro that I respect.

Per Janet Foy:
"Don’t stay in the shoulder-in for too long. There is no test that has the exercise ridden for more than half the long side (30 meters)."

https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/j ... houlder-in

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:26 pm

Yes, I use the entire long side. Not at first, and there are many times that I'll break it up with a circle or 6, but I use it for it's strength building and collection aspects, not because I'm only trying to get through half of a long side for a show. I remember reading that article and my impression was that she was writing that for a horse beginning shoulder in, but that could have been my own experiences clouding how I was reading that.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:38 pm

Yes sometimes the whole long side, sometimes half a long side thru the corner to the short side and even a figure 8 shoulder in, counter shoulder in.

It depends on the degree of training and fitness of the horse.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:45 pm

I am similar to Dresseur and Chisamba in how I work shoulder-in and other lateral movements with a more mature horse. However, I would work differently with a green horse or one just learning shoulder-in. It is a developmental process for sure, and the shoulder-in in development is not an FEI shoulder-in!

I do think Janet Foy is very helpful at clarifying training and test prep for riders. In this case, I believe she is talking about training/developing an understanding of shoulder-in (vs. using it as a strengthening or suppling tool).

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:53 pm

Yes, I do, and so do trainers I respect.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby demi » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:58 pm

My trainer has been riding Rocky for 8 1/2 months, once a week for the first few months and then every other week since then. She started SI several months ago and just did a few strides at first. Yesterday was the first time she did the whole long side and it was very steady. The angle was the same throughout.She has mirrors and I could see her glance up to look. I commented on how nice it was and she just smiled. Several months ago she mentioned that lateral work is easy for Rocky.

The article you referenced looks good. I just read through quickly but bookmarked it to go back for a closer look tonight. Thanks for sharing.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:42 pm

demi wrote:My trainer has been riding Rocky for 8 1/2 months, once a week for the first few months and then every other week since then. She started SI several months ago and just did a few strides at first. Yesterday was the first time she did the whole long side and it was very steady. The angle was the same throughout.She has mirrors and I could see her glance up to look. I commented on how nice it was and she just smiled. Several months ago she mentioned that lateral work is easy for Rocky.

The article you referenced looks good. I just read through quickly but bookmarked it to go back for a closer look tonight. Thanks for sharing.
I think if you really add up how many rides your trainer has done on Rocky, it isn't as many as you're recalling. Based on your posts, which I read, there is no way that mare can be fit and strong enough to be working shoulder-in (and especially haunches in) a whole long side. I :shock: when I read that. You miss a lot of riding time and the mare was off regular work for a good while. Whatever...I've noticed several people on here have very inconsistent riding schedules and then when they do ride, they proceed to work on things as though the horses never had time off. Russian roulette with soundness imo.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:29 pm

I would do SI for as long as the quality was good. That was often not the full length of the long side. I will also straighten even if the quality is good as a reward similar to jumping off if my horse is being stellar.

I ride 5 days a week religiously and am contemplating adding another day because my horse is dealing with arthritis and benefits from the work. Plus it is beyond gratifying to see improvement in him in near real time. This, plus his bright attitude towards work, makes him very fun to ride.

Moutaineer
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1183
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:25 pm

You are assuming the long side of the arena is the full 60 meters.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:44 pm

I also assumed when people answer that the reference is SI along 60 m. If the length is not that I assume they would qualify their response.

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Flight » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:16 pm

Yes, I do but may vary the bend as I go or do a counter SI and back etc. 60m.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:02 am

MC, your comment/ concern makes me think of another topic I'd like to explore re: conditioning and fitness.

Given that Demi says that her mare finds lateral work easy with her trainer, I believe her, and believe the description of the work's quality. It might not be show quality, but it sure sounds like it is on the developmental path! I do believe if you have had WBs or similar types, it can be shocking how easy lateral work is for the short-body types (whole different feeling and less of an organizational challenge).

galopp
Herd Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby galopp » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:08 am

I never would do SI the entire long side except perhaps as a rider learning how to use the aids (and even then with voltes or circles added in the middle or so). And to do it until it fails (which is likely with a less experienced horse) would be problematic. I guess it depends upon what the rider is trying to do therapeutically. Perhaps changing to renvers is more useful to exercise the one hind leg different (ie inside hind stepping under mass in a different manner). Just because a horse seems to find something easy does not mean do it for extended periods of time. mho

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby demi » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:24 am

musical comedy wrote: ...I think if you really add up how many rides your trainer has done on Rocky, it isn't as many as you're recalling. Based on your posts, which I read, there is no way that mare can be fit and strong enough to be working shoulder-in (and especially haunches in) a whole long side...



I reallly added up how many rides my trainer has on Rocky. She’s ridden her 17 times. The first time was Oct. 16,2017. That is about 32 week in total. In that time I’ve averaged 3.6 rides or lunges a week, and adding in the trainers rides Rocky has averaged 4.09 times per week in that period.

My trainer knows what and how much I am doing with the horse on my own. If she felt the horse was able to do a full long side (yes, 60 meters) in SI and HI then I trust her. You have never seen the horse, you don’t know her fitness level, you don’t know my trainer.

I don’t am not happy here any more. You win.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:39 am

piedmontfields wrote: It is a developmental process for sure, and the shoulder-in in development is not an FEI shoulder-in!


SI is second level, not FEI, yes?

I think of being in SI like being pregnant... either you are or you aren't. Less would be varying degrees of SF, not SI in my opinion.

Also I am of the camp that the 4 track is more therapeutic than the 3 track.

ETA I do ride the 3 track also.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:59 am

I know many people think of training in religious terms ("this is okay" "this is not okay"!). I don't. I think seeing the impact and effect on the specific horse is important. That said, reflection is also useful, which is why I appreciate critique, comment and questions on specific activities.

Tsavo: Of course shoulder-in is not "tested" the same way at higher levels, but it sure looks different on a PSG horse than a 2nd level horse :-D

p.s. I have done 100 m of shoulder-in before (in fields). Get yourself a bat-wing tractor or a herd of running deer off to your right and you might, too!!!

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:16 am

I think galopp once said she doesn't see too many correct SIs until PSG. This is what I mean about either being or not being a SI. A correct SI looks the same in second and PSG as far as I know.

The SI example is one that highlights that the training scale is for the horse and is very different from a scale for the rider that incorporates the same idea in increasing difficulty.

S. Peters also said he thinks HP is one of the most difficult movements to ride yet it is in third. That's aside from the inscrutability of this comment because HP is travers which is second level.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:25 am

I think it's the equivalency of bend and activity in shoulder-in that is not "well demonstrated" until the horse is well beyond 2nd level. It's just so typical in 2nd and 3rd level tests to see quite a lot of sidedness.

A good half pass is hard to create/develop (it take time, strength, suppleness + ideally some talent). A 3rd level half pass, not so much. I just see the movements on a developmental trajectory (ideally). They are not just one thing/one set of architecture--they change as the horse develops.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:49 am

I do think that MC's comments on Ricky's training verge on stalking and attacking. I would be shocked if someone kept track of my posts enough to remember how many times my horse has been ridden in a year and criticize the duration of a SI.(which may have been SF) or more sideways.

Wrt SI. I prefer 3 track SI. I dont believe 4 track is more beneficial. So different opinions are as common as there are riders, and that's ok.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:19 am

piedmontfields wrote:A good half pass is hard to create/develop (it take time, strength, suppleness + ideally some talent). A 3rd level half pass, not so much. I just see the movements on a developmental trajectory (ideally). They are not just one thing/one set of architecture--they change as the horse develops.


It is very easy to show geometry-wise that a "steep" HP has the identical bend as a second level travers. The potential difficulty and what Peters is probably referencing is "seeing" the line of travel without benefit of the rail whilst keeping the correct bend and trajectory. Laying rails on the diagonal proves even "steep" HP is identical to travers. Less steep HP is baby travers.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:21 am

Chisamba wrote:Wrt SI. I prefer 3 track SI. I dont believe 4 track is more beneficial. So different opinions are as common as there are riders, and that's ok.


I agree. This isn't a science. We are all just guessing based on our feelings. There is no hard data.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:45 am

Tsavo wrote:
piedmontfields wrote:A good half pass is hard to create/develop (it take time, strength, suppleness + ideally some talent). A 3rd level half pass, not so much. I just see the movements on a developmental trajectory (ideally). They are not just one thing/one set of architecture--they change as the horse develops.


It is very easy to show geometry-wise that a "steep" HP has the identical bend as a second level travers. The potential difficulty and what Peters is probably referencing is "seeing" the line of travel without benefit of the rail whilst keeping the correct bend and trajectory. Laying rails on the diagonal proves even "steep" HP is identical to travers. Less steep HP is baby travers.



But its also relatively easy to ride a bent neck straight body travers. And by the way, I totally agree that they'reis no more bend in HP than in correct travers or SI.

Some languages do not differentiate between HP and Travers, they simply say one on the rail and the other on the diagonal

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:48 am

Chisamba wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
piedmontfields wrote:A good half pass is hard to create/develop (it take time, strength, suppleness + ideally some talent). A 3rd level half pass, not so much. I just see the movements on a developmental trajectory (ideally). They are not just one thing/one set of architecture--they change as the horse develops.


It is very easy to show geometry-wise that a "steep" HP has the identical bend as a second level travers. The potential difficulty and what Peters is probably referencing is "seeing" the line of travel without benefit of the rail whilst keeping the correct bend and trajectory. Laying rails on the diagonal proves even "steep" HP is identical to travers. Less steep HP is baby travers.



But its also relatively easy to ride a bent neck straight body travers. And by the way, I totally agree that they'reis no more bend in HP than in correct travers or SI.

Some languages do not differentiate between HP and Travers, they simply say one on the rail and the other on the diagonal


Totally agree!

galopp
Herd Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby galopp » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:00 am

HP changes through the levels because it is done on a steeper diagonal as one progresses up the levels, and with quicker changes of bend, as one goes up the levels. And as far as SI, the degree of collection is certainly more (with greater impulsion and articulation) in fei than it is at second. And as far as SI tracks, they relate to the degree of bending (2 1/2 tracks of shoulder fore which is the first step onto 20m circles; 3 tracks is the bend of a 10m circle, and 4 tracks is the bend of a 6m volte in trot, and 8m volte in canter).

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:54 am

Except that many doing SI in 4 tracks are basically doing a leg yield on the rail and are not in volte position.

Josette
500 post plus club
Posts: 997
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Josette » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:23 am

Chisamba wrote:I do think that MC's comments on Ricky's training verge on stalking and attacking. I would be shocked if someone kept track of my posts enough to remember how many times my horse has been ridden in a year and criticize the duration of a SI.(which may have been SF) or more sideways.


I read that MC was questioning a fitness level for performing this exercise. Many of us are daily readers of the these posts but that does not make us stalkers. :roll:

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:55 am

galopp wrote:HP changes through the levels because it is done on a steeper diagonal as one progresses up the levels, and with quicker changes of bend, as one goes up the levels.


Yes but the steepest one has the identical bend of a correct travers. HP on the longer diagonal has less bend than a correct travers per my geometrical calculations.

And as far as SI, the degree of collection is certainly more (with greater impulsion and articulation) in fei than it is at second.


Yes but the ones in second are still SI, not baby SI or SF.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:19 pm

Josette wrote:
Chisamba wrote:I do think that MC's comments on Ricky's training verge on stalking and attacking. I would be shocked if someone kept track of my posts enough to remember how many times my horse has been ridden in a year and criticize the duration of a SI.(which may have been SF) or more sideways.


I read that MC was questioning a fitness level for performing this exercise. Many of us are daily readers of the these posts but that does not make us stalkers. :roll:


Whatever you choose to believe. Multiple criticisms on multiple threads making a person feel unwelcome is what I see.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:37 pm

Chisamba wrote:Whatever you choose to believe. Multiple criticisms on multiple threads making a person feel unwelcome is what I see.
Listen up Chisamba. First off, you're not a moderator. Second, making a less-than-positive comment about a horse, a person's riding, a person's training is not 'attacking'. Although, this group seems to think anything other than compliments are forbidden. There hasn't been any person put up something recently that I had felt like commenting on. It's just a coincidence that I commented on one particular poster's posts a couple times recently. You've got to be kidding that I would spend my time 'stalking' anyone. I read the posts and, if quizzed, you'ld be surprised at how much I remember about what each poster writes. Unlike some others, that are mainly interested in posting their own stuff and bypass what others have to say.

My focus is on keeping horses sound. I have a 'thing' about people that do not ride regularly, give horses a couple weeks off, and then go out to a show, clinic, school collected movement, galopp through a corn field, etc. etc. Usually, I want to post something about it, but I restrain myself and just get up and walk away. Other times, I read something that hits a hot button, and I say what I think.

If you notice, other than me, hardly anyone puts up any dressage topic that get activity. It's usually just that goals thread.

Chisamba, if you have a problem with me, take it to PM and don't clutter up this thread.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:47 pm

I will just add that once you experience real stalking, everything else just pales. Nothing struck me here as stalking but everyone has their own opinion which is necessarily going to be calibrated against any serious stalking they have experienced. Serious extends into real life which has happened. The only thing more egregious than stalking is moderator facilitated stalking. Gaslighting is a sign of incompetent moderation and inhuman cruelty.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby kande50 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:54 pm

I met someone on another group who was a victim of what I think was stalking by a bunch of computer nerds! Her stalkers went so far as to threaten her and her family, and her only recourse was to get off the internet whenever they found her again. Can't remember her name right now, but that was the strangest case of stalking I'd ever read about. The theory was that it was motivated by some kind of weird jealousy, or competition, or something like that?

And to get back on topic, I think that a reasonably safe duration of any exercise has to be determined by those who are actually there watching the horse work. But ultimately, the owner has to decide how much work is prudent, and if they need to intervene to protect their horse.

Coming from where I'm coming from, I see and hear a lot of descriptions that trigger a "how sad for that poor horse" reaction, but I seldom comment simply because I can't know how much the horse is suffering, or if the work is going to damage him.

mari
Herd Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:57 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby mari » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:35 pm

I sometimes ride a SI the whole long side. I don't think it's much more strenuous than a LY across the long diagonal. Of course, if the horse was struggling to maintain the position in any way, we would not be doing it.

Our current mission is the transitions between lateral positions. Odie understands being put into SI, and then travelling. So on Monday my instructor had us start SI, then straighten, then back to SI. Good heavens the second one was just consistently crap. Turns out (surprise, surprise), that he was only paying minimal attention to my aids. Sharpened myself up a bit, had a bit of a lecture about body positioning, and then we could do 3 nice ones in a row.
The aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory, but progress. ~ Joseph Joubert

AmityBee
Herd Member
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:28 am
Contact:

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby AmityBee » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:35 am

Hah, kill me now.

Not only do I do SI for the whole long side, I do it around the corner, the short side and along another long side as well. I also do SI/HI/SI/HI... only for a couple of steps each all around the arena. At the walk we don't have any issues to keep up a good SI, at the trot I'm not quite there yet, so I usually only do SI as long a he can keep it up cleanly. So far that's about 20m-30m, before I need "refresh" the SI by doing a circle or something before going into the exercise again.

I also do SI/halt (in SI) SI/halt at the walk and trot all round the arena (to help with the idea of half steps and, at some point get to piaffe).

I trust my trainer. It has helped a lot with my pony's specific issues. We always work it short intervalls or sets with breaks on the buckle or even at the halt inbetween. Works for us. *shrug*

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:33 am

I actually read two translations of Francois Robichon de la Gueriniere s book. While I wouldn't recommend all his practices which were some bizarre and outdated, I came to understand that he develops every movement by starting it and finishing it in shoulder in. Placing the horses inside front leg and inside hind leg in alignment is a goal. Shoulder in, shoulder fore, correct circles, are all building exercises to that goal.

Galopp, you had me ride 3 consecutive shoulder in, shoulder out figure 8 in a clinic in the same position That is possibly more than one long side.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby kande50 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:40 am

I have no evidence to back it up, but feel like changing the nature of an exercise frequently, whether it's changing the bend or changing the direction, has the potential to be less damaging than doing the same thing repeatedly, even if the repetitious exercise is done for a shorter duration than the varied one.

I think a good deal of the damage dressage horses incur is of the repetitive stress injury kind, and that long durations of the same exercise are the most damaging.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:43 am

Wrt stalking, I apologise, I overstated the case. I do think that some one was being picked on specifically over more than one thread on more than one topic.

We like to pretend we are all convivial and supportive but there are certain pairs of posters that you can guarantee I'd ons says something, the second is going to disagree and it's going to flare.

Most of these seem equally adversarial but on this occasion I believe it was encouraging a pile on.

You think I'm wrong so I will bow to the majority. Musical Comedy, they say I got it wrong, so even though emotionally to me it feels nqr, I am often mistaken. I apologise.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:45 am

kande50 wrote:I have no evidence to back it up, but feel like changing the nature of an exercise frequently, whether it's changing the bend or changing the direction, has the potential to be less damaging than doing the same thing repeatedly, even if the repetitious exercise is done for a shorter duration than the varied one.

I think a good deal of the damage dressage horses incur is of the repetitive stress injury kind, and that long durations of the same exercise are the most damaging.


When you trail ride you do the same thing repetitively for far longer than a dressage arena.

galopp
Herd Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby galopp » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:18 pm

When things are repeated more than once, or for a longer period of time, it is (as I said earlier) often for educating the rider as to what is correct (esp in a clinic situation). But that is not for the horse's training but for the rider's learning. And done in walk, it is less problematic because there is not suspension. (And if things are sustained, there must be walk breaks.)

Trail riding encompasses many different things, does it not?

What exercises that de la G does are outdated? They were all purposeful.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 pm

kande50 wrote:I have no evidence to back it up, but feel like changing the nature of an exercise frequently, whether it's changing the bend or changing the direction, has the potential to be less damaging than doing the same thing repeatedly, even if the repetitious exercise is done for a shorter duration than the varied one.

I think a good deal of the damage dressage horses incur is of the repetitive stress injury kind, and that long durations of the same exercise are the most damaging.
I agree 100%, but like you say, there is no evidence to back it up. When it comes right down to it, there isn't much evidence to back anything up. All studies, even scientific ones can be skewed. Sometimes it comes down to common sense or personal opinion. Any exercise performed repeatedly by a human or horse that is strenuous, will eventually become painful or result in injury. The exercises need to be done just enough to build strength (which involves some tearing of muscle fiber from what I understand).

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby demi » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:40 pm

Chisamba wrote:Wrt stalking, I apologise, I overstated the case. I do think that some one was being picked on specifically over more than one thread on more than one topic.

We like to pretend we are all convivial and supportive but there are certain pairs of posters that you can guarantee I'd ons says something, the second is going to disagree and it's going to flare.

Most of these seem equally adversarial but on this occasion I believe it was encouraging a pile on.

You think I'm wrong so I will bow to the majority. Musical Comedy, they say I got it wrong, so even though emotionally to me it feels nqr, I am often mistaken. I apologise.


Chisamba, I appreciate that you openly said what you thought. Only you, myself, and one other person (by PM) felt that MC has unfairly targeted my training. Repeatedly, over several threads. Of course not every one would even notice, but I noticed because I am the target. For several months I have tried not to fuel her fires. While I don't feel it was actual stalking, it was still CREEPY. And it hurt.

I have corrected her false accustations in this particular thread by giving the facts about how many times and how long my trainer has worked with my horse and how many times I have ridden or worked my horse. And those facts were not even acknowledged by MC. She just continued in her belief that my horse is not in condition to do what I and my trainer ask of her. And she continued to make it seem that I was going to lame my horse.

I don't have the time or energy defend myself against false accusations. I never claimed to be anything other than an amateur. I have a trainer that is highly qualified and truly loves horses. I don't need to defend myself or my trainer. This board has a number of rider/trainers that I respect and enjoy, and would miss if I stop participating in DDBB. But even that is just not worth dealing with someone who continually picks me apart and tries to get others to help her. Of course, I know I can block MC, but that seems like a poor solution to the problem. I am I don't know of a good solution but I am not going to worry about it. This will pass one way or another.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:54 pm

Demi, I think you were very kind and clear in your responses on this thread. MC, you often write in a way that makes me think you are not loaded with EQ. Perhaps you are malicious, but you come across to me as simply, well, simple.

I'm sure people think I am laming my horse because I ride her across various terrain, sometimes at all gaits. Not to mention the fact that I don't inject her (as yet) in any joints. Nor do I think of my horse as "an investment"! (What a joke! I invest elsewhere...so that I can throw money away on the horse!!!)

I like the various POVs on this board. If someone wants to express that "this is the only right way to do things", they had better be prepared to hear a critique of that POV! Some people truly struggle with that process. Others embrace it.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:50 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Demi, I think you were very kind and clear in your responses on this thread. MC, you often write in a way that makes me think you are not loaded with EQ. Perhaps you are malicious, but you come across to me as simply, well, simple.
Thanks for the free shrink diagnosis. I don't think I'm malicious. I worked 30 years at Att-Bell labs. I had a managerial position with 20 subordinates (various cultures) at one time. I had excellent performance reviews noting how well I got along with others.

I'm sure people think I am laming my horse because I ride her across various terrain, sometimes at all gaits. Not to mention the fact that I don't inject her (as yet) in any joints. Nor do I think of my horse as "an investment"! (What a joke! I invest elsewhere...so that I can throw money away on the horse!!!)
You see, this is a good example of picking up on a word I used that I didn't mean in that context. Of course I don't buy horses as 'investments'. I think you know exactly what I meant by that. Anything I buy, I want to take as good of care of it as I can so that it will last.

I like the various POVs on this board. If someone wants to express that "this is the only right way to do things", they had better be prepared to hear a critique of that POV! Some people truly struggle with that process. Others embrace it.
I don't think I've ever said that my opinion was the only right way to do things. It's an opinion, often based on experience and sometimes based on the opinions of others I respect, which others may not respect.

What is the point to people here putting up videos and pics or giving clinic reports if they don't want feedback? Why does that feedback have to be positive or why does someone have to polish up their words because someone is going to get their feelings hurt. We should be stronger emotionally than that.

I do think Demi and others should put me on ignore and don't quote me if you don't want to here what I have to say. That does solve your problem. And what a wimp that had to PM demi to support rather than doing so on the open forum.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby kande50 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:17 pm

demi wrote:Of course, I know I can block MC, but that seems like a poor solution to the problem. I don't know of a good solution but I am not going to worry about it. This will pass one way or another.


If you think someone is stalking you, ignore them. As long as they don't stalk you in real life it doesn't matter, as it's their problem, not yours.

If they stalk you in real life (threats, etc.) get the police involved.

IMO, blocking works, not because it stops the attacks (whether perceived or real) but because who needs the negativity?

I seldom read posts from certain posters in the evening when I'm tired because I know I'm not going to perceive them as pleasant, and that's when I might have a moment of weakness and air the thoughts that cross my mind.

I may read some of those kinds of posts in the morning when I'm less likely to be annoyed by them, or not, depending.

Something I learned way back on usenet is that I can't control other posters, nor would I want to, but I do have the power to limit what I read.

And BTW, demi, I truly do appreciate the effort you put into being pleasant to everyone, as it sets a good example for how one can express their opinions without coming across as rude and overbearing. And of course, you're not the only one who has mastered that skill.

Sue B
500 post plus club
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:55 pm
Location: Spud country (Idaho)

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Sue B » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:57 pm

Demi, I'll defend you. I don't have MC on ignore but I take everything she says with a grain of salt, given that she has a new(ish) horse, never posts about it or its training process and has never posted any pictures. Those of us brave enough to post pictures and/or video open ourselves (and our trainers) up to criticism. Sometimes folks are on-point and other times they are downright rude. So be it, just remember there are many of us who benefit from the few who share their training journey. We would even benefit from MC! ;)

Tuddy
500 post plus club
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm
Location: Zehner, SK Canada

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tuddy » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:30 pm

musical comedy wrote: And what a wimp that had to PM demi to support rather than doing so on the open forum.


Name calling. Nice. Because that will really encourage the quiet bystander to really want to engage in conversations in the open now.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:09 pm

musical comedy wrote: Thanks for the free shrink diagnosis. I don't think I'm malicious.


Hey, you're welcome! I don't think you are deliberately malicious either, but it can come across as such in this environment.

I You see, this is a good example of picking up on a word I used that I didn't mean in that context. Of course I don't buy horses as 'investments'. I think you know exactly what I meant by that. Anything I buy, I want to take as good of care of it as I can so that it will last.


I try to do the same with my animals. But I do read and pay attention to people's words and "investment" was a striking choice. That is some of the challenge of communicating in writing on a board rather than through other forms.

What is the point to people here putting up videos and pics or giving clinic reports if they don't want feedback? Why does that feedback have to be positive or why does someone have to polish up their words because someone is going to get their feelings hurt. We should be stronger emotionally than that.


I will share photos and video once I figure out my Soloshot! I suspect that I can count on you to tell me what you think without any regard to my feelings or future reactions. Is this a good thing? Eh, maybe, maybe not. It works for some people. However, it does not work for all. Frankly, I don't know enough about your day-to-day training and experience to put your input into context. I have a much better sense of how many other posters ride/train and could take their input more meaningfully. However, I don't have much ego resting on my riding ability (I am not that skilled, not that highly trained, and riding dressage is truly one of the things I am worst at in life! :D )

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:18 pm

Tuddy wrote:
musical comedy wrote: And what a wimp that had to PM demi to support rather than doing so on the open forum.


Name calling. Nice. Because that will really encourage the quiet bystander to really want to engage in conversations in the open now.


There are very valid reasons for going to PM. On another forum, I got several unsolicited PMs about a despicable POS moderator who was completely incompetent. Had they written that on the forum they would have been tossed. It is exactly analogous to Trump claiming fake news from honest people.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby kande50 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:19 pm

Sue B wrote:Those of us brave enough to post pictures and/or video open ourselves (and our trainers) up to criticism.


True, but some of that criticism is of the constructive kind, which can be especially helpful for those who, for whatever reason, don't have a trainer, or aren't sure if their trainer is on the "right" track (the one they'd prefer to be on).

I obviously, think that posting videos is one of the better ways to sort out what is what, because we can get such a wide range of opinions instead of spending endless resources travelling down a path that isn't what we would have chosen if we'd known there were other options.

The price we pay is that we have to be willing and able to ignore those who we perceive as "unhelpful".

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby demi » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:08 pm

Sue B wrote:... So be it, just remember there are many of us who benefit from the few who share their training journey. We would even benefit from MC! ;)...


Thanks for pointing that out, Sue B. I have benefited from many of the pic/vid posts. I have also benefited from MC's criticisms and I think she has a good eye. I am quite sure she takes good care of her horses and has the best interest of the other horses on this board.

I think of this unique board as a really good team. To put any of the regularly contributing members on ignore would divide the team. If we all work together, we all benefit, and and the horses benefit, too.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Shoulder-in

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:17 pm

I like training and riding tips. To the extent the pictures and videos demonstrate those, I think they are useful for me. But simply reading a tip or trick can really matter to my riding. I don't need to see it demonstrated in a photo or video if it is clearly stated.


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests