Rein Length

[Ryeissa]

agree! nice pics!

[blob]

I posted this set of photos in the training thread, but they're quite relevant, so reposting here.

These are pictures of RP in the same ride in different frames. You can see hock articulation and shoulder reach are influenced by the frame he's in. In two of the pictures he is too closed in the throat-latch (1 & 2) and in two pictures his poll is lower than I would like it to be (1 & 3).

What I think is interesting is that 4 is the picture I'm aiming for, it's also the picture where I have the shortest rein. But, if I just went to a shorter rein from 1, then I would end up with 2, which IMO is the worst expression of his movement.

So, does RP go best in a short rein? Yes. But I have to ride him up and open into that shorter rein. And if I can't do that successfully it is better to let him be a bit longer (3).

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[Tanga]

Blob--Exactly. It's a process. They have to warm up into it and get conditioned to it. To me, when it is right, it feels like the whole front end lifts up into the rein and my lap, and I can do those pirouettes, changes or p/p without losing that connection. They become lighter. If if I feel them dropping or pulling down in front, the hind end needs to come up under more to bring that up.

[Ponichiwa]

(re)Learned that lesson the hard way yesterday-- had the short reins but not the throughness, and as a result neither Queso nor I felt good about the go-to-work portions of yesterday's ride. Horses are pretty good at humbling us.

Chisamba and others have made this point a couple times: focusing only on the reins gives you an incomplete picture. Still true.

[Ryeissa]

yes pic 4 shows the lift of the sternum I was talking about. This is exactly how I ride too. you have to ride the horse to the bit. Its not linear. I find horses like this (and mine) tend go all the way around the moutain of low/up/closed/up again and again. Its like they have more reactivity and have to really find a home base as they experiment with what you want.
I get a lot of 1 as well.

[demi]

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Top pic was yesterday, bottom pic was today. Same rein length, just holding hands a little higher in second pic, but it has taken a couple of weeks to get to the point where I could use my seat enough to be able to lift my hands to where they felt effective.

[Tanga]

Demi--This is what I am talking about. I tend to do what you are doing. Instead of lifting, though, it is actually much easier to shorten them, and then your seat is much easier to use correctly. I'm really working on retraining myself to ride with that shorter rein instead of lifting. I don't know how successful I am.

[demi]

Here’s a pic from about 3 weeks ago where I was forcing my hands down with the short rein and my hands were bouncing and I’m riding front to back. This is the same rein length (#2 stop just in front of my knuckles) as in the picture from today.

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I think my own conformation combined with my horse’s downhill conformation works better with slightly lifted hands. If I force my hands down to where my trainer wants them, my elbows are stiff, and my hands bounce. Today (second pic in previous post) my hands were very still for most of the ride, and I was riding back to front. Her front is lifted in the pic from today, and her hind leg is more under.

[StraightForward]

I like the photo from today; it looks like your chest is staying more open with that position. You might be able to shorten the rein a touch and bring your elbow a bit forward? I think it's a feel thing to get to that point where there is an elastic contact and the half halts connect from the seat through the rein, and HH is possible without the position being compromised.

In the older photo, I don't think the actual length of the rein would be too short if the elbow was a little forward. I agree that Rocky looks too compressed there, and the newer photos look much more harmonious and I get the sense that you could lengthen Rocky's neck from the working position.

[Ryeissa]

I think the elbows are a factor. They should stay slightly in front of the trunk. That is the place they allow the most elastic connection.

[blob]

I think the elbows are a factor. They should stay slightly in front of the trunk. That is the place they allow the most elastic connection.

This is one of the main reasons I need to have shorter reins on MM. It's not that the length of connection is wrong. It's that my reins get long and to get the right feel, i bring my arms/elbows/hands too far back. Instead, I should shorten the rein and bring my arms forward.

The mantra is not really 'shorter reins, shorter reins' for me right now. Instead it's 'hands forward, shorten reins'.

[Ryeissa]

.

[Ryeissa]

This is a better arm and hand position

[Tanga]

Demi--I get it. We have to work with our conformation. The three weeks ago picture, from looking at it, I would say if you shortened your rein 5 inches, you could keep your hand comfortably down and in front without strain. But it is super HARD to get there, and I can't tell you why. At least with me. We look like we have similar conformation--long legs, short torso and "normal" arms. I 100% understand the feeling you are talking about and how uncomfortable it is and I cannot explain why. All I can say is when I can get myself to shorten the reins when I am in that position, it all becomes easier. It also may be the level of your horse. If he isn't at a point where he can sit more from behind when you do that, maybe it's impossible for now. I don't know--just empathizing.

[demi]

Good discussion! And thanks for the pictures, Ryeissa. I know pics are just a moment in time, but because I am so visual, I find that they really add to the discussion.

I understand and have thought a lot about the elbows slightly in front of the trunk. I have been keeping that mind as I ride and watch my own vids. My personal problem with keeping my hands slightly forward is that I tend to stiffening my elbows and shoulders when I do it. And any stiffness at all gives my horse something to brace against. And when she has something to brace against she tilts her head or curls it stiffly downward against me.

This tilting and curling at training level needs to be addressed and fixed. Melissa Creswick said I should do many half halts. For now, I’m really happy about where we were yesterday. My half halts were going through very well in the absence of stiffness from me. It’s taken several weeks to get to where I was yesterday so my plan is to try to maintain it for another 3 or 4 weeks. Then I’ll do the test again and see what she says.

When my arms are stiff my half halts are coarse. Stiff arms dampen the effect of the seat so I had to use stronger, coarser, half halts. In effect, stiff arms cause front to back riding. When my arms are relaxed like yesterday, the half halts were much better and it’s much easier to ride back to front. Albrecht describes in “Dressage Principles”, “A rider who sits correctly upright, with his upper arms hanging vertically from his squared shoulders will automatically have a deep seat and will be able to produce the required seat effects by minute changes of inclination in his pelvis.”

[StraightForward]

. All I can say is when I can get myself to shorten the reins when I am in that position, it all becomes easier. It also may be the level of your horse. If he isn't at a point where he can sit more from behind when you do that, maybe it's impossible for now. I don't know--just empathizing.

Taking another look, I get the impression from Demi's older photo of the hands connecting to the pelvis, if that makes sense, whereas in the newer pictures, especially with the pink shirt, I get more the impression of the connection of the elbows to the lower back, which is the feeling it try to get when I ride. That feeling is lost when the horse goes low in the poll, or if the reins get too long. Definitely having the horse sitting and carrying a bit makes it all easier. I think when the hands are low, and especially if the hand has to draw back towards the groin, we're forced to brace up in our shoulders, whereas if the hands are a little more up and forward the chest can stay open because the work is being done more with the core and weight of the upper arm.

Riding a downhill horse myself, it is easy to get sucked into the vortex of tipping forward, but sitting up and open and thinking of pushing more of the horse up in front seems to help fill the reins and maintain a better connection.

Demi - we were writing at the same time, so YMMV with my comments on upper arm position, just what I experience. For me the upper arm can become more vertical as the horse collects and stays more under my seat.

[demi]

Yes, thanks Tanga! When you said if I could shorten the reins in the pic from 3 weeks ago by 5 inches I thought NO WAY! But in looking at the pic I am pretty sure you are right! We’re just not there yet. I am hoping that I’ll be able to shorten the reins as my mare gets more advanced and stronger. Thanks

[demi]

SF, the comment about hands connecting to the pelvis vs the lower back is exactly what I was thinking about. I remember hearing DeKunffy say “hold the reins with your lower back”.

[Tanga]

straightforward I really don't know how to differentiate hands to the pelvis or lower back. I like the blue shirt position of where her lower arms are, but I think a shorter rein is where it needs to end up. I TOTALLY get having a downhill horse that draws you into the circle of long reins and leaning forward. The girls' mom is a master at that.

demi--I completely know what you're thinking. I've said "no way" to myself a lot. I'll see if I can pull some screenshots like yours to show how it's working on me.

I can't stand DeKunffy because he repeats a lot of things but never has never really ridden. But, the feeling I am trying to describe is my hands are in my seat/crotch even though the reins are shorter, and the horse comes up into them and fills in that area, allowing me to sit up straighter, instead of my bad habit of leaning forward to "give" to get them to lighten up. which doesn't work.

[Ryeissa]

SF, the comment about hands connecting to the pelvis vs the lower back is exactly what I was thinking about. I remember hearing DeKunffy say “hold the reins with your lower back”.

I think (?) if you have the front body line (collarbone to public bone) the same length as your back line the reins will sort themselves out...?


https://dressagetoday.com/rider-wellnes ... ines-26212
https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/t ... tion-30333

[demi]

Good articles Rye, thank you! Ive only read through them very quickly but in the Beth Baumert article, I liked the idea of imagining myself in a boat. I hadn’t heard that analogy before and when I thought about it, it worked well for me. I’ll have to read the second article more carefully but some things stood out to me and I will try to comment after Ive read it again.

[lorilu]

this is a wonderful thread. thanks all !

[Chisamba]

I posted this set of photos in the training thread, but they're quite relevant, so reposting here.

These are pictures of RP in the same ride in different frames. You can see hock articulation and shoulder reach are influenced by the frame he's in. In two of the pictures he is too closed in the throat-latch (1 & 2) and in two pictures his poll is lower than I would like it to be (1 & 3).

What I think is interesting is that 4 is the picture I'm aiming for, it's also the picture where I have the shortest rein. But, if I just went to a shorter rein from 1, then I would end up with 2, which IMO is the worst expression of his movement.

So, does RP go best in a short rein? Yes. But I have to ride him up and open into that shorter rein. And if I can't do that successfully it is better to let him be a bit longer (3).

Presentation3.jpg

so, for fun I copied your photos, beheaded them flipped them all to face the same way and shuffled them. it gave quite a different visual of which picture shows the best articulation hind stride and shoulder reach. it is almost impossible to avoid inherent bias unless you really work at it.

now in have to do the fun job of doing the same to my own photos.

[blob]

I posted this set of photos in the training thread, but they're quite relevant, so reposting here.

These are pictures of RP in the same ride in different frames. You can see hock articulation and shoulder reach are influenced by the frame he's in. In two of the pictures he is too closed in the throat-latch (1 & 2) and in two pictures his poll is lower than I would like it to be (1 & 3).

What I think is interesting is that 4 is the picture I'm aiming for, it's also the picture where I have the shortest rein. But, if I just went to a shorter rein from 1, then I would end up with 2, which IMO is the worst expression of his movement.

So, does RP go best in a short rein? Yes. But I have to ride him up and open into that shorter rein. And if I can't do that successfully it is better to let him be a bit longer (3).

Presentation3.jpg

so, for fun I copied your photos, beheaded them flipped them all to face the same way and shuffled them. it gave quite a different visual of which picture shows the best articulation hind stride and shoulder reach. it is almost impossible to avoid inherent bias unless you really work at it.

now in have to do the fun job of doing the same to my own photos.

What did you find? I imagine 2 is still definitely the worst in terms of articulation and reach. In 1 he has nice articulation and reach, but I do think it's interesting that the space between his front legs and the space between his hind legs is not the same. His hock has good action, but it's not coming forward as much. In 3 & 4 there appears to be more evenness. But I'm definitely curious to hear what your excercise showed.

[Chisamba]

well, in my opinion. looking only at legs, it was 2,3, 4, 1 in order of preference.

[Ryeissa]

I like a mix of the sternum lift of 4 and the push of 1. I really would not prefer 2 or 3. The sternum of the horse is very dropped and it makes everything so much harder being downhill. Capture the sternum first and add push over the withers to get the better work on 1 and 4. The abs are starting to work in 1 and 4.

I have basically this exact same horse and I feel fairly comfortable with my assesement. I found lifting the sternum is absolutely key and this also involves not getting the stride too large. The balance has to stay under the horse

ETA- I like 1 the best as the region behind the saddle is lifted the best of all the photos. The neck also looks really good- . It has the nice tone that I like where the horse is really filling the hand and it looks flowing/soft/not jammed....

4 is nice too in the neck (the poll is much better) but it looks a little harder to supple laterally (hard to tell from just a photo)- I would take this nice work and HH the poll to the highest point while keeping all the good stuff. Nice job

[blob]

Looking just at the legs, I still don't like pic 2. In fact, it's because of the legs I don't like that picture. The hock is not articulating well and even though the front leg has some reach, the shoulder and leg are pointing down, rather than out.

Rye, you're correct about the lack of supplenrss in 4. That neck position is still hard for him and so he does not have the strength to really carry and still stay strong

[Chisamba]

ifbyou can't overcome your own bias. you cease to learn.

first pay attention to the angle of the photo. in both 2 andb3 the camera is tilted. you have to first align the photos so the the feet are level .
then you have to remove the head and neck and shuffle them so you no longer know which neck you are looking at. then notice in which photo the horse is tracking up and in which photo the thoracic sling is carried higher.

then if you like check and see if you deceived yourself

I do not do this to argue. I do not really care what your bias is, we all have one. I try to question myself when I have a chance and the lovely Blob shared 4 photos that meet me do just that

[Ryeissa]

ifbyou can't overcome your own bias. you cease to learn.

first pay attention to the angle of the photo. in both 2 andb3 the camera is tilted. you have to first align the photos so the the feet are level .
then you have to remove the head and neck and shuffle them so you no longer know which neck you are looking at. then notice in which photo the horse is tracking up and in which photo the thoracic sling is carried higher.

then if you like check and see if you deceived yourself

I do not do this to argue. I do not really care what your bias is, we all have one. I try to question myself when I have a chance and the lovely Blob shared 4 photos that meet me do just that

4 is by far the best for thorasic sling engagment- I like how the chest is relative to the front legs. You can see clearly a vertical line through to where c5 is on the horse and that vertical impression carries up to the underneck. That is something that helps me see proper riding.

I don't see a bias here---I don't need to have a certain picture be right....lord knows I love pretty much in the land of "almost right". I tried what you talked about and I'm just not quite seeing it, sorry. Interesting idea though

Bias is a disproportionate weight in favor of or against an idea or thing, usually in a way that is closed-minded, prejudicial, or unfair. Biases can be innate or learned. People may develop biases for or against an individual, a group, or a belief.

One thing that helps me is to evaluate the horse relative to itself. I have no need to be right or wrong, its just an assesement. I enjoy Blob sharing photos that are a very similar horse to my horse and I enjoy seeing what others think.

[blob]

in both 2 andb3 the camera is tilted.

This part is interesting to me. The pictures are all stills from a video with my cellphone on a tripod. So technically the camera should be exactly the same for all. However, I too wondered if the ones where he looks more downhill were related to my camera angle in relation to how far or close he was from the camera that time around v. how he is going.

I am enjoying this discussion!

[Ryeissa]

in both 2 andb3 the camera is tilted.

This part is interesting to me. The pictures are all stills from a video with my cellphone on a tripod. So technically the camera should be exactly the same for all. However, I too wondered if the ones where he looks more downhill were related to my camera angle in relation to how far or close he was from the camera that time around v. how he is going.

I am enjoying this discussion!

I just don't see a problem here, Blob. I have looked at a lot of footage of videos and photos in my own horse, so I might have already "adapted" to train my eye to see the horse relative to itself.
I know that sales photos sometimes try to tilt pictures to appear more uphill, but one can easily see the realtionship to the background and when something looks "off".
I would say keep looking at the croup. In 1 and 4 it's level balance- I actually think the balance is more even in 1 vs 4, but both are around the 1st/2nd level carraige, not collected yet.

[demi]

They were all tilted just a little bit but enough to make them look better when i squared them up. #2 looks better with all four feet on the same line, but I still like #4 best without a doubt. I actually like the frame in #4 for him a lot. I think as Blob says, he just needs more strength to carry himself like that. I think he’s going to be pretty special!

I didnt take the head and neck off any of them, because even if the legs were better in #2, the neck is still shorter than it needs to be(as evidenced in the other 3 pics), his poll is to low, and his face is behind the vertical. So even if the legs were better (which I dont think is the case anyway) what good would it be if the head and neck were compromised to get there.

I tend to get biased when I look at my own still photos for too long. Then i have to go back to the video and get a more realistic view. I think I got some interesting video today wrt rein length.

[Chisamba]

a long time ago on udbb I took 4 photos of horses and silhouetted them and posted them and asked people to rank them without bias. it was right in the middle of the aggressively anti anky and gal movement and I really wanted to see if purple could really identify the biomechanics without knowing who they were talking about.

to my surprise even the most vehement mouths would not venture comment.

I do quite a lot of this to try and really learn.

some of the very old accepted truths really are not true. being able to freeze and Screen shoot is a fantastic tool. slow mo too.

I am sorry I hijacked the rein length thread.

[Chisamba]

in both 2 andb3 the camera is tilted.

This part is interesting to me. The pictures are all stills from a video with my cellphone on a tripod. So technically the camera should be exactly the same for all. However, I too wondered if the ones where he looks more downhill were related to my camera angle in relation to how far or close he was from the camera that time around v. how he is going.

I am enjoying this discussion!

camera lens distortion is real. a slight angle toward or away. changes the perspective dramatically. it makes no difference if the camera is on a tripod. because unless you ride exactly the same line the same way you have to be prepared to.look at distortion.

[Ryeissa]

blob sent you a PM

[Chisamba]

So I like this photo and I do not really mind if others have criticism of it, but despite liking it I feel if I rode in the show ring at this length I would be told the horse was not on the bit. comments ?

[exvet]

So I like this photo and I do not really mind if others have criticism of it, but despite liking it I feel if I rode in the show ring at this length I would be told the horse was not on the bit. comments ?

I too really like this picture and if the ride were to continue (and preceding strides) were in this same profile/feel/harmony I think you would be rewarded appropriately for it. The picture definitely appears to be a horse on the aids, attentive to the rider and accepting or waiting for what comes next......what could be better, right?

[Josette]

Ditto - another vote that I really like your photo. She has a lovely expression too.

[demi]

I really like the picture, too. A lot.

[khall]

Very nice photo and what I too would like to see. But I suspect you are correct that you might get penalized for this outline.

[blob]

I don't think you would be penalized for that outline!

[Flight]

Gorgeous photo and I personally aim for an outline like that with my horses!
But depending what level you would ride at, I wonder if some judges would think the frame was too 'open'.

[Domica]

Apologies for being late to the conversation but I wanted to chip in with a link to an article which I found very useful, about half way down the subject of hands and connection is discussed.
https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2017/ ... mmelsdorf/

[demi]

I finally got around to reading that article, Domica. Thanks for posting it. I think it explains things in a very understandable way.