Cool down and keep going! September/October Goals and Progress.

[Chisamba]

Never:
at no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever

[StraightForward]

Really? You have never seen a horse kick at the whip because it just doesn't like the whip?

This is what is happening. She has cantered forward more freely when I lunge her in the big outdoor arena. She is a horse that will chase down the whip lash and try to stomp it, and tends to lean into pressure instead of move away.

I'm actually getting it worked out - she needs more time to ramp up into a forward mindset than what I was giving her.

[Ryeissa]

.

[Dresseur]

I have the opposite experience. Because I get to see first hand a lot of horses that are brought in for training or as sales prospects, I get to see a wide variety of behavioral issues. The sales horses (I've now personally brokered 5 of those) have extensive PPE's before being bought - rads of fronts, hocks, stifles etc, 3-4 views of each joint.

Many of the horses that are brought in as sales or for training are not in front of the leg, and until they learn that leg means go, there can be some histrionics, including kicking out at the whip or leg. It's one of the reasons why the first thing that they do is learn to longe, starting in the round pen, and learn to step away from the whip (turn on forehand).

Based on this, as far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of horses that are still "green" to the leg aids. There was one horse that came in after being in professional training...she's ultra fancy, and got by by flinging legs everywhere, but the tell was that she was incredibly inconsistent in the contact. She came in because the owner wanted to step up to FEI levels and the pro had no experience beyond PSG. This horse was not in front of the leg in any way shape or form, and let everyone know by kicking rather violently at the whip a few times. This horse has frequent vet checks that include baseline rads, gets chiro, acupuncture, and custom fit saddles etc etc because the owner can pay for it - sound as a dollar... just was never taught to be in front of the leg and she was 4th level with scores in the high 60's. Now, she's made her I-1 debut and is consistent and smooth... tension still brings the leg flinging from time to time, but the difference is night and day.

[heddylamar]

Many of the horses that are brought in as sales or for training are not in front of the leg

Your entire post perfectly illustrates what happens when my older mare flings a foot at the whip (or me, when I'm in the saddle). She gets tense and behind the leg, then I inadvertently make an ask that's inappropriate for what I'm getting from her, and we have a giant hissy fit.

[musical comedy]

There is kicking at the whip and/or leg and there is reluctance to go a certain direction or not to go at all. They can be two different things. I have seen many times horses kick at whip or leg. I have also personally had one young horse give me some significant trouble going in the more unbalanced direction. Are horses that have these things 'clean' (which I assume means no vet issues)? I don't know, because I always say no horses is 100% perfect. It's probably uncomfortable for a some horses to go in their bad direction. If they are really unbalanced, then they may be fearful of falling. One might ask why they would be so unbalanced and if this indicates 'not clean'. I have no answers for that.

With a young horse like Tesla, I would want to have a series of baseline xrays which I think SF has? Do I recall that they did find some issue with Tesla on radiograph?

[Chisamba]

it is exceptionally common for horses to kick out at the whip. If a green horses first response is to kick at the whip, then often, when they are asked to do something new or different, and the whip is applied, ( and i mean a touch, not a beating) they will often revert to kicking out, it is often simply a way of saying I do not want to, or I do not understand. a horse that does not want to load in the trailer, may kick out when the whip is shown to it , it is saying i am more afraid of the trailer than the whip. a reasonably sound pain free horse learning flying changes my buck or kick up at the whip when asked to change. a horse first learning piaffe will often kick at the whip until it understand what is asked. this being a horse sound enough to be ridden in clinics and shows or a regular basis.

horses do have opinions that have nothing to do with pain, and they express them.

i am very much in agreement with looking for pain if there is a persistent problem. but kicking at the whip can be an expression of opinion, not ONLY an expression of pain. i was not disagreeing with looking into pain as a potential cause i was actually disagreeing with the use of the term never.

[StraightForward]

With a young horse like Tesla, I would want to have a series of baseline xrays which I think SF has? Do I recall that they did find some issue with Tesla on radiograph?

She had clean radiographs, except the coffin bone chip, which has been removed. FWIW, when I initially started teaching her to lunge, she would get stuck in sort of a passage trot and just try to get in close to me and stop. She now does a lovely forward, flowing trot on the lunge, but still wants to crowd me to going to the right. It's her stiff side and she hasn't worked out yet that being on a bigger circle is easier.

From my experience working with young horses, it's totally normal to have a difficult time developing canter in one direction. My last two greenies had a much harder time, just they were not bold/combative types that would kick out against the whip. If she was deteriorating, I would worry, but she is getting better, so I don't believe it's a physical issue.

Anyway, I didn't ask for a referendum on my horse's soundness, and I'm not sure why suddenly normal baby weakness and one-sidedness is suddenly not an explanation. If your babies always canter easily in both directions right off the bat, I'm happy for you.

[Abby Kogler]

Random thoughts and comments:

Tanga way to go, was hoping for a Championshps update!

Chisamba, love Kimba in flight, Gotta love Swordhead for his name alone. Will look forward to his future changes.

I am with Rye that horses that consistently kick out at the whip have something going on physically, have just had it proven true too many times to doubt it any more.

I really enjoy everyones updates. Sympathy for the soundness and injuries, yippees for the successes.

In the last month I got stung in the eye while riding which led to antibiotics, optho visits, and misery for two weeks. I slipped on the stairs in the house and have been so lame, still have a personal best in the hematoma competition and will have muscle damage there the rest of my life, man, glutes matter. Last week I went full tilt in to the microwave door so have a nice slice on my forehead and a black eye. I think its time to ask that whoever has an Abby doll to please take out the pins. One of my woowoo friends is going to sage my house >;->

Needless to say I have not been riding.

Slick was given to me because he was bucking in the canter. I had his hocks done, have been doing lots of PT with the laser, the Feldenkrais, the PEMF, the Vitafloor etc and his body has changed, he is so beautiful! His neck is long (he carried himself like Swordhead) his feet are beautiful (took his shoes off) and he is relaxed and happy. BUT he clearly still had an issue. He actually bucked me off hard several weeks ago, first time I have fallen off riding since 1972 (fell off after an aborted leap off the mounting block a hew years ago but cant count that, that was all pilot error). So I knew something was wrong. Doc is also a chiro vet so had that checked/treated. He reacted in his SI and stifles, no surprise. A week ago yesterday we injected stifles and SI. I free lunged him yesterday and he looked so much better. He willingly cantered and held the canter, he did not kick out, he did not cross canter, or pick up the wrong lead. Go Slick!

Between my crashes and his issues we are going to have to sit out another Legerete clinic. Im so sad. Bless Bertrand for not kicking me out of the program.

I will see if my bum lets me ride today. My husband actually took a picture of my butt cheek with the purple/black crazy hematoma to remind me to not wear socks on the steps. I have to admit it is impressive >;->

The weather has been beautiful.

Keep the updates coming!

[Sue B]

SF, my Tio did the same thing for years and will still revert to kicking out and/or flinging into the whip when presented with a new challenge...like "no motorcycling to the right." Rudy NEVER kicked out at the whip, on the ground or under saddle--completely different horse. They all have their idiosyncrasies, no big deal.

[exvet]

We had rain in the desert! Our property received just over 3 inches in 12 hours; so, needless to say I didn't get to ride yesterday. That isn't to say my horses didn't get a work out. Evidently Junior figured out how to work the caribiner that was keeping the gate between my property (their turnout) and my neighbor's reining training facility closed. While I was gone helping my mother, Junior and his two pals ran (20 minutes) all over his property and through his barn until one of his workers got them back into their turnout. Of course, as would I be, my neighbor was livid. He had a group of gals (buyers) haul in yesterday to look at and buy horses. My neighbor is the used cars salesman of reining horses and often has affluent clientele from CA drive/haul over to look at what he has. I guess Junior, Ace and Morgan (stinker pony) did a little rearranging of the landscaping since it was raining, muddy and windy. I was horrified and helped tidy up the place this morning since it was raining too hard yesterday to clean up the mess. It appears that my neighbor still managed to turnover some horse flesh to the glammed up gals based on what they were loading into their trailer this morning; so he wasn't calling me as many names today. It also came as no surprise when I rode both Junior and then Ace later this morning that neither were all that inspired to work. At least neither was injured; but, since I've already paid for my show entry fees I'm on the look out for upper respiratory disease outbreak or worse VS. Hopefully my lesson tomorrow will be uneventful.

[Ryeissa]

.

[StraightForward]

soft tissue needs to be considered too esp around stifle joint

OK good. My horses are all lame. Thank you for the diagnosis, which I'll take over the veterinary surgeon who has done multiple follow-up evaluations since her OCD surgery.

[kande50]

There is kicking at the whip and/or leg and there is reluctance to go a certain direction or not to go at all. They can be two different things. I have seen many times horses kick at whip or leg. I have also personally had one young horse give me some significant trouble going in the more unbalanced direction. Are horses that have these things 'clean' (which I assume means no vet issues)? I don't know, because I always say no horses is 100% perfect. It's probably uncomfortable for a some horses to go in their bad direction. If they are really unbalanced, then they may be fearful of falling. One might ask why they would be so unbalanced and if this indicates 'not clean'. I have no answers for that.

If the block is not physical pain then about all that's left is coordination or confusion issues.

It would be kind of like if someone wanted me to write fluently with my left hand, and had a whip and was stinging me with it when they thought I needed more motivation.

Or if someone wanted me to dance a certain way and kept stinging me with the whip even though I didn't know what kind of dance they had in mind.

Another situation I run into often is when I try to use the whip to motivate my horses to go closer to something they're not so sure they want to approach. In fact, I've found that I can create lots of unwanted reactions to all the aids that way.

[Moutaineer]

My vet came out this morning and gave Laddie the all clear We think he must have either whacked himself on the fence or been stung by something, but the swelling and heat had all resolved and the suspensory, which was my biggest worry, was non-reactive--and he was sound on the longe, once he'd finished trying to jump all over the poor vet tech.

Vet also crawled all over him poking and palpating looking for anything else that we should be contemplating, and was extremely pleased with how he looked, so we're cleared for back to work.

(Though having watched how "happy" he was to be turned out in the chilly morning sunshine this morning after 4 days stall rest, I think I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon before I get on... and lunge first... Yee Haw...)

Ugh, exvet, I'll bet that was a mess! Wretched beasts! They probably had so much fun out there in the cool rain.

Abby, you need bubble wrapping. Focus, lady! Seriously, I hope all your booboos heal up well and soon. That's very frustrating.

I think we've all had or known horses that exhibited bad behavior because it's their only way of telling us that they hurt, but SF's issue sounds much more like a baby horse "don't wanna, it's hard" moment. (and probably not significant enough to even be called an "issue.")

When I was starting Wizard, who was 12 at that point and so pretty set in his ways, he damned well would not longe to the right. We eventually concluded that everything up to that point had always been done with him to the left and on the left hand side, and suddenly asking him to do something on the other side blew his mind and was physically hard for him. Leading him from the right was an alien concept to him, also. So we worked on that until it was a no brainer. (I put so much work into that horse, and I'm pretty sure the woman who bought him from me hasn't been on him since she's had him. I guess he makes a nice pasture ornament.)

[Ryeissa]

.

[kande50]

I will see if my bum lets me ride today. My husband actually took a picture of my butt cheek with the purple/black crazy hematoma to remind me to not wear socks on the steps. I have to admit it is impressive >;->

I've seen some impressive bruises on butt cheeks, although I haven't contributed to that particular gallery myself and am of course, hoping I'll be spared. The bruises do get more impressive as the body goes to hell, though.

A friend just got bucked off a normally quiet horse and broke her hip, in spite of the fact that her surgeon said she had strong bones. Not a good clean break either, so she's got rods and screws holding her hip together and will now be grounded for awhile.

I keep thinking that this might be a good time to find a safer hobby, but will likely just settle for trying to be more careful. The broken hip accident was sobering though, because she has no idea what set the horse off.

[Tanga]

Thank you for the congratulations. I'm still on a high.

This is just a very general response to horses who are resistant in response to the kicking issue.

I am not one that gets the vet out and looks to issues that can be corrected that way if there is an issue that is not clearly needing a vet. When my horses are off, weird, resistant, or not right, I pretty much assume it's a conditioning issue. I need to get them stronger, fitter, suppler, more even, and when I do that right, those issues will resolve. It has worked pretty well for me. Back when I was pro and I had training horses that came in lame, or I literally bought my older mare (now 21) lame, I just got them in better condition with being in pasture if I could, lots of good trails and hills, lots of running like horses, and whatever exercises I could think of to target what needs more support. It seems to work.

When I go to the gym and I can't do the plank long enough, or side crunches hurt, or my back is stiffer than usual, I don't go to the doctor. I keep doing those exercises and more "around" them to help support those muscles, and have become a massive believer in massage being the cure all for me personally in connection with getting stronger.

That's what I do with the horses. When they get resistant by flipping a head, dropping in front, trying to run off, or whatever, I don't call out a vet to look for a problem, and I don't do something to "make" them do it, like tying the head down, cranking the noseband, or whatever. I just go back to what I need to do to make them stronger and suppler. I am super lucky to have trails with good hills that can be the cure all for many things, because most of it goes back to needing to be more under behind and up in the back, and there are many exercises I can do it the ring to get them better there, but going up and down hills with various exercises is the "easy" and fun way for the horses.

Abby, I hope you're doing better! I know I have a picture somewhere of my impressive bruises. Three years ago my young one beaned me into the ground and I landed on the back of my left hip. I 100% know I didn't break anything, but after getting back on, then going home, then trying to get out of a bath and almost fainting and then crying and barfing uncontrollably, I ended up in the ER. I didn't break anything, but it took a heavy dose of fentanyl and a good hour before I could stop crying and shaking and get the x rays. I think I hit just right on that never bundle. I was literally purple from the upper back to just above my knee. I took a picture wearing a dark purple shirt and holding it up--you could barely see a difference between the skin and the shirt color. I still have a lump on that hip bone, that is now about half the size it was with regular, serious massage work. Getting old kind of sucks that way. I used to just bounce, but now it sticks!

[khall]

I have started enough young horses and worked with difficult horses (yes they have been looked at by good lameness vets and regularly chiro/acupuncture) Rip being one of them to know some horses (WBs especially) just have this push back about being asked to go. I also had a ride just before I left for Portugal on an OTTB g that had taught his rider to DON"T YOU DARE PUT YOUR LEG ON, I WILL THROW A HISSY FIT!! So I had her go remedial, just like you would with a young horse of rubbing your legs along their sides to make sure they are ok with the leg as an aid. This guy was not like this when she bought him, he trained her to back off. They are horses and they have to learn the correct response to the forward and eventually sideways leg aids. It's not always pretty or smooth getting there. There is nothing wrong with using a whip or crop as a back up to your leg aid, can also be used to help turn the green beans with use on the shoulder. There is nothing wrong with using spurs in our work, they are tools that can help to refine and back up our leg aids.

I am one of the first to have a vet out if I am concerned with how my horses are going or looking, but I also know training these horses is not always linear, not always pretty and can be humbling.

For example Rip learning to react appropriately to the whip for piaffe was quite the process. He would buck, he would kick out he would try to leave (and did leave with Cedar last clinic) while working in hand (funny enough a bit easier US) it took time and consistent work but he then started getting the idea of flexing rather than kicking out. Now I can use the piaffe whip or dressage whip or even the lunge whip while lunging and ask for more engagement/flexion of the hind leg and there it is, the correct response. Then moving on the piaffe more on the spot and diagnolizing took some time. He is finally understanding the process better. It has taken time though to get here because his nature is to push back, he is a dominant horse and wants to dominate his rider/handler if he can (give me mares any day!!) He is not in pain that is just his nature. Some days he does not go out there with that thought in his head, but not very often. I am now getting piaffe steps with just the activity of the whip, not having to touch him in hand and getting good half steps just off very light leg aids.

I teach my horses at a standstill to lift and flex each hind leg when touched with the whip. Joplin first time I did this reacted with moving all around, so the wall was used to help stabilize her so then she kicked out, I kept asking until she gave me the correct response of flexing and now she is a flexing over achiever! Bringing the leg up until it almost hits her belly. That's ok she had to learn what response I was looking for. In contrast my WBs tend to stand there initially like are you talking to me? Sometimes they will kick out when first starting but usually it is just the barest lift of the leg that they will give you. They certainly don't move around!! Eventually they will give you the flex, then it is about getting that flex in movement which is another process.

As for having one side more difficult than the other, absolutely normal! SF's filly is a big girl, it will take her time to figure out that large body and react correctly. I see a definite difference in working with those big ones (Rip is LARGE) as compared to the smaller horses. I regularly work with 2 large horses, Rip and Juliet (each probably 1400#). They are just more horse to balance and ride overall. Rip is way more sensitive now after all these years of training thank goodness! But his sister Gaila is a hand smaller at 15.2 and Joplin is 15.2, their natural balance is way easier than the big guys, with Joplin being the easiest by far and just in general more handy.

Mountaineer glad Laddie is ok, Lunging can be a very good thing!!

Congrats Tanga on your outcome at the finals! Did you buy the new saddle? Also very good point re horses and going forward or having issues and how good work helps them.

[Tanga]

khall--That's exactly the process I find I need to go through--it varies.

I did not buy the saddle. I'm still thinking. She did offer me a huge discount, but I'm thinking. If I do spend that huge amount of money, for me, I didn't try and ride in any of her other saddles, so maybe there is an even better one. It would sure be nice if I could find a used Lemke Magic at a great price, but apparently no one sells them!

I just got an email from the USDF saying I am invited to the national finals as a wildcard based on the results at the champs. I figure if I do it dirt cheap and without any frills (like not getting a new saddle, let alone a newer than 41 year old truck) it would cost $30,000 k for two horses, if I'm lucky. I don't think so.

[StraightForward]

Thank you Khall and Tanga. FWIW just lunged her and allowing more time to spool up in trot, we got a few nice transitions to canter both ways. The only kicking was when she glued her feet to the ground and watched some horses riding away from the barn. She totally ignored a cluck as well as a firm tap on the butt, so she found herself offended by a demand to walk off. I am focusing on getting the forward installed from the ground, rather than deal with it from the saddle, which is a big part of why I'm not on her yet. She has grown an inch recently though, and her canter is looking much nicer when she'll do it.

[Linden]

Thank you Khall and Tanga. FWIW just lunged her and allowing more time to spool up in trot, we got a few nice transitions to canter both ways. The only kicking was when she glued her feet to the ground and watched some horses riding away from the barn. She totally ignored a cluck as well as a firm tap on the butt, so she found herself offended by a demand to walk off. I am focusing on getting the forward installed from the ground, rather than deal with it from the saddle, which is a big part of why I'm not on her yet. She has grown an inch recently though, and her canter is looking much nicer when she'll do it.

Do you have sidereins on her? I would suggest adjusting sidereins so that the left one is shorter than the right, so that she slightly has flexion/bend to the left as you start this longing session. it will open up her front right shoulder to step off and free up her midsection and hip so that she feels freer to move forward. Just try it. Play with the amount of flexion. Adjust to effect.

[Linden]

Thank you Khall and Tanga. FWIW just lunged her and allowing more time to spool up in trot, we got a few nice transitions to canter both ways. The only kicking was when she glued her feet to the ground and watched some horses riding away from the barn. She totally ignored a cluck as well as a firm tap on the butt, so she found herself offended by a demand to walk off. I am focusing on getting the forward installed from the ground, rather than deal with it from the saddle, which is a big part of why I'm not on her yet. She has grown an inch recently though, and her canter is looking much nicer when she'll do it.

Do you have sidereins on her? I would suggest adjusting sidereins so that the left one is shorter than the right, so that she slightly has flexion/bend to the left as you start this longing session. it will open up her front right shoulder to step off and free up her midsection and hip so that she feels freer to move forward. Just try it. Play with the amount of flexion. Adjust to effect.

And you know, thinking further, this is a horse that I would probably get on and train from the saddle instead of longing, if the longing isnt going well, maybe stir the pot a bit and do saddle work instead of line work. Training is about finding what works for each individual, not following a set recipe. The giodelines are there for general reference, but you have to adjust to effect.

[StraightForward]

No, don't use side reins. I occasionally use lauffer reins once the horse is solid at lunging in all gaits. Working on long lining her instead, but wanted to solidify canter on the lunge before dealing with the second line.

Also, my planned ground person has a shoulder injury right now, so I won't be hopping on her any time soon.

[StraightForward]

soft tissue needs to be considered too esp around stifle joint

OK good. My horses are all lame. Thank you for the diagnosis, which I'll take over the veterinary surgeon who has done multiple follow-up evaluations since her OCD surgery.

This was a general statement, I wasn't talking specifically about your horses. I was just trying to add content to this general discussion about forward issues.

You didn't acknowledge any of the follow-up explanation that I gave, just continued to back up your original statement that all horses, in your experience that would kick out at a forward cue, are in physical pain. So if you stand by your original statement, then I guess you don't believe my further explanation, including the fact that the behavior has already improved. This also seems to be related to my posts since I addressed the clean radiographs, which then shifted your comment to soft tissues.

You were lecturing others not long ago about writing clearly, so maybe do that if you really were not referring to my horse obliquely.

[Kyra's Mom]

Apparently Kyra is lame too because she will kick out at the whip at times. If she does it now, it is most certainly my fault for over aiding. I listen to her, thank her for her opinion and tell her to get over it and strive to ride more correctly.

I have found (with my sample size of 6--3 mares and 3 geldings) that mare's especially are more sensitive and react faster. Sometimes with kicking.

I am not sure how many of you have started young horses? There is a lot they have to process and they certainly can react in a less than desirable manner by kicking, bucking, etc, etc out of confusion or just general...you want me to do what??? As one of my previous instructor's said...young horses are very quick to call the union .

Susan

[Ryeissa]

.

ETA- you all are focusing on the word "lame" but that is your terminology. I am using the word pain. They are not always the same thing.

[Chisamba]

Rye I am sorry you feel guilty for not recognizing pain in your horse. but there are many occasions when a horse may kick at the whip that is not related to pain.
I can think of a few that may make sense to you. a horse does not want to leave the barn and its friends to go to the outdoor arena, but is perfectly sound indoors and it refuses to go forward. yes it may kick at the whip.

by the same token, a horse does not want to leave the property for a trail ride, it was pain free and perfectly happy on the property and suddenly at the head of the trail when it kicks out and refuses to go forward. in this instance it may baulk, rear, spin, kick and do a number of unwanted things

a horse does not want to load in the trailer, it refuses to go forward, it kicks at the whip,

a horse is not happily off the leg in its training. It has suddenly hit a ceiling at say, second level. rider takes horse to trainer to help overcome ceiling. horse ignores leg, trainer uses whip, horse kicks out, this horse is functioning well enough to do all the moves of second level without any evidence of pain. after a few sessions the horse is now off the leg and over the false ceiling

any cognitive dissonance may cause a negative reaction to the forward aid, be it leg, whip, or simply the hand ( dissonance for this particular use definition: dissonance anxiety or similar unpleasant feelings resulting from a lack of agreement between a person's(horses) established ideas, beliefs, and attitudes and some more recently acquired information} .

kimba has a little trick its is not important, but she will touch the jolly ball in her stall for a treat. i say touch the ball, she touches the ball an i giver her a treat. so today, the second time i said touch the ball, she walked to the general area, whiffed her nose in the direction of the ball and did not touch it, so i did not give her a treat. she stamped her foot, after a moment or two of not getting the treat, walked over and smacked the ball sharply and looked at me. she knew she was supposed to touch the ball, she tried to take a short cut, then she was very emphatic in following the operant conditioning to get her treat. So she was smart enough to cheat, knew she had cheated and was smart enough to be emphatic. so she is also smart enough to say, i do not wanna, if i ask her for something, and that may very well have nothing to do with pain.

now i guess i shall stop distracting from the thread and go ride a few horses, have a great day everyone

[Ryeissa]

.

[exvet]

Had an awesome lesson today. Coach/riding instructor asked what I wanted to work on with the show coming up and I responded that I wanted to work on better response time to my aids, particularly the leg aids. There are just too many times I come out and get on where Junior just lacks the enthusiasm to really react promptly to my aids. Soooooo we went to work. The idea was as follows: from halt or walk and on a scale from 1 (barely there) to 10 (kick like you're going to lock your spurs together) use your leg for the upward transition starting with a 1. If not immediately answered with a blast off then go immediately to a 10 with the leg at least 4-5 times. Rinse and repeat. We did and went through the upward transitions between and within the gaits. Now the other 'end' of the aids was of equal focus as well. When I closed my hands to collect the gait or ask for a downward transition, the response was expected to be immediate, if not halt IMMEDIATELY. The theory was to get Junior so responsive to both ends of the aids that I could easily get that degree of power (internally) necessary to really perform with real engagement and throughness. The other goal/point was not to reward or teach him that I just wanted him to get stronger and run off with the upward aids (leg) because all too often getting them hot of the leg often miscommunicates to the horse - leg on, run off. It was equally important that I go (leg) and come back (hand/seat) with equal emphasis. The other key was that I had all that power in my hand which I could easily recycle through my core and seat back to his hind end. This was accomplished by keeping him from bracing at the base of his neck by light touches to the corners of his mouth such that the contact and his underside of his neck felt like butter - so power over the topline but soft and supple underneath. As I was told during and at the end of my lesson, I successfully found another gear to Junior Collection is coming with some real meaning now

[mari]

That sounds like an awesome lesson Exvet! Methinks I also need to refresh these concepts at least once a week. It's just so dang hard for me to remember to enforce that level of response with every aid, every ride.

[Linden]

Many of the horses that are brought in as sales or for training are not in front of the leg

Your entire post perfectly illustrates what happens when my older mare flings a foot at the whip (or me, when I'm in the saddle). She gets tense and behind the leg, then I inadvertently make an ask that's inappropriate for what I'm getting from her, and we have a giant hissy fit.

So this begs the question, which came first?

A: The kicking out at the whip or leg and having a hissy fit that makes her get stuck and pissy behind your leg out of behavioral resentment, or

B: Her not being forward/in front of the leg prior to when she objects to the escalating driving aids, due to medical issues, or something other than a bad attitude

IMHO I would think B, which is why you then have to resort to your whip/driving leg aids so forcefully that she objects to it and gets even further behind/sucked back. If she was going forward enough you wouldn't be using the whip in the first place, right?

Just thinking out loud -

Most of the time if I had a horse who would go behind the leg and get stuck it was because they were crooked in their body and that caused a block somewhere along the line. The crookedness could be due to rider error,(too much flexion and throwing away the outside rein) unequal body strength due to the way the horse was either naturally built, bad training, muscle tightness, pain etc. They were communicating to me that they resented the driving aids BECAUSE they physically could not give the right response to them, as they were blocked, and they didnt find it fair to be 'in trouble' for something that they couldn't control ( or give me a right answer to) without help. The straighter I made them, and the more supple they became on both sides, the more willing they were to go forward. Eventually they wouldn't even think to suck back at all behind any type of forward aid, and I could then teach them how to bend properly without becoming blocked.

Stuck and behind the right inside leg? (if its usually caused by too much inside flexion and (incorrect) bend. Fix? flex/bend slightly left and ride the right shoulders leading in shoulder fore, asking for forward from both sides As the shoulders are now free to move out, and the kink in the energy flow along the right inside of the body straightens out, it makes it easier to move in front of the right inside leg, and then the horse can then step into the right rein and take it forward. Once the forward response is good, and the contact and straightness on the inside is fixed, you can return to regular inside flexion and positioning, with an honest contact in both reins and the horse going forward from both legs.

[Ryeissa]

.

[musical comedy]

Most of the time if I had a horse who would go behind the leg and get stuck it was because they were crooked in their body and that caused a block somewhere along the line. The crookedness could be due to rider error,(too much flexion and throwing away the outside rein) unequal body strength due to the way the horse was either naturally built, bad training, muscle tightness, pain etc. They were communicating to me that they resented the driving aids BECAUSE they physically could not give the right response to them, as they were blocked, and they didnt find it fair to be 'in trouble' for something that they couldn't control ( or give me a right answer to) without help. The straighter I made them, and the more supple they became on both sides, the more willing they were to go forward. Eventually they wouldn't even think to suck back at all behind any type of forward aid, and I could then teach them how to bend properly without becoming blocked.

<respectfully snipped> Yes, 'blockages' are the reason for many unsuccessful attempts of things during riding. And yes, sometimes it has to do with their conformation and because of it their inability to come through. Crookedness is often the factor, but to get straight is difficult for some due to what you mentioned, and trying to get straight can cause pain that results in behavior. So that is where the pain aspect comes in. Some horses will work while having pain and some won't. How many hobbling horses have we seen still go when asked. But pain doesn't have to mean the horse has a serious issue. Just tight muscles, blockages, etc. so as not to repeat myself.

In past years, I have written about riding issues I had and what my horses were doing. When one does that, the reading audience isn't there, doesn't know the horse, doesn't know the rider's competency, etc. Because of that, the suggestions and opinions responders give are often not helpful or the right ones. Nobody's fault.

[Ryeissa]

.

[exvet]

Most of the time if I had a horse who would go behind the leg and get stuck it was because they were crooked in their body and that caused a block somewhere along the line. The crookedness could be due to rider error,(too much flexion and throwing away the outside rein) unequal body strength due to the way the horse was either naturally built, bad training, muscle tightness, pain etc. They were communicating to me that they resented the driving aids BECAUSE they physically could not give the right response to them, as they were blocked, and they didnt find it fair to be 'in trouble' for something that they couldn't control ( or give me a right answer to) without help. The straighter I made them, and the more supple they became on both sides, the more willing they were to go forward. Eventually they wouldn't even think to suck back at all behind any type of forward aid, and I could then teach them how to bend properly without becoming blocked.

And this to me is the purpose of dressage and in many ways a form of physical therapy. How many of us have had physical therapy? Did it hurt before, during and after or any combination of the same? Were we ever told that some of the discomfort is to be expected but we had to work through it and also were given tips and perhaps even medications to support us through this time?

I think tension and blockages can cause real discomfort and/or pain. I don't believe that every situation is an indication of a permanent (unable to be effectively treated) problem and can be addressed with correct riding/training. The onus is on us with whatever outside/professional help is needed/chosen to determine if the source can be addressed and either removed or managed effectively. Often this doesn't require a vet, at times it does, at times it just requires us to do a better job analyzing (listening to the horse and observing).

Usually in such a situation (if I'm confident there is no real injury or ailment to address or I'll address them and then proceed as follows) I try to go back to the very basics and break down exercises into the smallest building blocks possible when in the arena and note when the horse resists. I try to achieve the very basic goal possible, reward, and then push a little bit more each time but be careful not to over face. At times it can get a little ugly before the lightbulb goes off but I think years in the saddle has helped me better recognize when to push and when to quit for the day. I also use conditioning outside the arena to help build strength and stamina. What I also do is not just treat my rides 'out' as trail rides but I keep working on forward, straightness and balance the entire time. There can be no improvement without trying to push the envelope at some point; however, I also try to set it up so that the request is very black and white and reward as soon as there is appropriate effort in order to avoid 'the behaviors'. Horses usually just seek fairness. There are exceptions where unwanted behavior is ingrained but discussing those probably requires another thread.

[kande50]

So that is where the pain aspect comes in. Some horses will work while having pain and some won't. How many hobbling horses have we seen still go when asked. But pain doesn't have to mean the horse has a serious issue. Just tight muscles, blockages, etc. so as not to repeat myself.

I suspect that my horses deal with a lot more mental blocks than physical ones, because as you've noted, horses can be incredibly stoic.

My horse, for example, has been working in the same indoor for 15 years now, yet still has mental blocks about yielding from the leg sometimes. I doubt very much it's a pain issue because he'll leg yield just fine if he has plenty of room and isn't worried about what he's yielding toward, but try to get him to yield closer to the wall, or toward the hay mow at the other end, and he's often blocked by his persistent and overwhelming concerns for his safety.

It did occur to me that if I wasn't so obsessed about working close to the wall (small indoor), going into the corners, and working shoulder fore, this wouldn't even be an issue because I'd just let him stay a comfortable distance from the things he didn't want to approach until he was familiar enough with them to be okay with approaching them. In fact, I tested out that theory yesterday, and while it takes him awhile to get comfortable enough (we spent quite a bit of time doing small circles in the middle of the indoor until he was ready) he did eventually feel safe enough to yield calmly and willingly.

[Aleuronx]

Adding to the discussion to me straightness is the end goal. Starting and riding young horses that straightness works on a scale not a black/white or 1 or 0. You can't make a 3 year old ride Grand prix level straight but you can work towards it incrementally.

I saw that with my own young horse this past weekend we were able to influence the left side and ride her that next step of straightness. And you know what? The significant leg paddle greatly decreased, she traveled more out in front with her front legs and overall felt more even.

See here:
https://youtu.be/gD0Mr6nWakI

In other news I'm so stinkin' proud of her and how she handled being at her first overnight show in the big atmosphere of Regionals. We rode all over, no lunging required and while there was some minor spooking (ladies in skirts, ahem) she never felt hysterical or dangerous. A win-win and makes me super excited to bring her out next year.

Sleepy.jpg (12.38 KiB) Viewed 30382 times

Stopping to smell the fake flowers

Flowers.jpg (13.97 KiB) Viewed 30382 times

Beautiful morning light ride

Ears perked.jpg (13.93 KiB) Viewed 30382 times

[Ryeissa]

.

[piedmontfields]

A*x, lovely update! Your mare looks super happy. It is amazing to me how incremental straightness development is, but it makes sense, too.
Exvet, that is an awesome lesson update. It is always so cool to feel how much horse the horse underneath you can become.

I, too, am very much of the mind and lived experience that "There can be no improvement without trying to push the envelope at some point" as Exvet nicely summarized. Ideally, my request is clear enough that we can get in and out of any drama quickly, but it also really can vary by horse. I think that people who have not developed a number of horses up the levels can lack understanding about what it is like to fairly + clearly raise expectations for a horse. This is a frequent challenge for training/1st level riders who would like to move up, but are not prepared to support improved horsey athleticism through effective riding/training. This sort of rider often backs off at the slightest horsey complaint about new expectations. Horses, by nature, are not especially ambitious about their physical development! lol

[kande50]

Agree that if going up through the levels is the primary goal then one does need to commit to pushing themselves and the horse hard enough to progress fast enough to get to the top (or as far up the levels as possible) before the horse is too old to do that kind of work, anymore.

But, that doesn't have to be the goal, because the goal can be improvement without worrying about any kind of a timeline.

[heddylamar]

So this begs the question, which came first?

A: The kicking out at the whip or leg and having a hissy fit that makes her get stuck and pissy behind your leg out of behavioral resentment, or

B: Her not being forward/in front of the leg prior to when she objects to the escalating driving aids, due to medical issues, or something other than a bad attitude

I know the cause of the kicking, thus can normally avoid it It's all about setting her up for success.

She is a giant ball of anxiety, and I'm a very laid-back, patient rider. We complement each other normally, but very occasionally something rattles her, I don't notice, and she gets tense. Then I add to her distress by asking for more than she can give at the moment.

The first few times of me being tone-deaf and asking for something she can't handle while anxious are fine. But she gets increasingly short if I don't clue in, eventually lashing out.

I've been riding her for 18+ years, and it's happened less than 3 times under saddle, but she does kick and the root problem is neither physical nor behavioral.

[Flight]

Bit behind but have enjoyed the discussions above.
Glad Laddie's ok, Moutaineer!
Swordhead looks like he has some tricky conformation. Might be just a captured moment in the photos but his expression to me looks happier in that middle pic.

I did a clinic the other week and thought it would be very similar to who I have been working with but I got legerete'd. It really helped me get Norsey's face out from hiding behind the contact and the vertical, and that's always been a problem. But now I'm a bit lost. Chisamba, it's exactly like you said about driving a car from A to B on a route you know, and then someone tells you to go via C and then you're lost. Well, I'm driving around the backstreets not sure which way to go now. While I don't mind knowing more about that method and watching 3 days worth it was interesting, it does confuse what I do now.
I really need to find a regular instructor and stick to it!

[kande50]

The first few times of me being tone-deaf and asking for something she can't handle while anxious are fine. But she gets increasingly short if I don't clue in, eventually lashing out.

I've been riding her for 18+ years, and it's happened less than 3 times under saddle, but she does kick and the root problem is neither physical nor behavioral.

If it's not behavioral then what do you think it is?

And yes, when I get "resistances" from my horses it's because I misjudge how blocked they are, but I still see their reactions as behavioral. Justified, but still behavioral.

[Chisamba]

Kande is right. Any physical expression is considered behavioral. Behavioral is not a bad word. Smiling is behavioral. Nodding in agreement is behavioral.

Just a side bar for those who think behaviors are only bad.

If you are not behavioral you are comatose.

[heddylamar]

If it's not behavioral then what do you think it is?

While *I* wouldn’t consider the root problem behavioral when it’s clearly a side effect of her anxiety, if we’re using Chisamba’s definition, it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[blob]

Glad to hear some good show reports from folks!

I've been trying to do exercises to gain more shoulder control with MM. She does a great shoulder-in, but the reality is that I am aiding the hindquarters to be out, rather than riding the shoulder in. So, I'm trying to do more exercises that give me no choice but to focus on the shoulder. Played around with a TOH to trot shoulder in exercise yesterday. And afterwards when asking for more collection in the trot, she kept offering me a baby passage. As far as changes go, I'm finding that she is giving better changes when I'm two point. They're not perfect because she's more strung out then when I'm sitting down. But It seems that my seat is definitely blocking her on the left to right change. So, I need to find a way to work on that.

RP is beginning rehab back into work. I've been walking him by hand for 10 minutes on flat ground, lunging him at the trot with side reins for 2 minutes each direction with a two minute walk break in between, and then hand walking on flat ground again. I know lunging probably isn't ideal but it's proven to be the best of our options. And luckily our arena is wide, so he's going on nearly a 40 meter circle. I will soon add in walking by hand in the hills. and slowly upping his trotting. Once he seems settled into the work routine a bit, I'll get on him and do w-t under saddle.

[Ryeissa]

Behavior is an action or reaction to the environment or to internal thoughts and emotions. Behavioral symptoms are persistent or repetitive behaviors that are unusual, disruptive, inappropriate, or cause problems. source HeathGrades

[Chisamba]

Once again, you add the word symptoms and it alters the meaning of behaviors. The term symptom means the subjective evidence of disease.

For example a common behavior of babies is to cry.

Constant crying can be a symptom of unhappiness, pain, hunger et al

[Chisamba]

Behaviors are response to either physical ( aka environmental) or psychological (aka emotional.