HANDS - (was various training topics)

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khall
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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby khall » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:08 pm

I just cannot picture what Calvin is saying.

I like the PK video of him working piaffe/passage. That horse is very up and open, not something we are used to seeing. That lends to a straight line from elbow to bit for the most part IMO.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:58 pm

khall wrote:I just cannot picture what Calvin is saying.

I like the PK video of him working piaffe/passage. That horse is very up and open, not something we are used to seeing. That lends to a straight line from elbow to bit for the most part IMO.


If you follow the rein line back, it intersects the rider's shoulder
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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby khall » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:05 pm

Not correct equitation though. I don't care who the pictures are of. Having moments of high hand, yes but consistent, no.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:01 pm

One can consider any number of lines connecting any two points on a photo of a rider. Just because a line can be drawn doesn't imply any cogent biomechanics are involved.

There is a concept in science that if something is a number and you can measure it that doesn't necessarily mean anything just because it is measurable.

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby musical comedy » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 pm

Hey guys, I edited the title of this thread to HANDS. If not ok, let me know and I'll change it back. When I first put up the thread, I didn't intend for it to include a mish-mash of training topics. I was trying to say that I like it when specific topics are spun off so that are easy to find and all in the same place. Fortunately, this thread has stayed with hands as the topic, so I think the title change is ok.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Tsavo wrote:One can consider any number of lines connecting any two points on a photo of a rider. Just because a line can be drawn doesn't imply any cogent biomechanics are involved.

There is a concept in science that if something is a number and you can measure it that doesn't necessarily mean anything just because it is measurable.


Calvin made an observation, and I was attempting to clarify with an illustration. It's actually a (fairly) straight line between three points, the snaffle to the hand to the shoulder. I think the only "cogent biomechanics" are that most people's forearm and upper arms are the same length; if you make a fist and close your elbow completely, your fist will touch your shoulder. So it makes sense that if the rider closes the arm from an obtuse angle to a 90* angle, the line from the bit would point towards the shoulder, provided the horse doesn't curl or go well above the bit. It's probably the most efficient way for a rider to initiate a lifting action on the bit, and it sounds like most of us don't aim to ride around in that position all the time, but would prefer the straight bit/hand/elbow alignment as the default position.
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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:48 pm

Thank you MC!

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Chisamba » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:22 am

It's funny how people who. Love to argue keep on restating the one thing no one has disagreed on. That the ideal position is straight line bit to elbow has already been agreed. I haven't seen anyone say not.

The discussion is about moments of lifting, fixed hands, and lowered hands. Many of the best and most admired riders can be seen with moments of lifted hands. I have not seen many with lowered hands (below the straight line). I keep waiting for the rash of photos of low fixed hands.

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby khall » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:28 am

chisamba I guess you are directing your comments at me? That I love to argue? No, what I find so interesting is how many pictures and videos that are out there from PK to Uta G to even those who post here on the board where the ideal straight line from elbow to the bit (BTW several have hypothesized that there are reasons why these elite riders ride with high hands as commonplace that there must be a reason behind it) is broken upward. Some it is just a "moment in time" others who ride this way when riding in collection as their usual MO i.e. many of the competition elite riders that have had videos posted here Uta G and Isabel W. Again as a moment in time, valid correction, as normal MO WHY? Any thoughts on this? Tsavo has ventured down this road a bit. Is it because the horses are more often these days in a vertical profile, rarely seen like the horse PK was riding in piaffe/passage with open throat latch and IFV? Yes the straight line from bit to elbow is a widely accepted classic position, so why are these elite riders going against this practice. I was thinking about this earlier and wanted to go back before the RK debacle started, Reiner K being one of the older competitive riders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXMsopDt3mE

Granat Christine S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blGmBFbhDM8

Marzog and Ahleric
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEytZ9WGvWI

Horses with open throat latch and IFV, very different profile than what is seen in the competition scene now. Very different horses too. What we see in the competition arena at international levels are spectacular moving horses compared to Granat, Ahleric and Marzog. So is it stylized, is it training, is it the horses that are being bred these days? What happens when the rider as their normal MO rides with high hand it closes the horse's throat latch and can cause the horse to bear down rather than lift up. So does that set up a vicious cycle? I know in my own riding it can, why I will at times ride with bridged reins or neck rope or even the grab strap with a pinkie hold just as a reminder to not carry my hands high all the time.

BTW chisamba this thread also has been discussing how many elite riders do not ride with the classic arm position, but with broken upwards as the MO. Take a look at the videos that Tsavo posted on IW and UG (checkmate comment) they are consistently above the line, not just a momentary correction. WHY and what effect does this have on the horses?
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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby HafDressage » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:38 am

I haven't read most of the responses on this thread, nor the other thread that it's referencing, so I have no idea what's going on with the discussion, but I'm going to chime in some thoughts. :)

Flight wrote:What about Steffen Peters? He rides with his hands relatively low compared to others?
I wouldnt say his hands are unforgiving?


Okay so I really dislike the way Steffan rides with respect to his hands/arms. And I know someone will probably be offended by me insulting their dressage god, but that particular aspect of his riding is not ideal. I think his seat is super phenom and so he could probably do whatever he wants on some level, but for me, the hands are low and the arms often too straight. Now he isn't harsh, so I'm not saying that, but I do think that if he were to bring his hands up a bit and ride more "up to the bridle" his horses' backs would be more up, their necks would look better, and a lot of the piaffe issues with his newer horses might work themselves out. By no means I'm saying that I could do it better, but just that there is a "low hand" trend that I've heard plenty of US trainers espouse and I don't think it's helpful or particularly classical. Now, I'm not saying the opposite is correct where elbows are totally perpendicular, but somewhere in the middle of the two as a home base and then making corrections or allowments from there.

Now for me, my number one pet peeve in the world is long reins. They are NOT kinder by any stretch and once you get to a certain level, you are basically riding incorrecly if your reins are too long. Help your horse balance and connect your horse properly for god's sake (who am I yelling at? idk :lol: ). But, every once in awhile I see an upper level rider going around with their reins a mess and their horse in a training level frame trying to do I-1 and I literally want to scream at them to connect their horse. The reins, the seat, the back, the neck, the leg -- it's all interconnected. Anyway, that is my thing. :)

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Dresseur » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Khall, I'm still maintaining that the moments that are captured with high hands are moments of correction, CDj doesn't ride with a constantly high hand, neither does CH. You can find just as many pics/vids of them with the ideal line as you can with the broken upward line. I see more riders doing this motion that are trying to keep the horse more up and open (not saying they are achieving it), where as the riders that are doing RK or riding very compressed tend to stay low and locked. If you watch the videos closely, you can see moments of upward gestures and then returning to ideal. Haf, I agree with you re SP. I don't much care for his hands.

A high fixed hand will close a horse up, but in a different manner than a low fixed hand. I think the operative word is fixed. Is it a constant posture and the hand fixed in one area or does the rider move to correct and push the horse back out again. I'll add that usually you see the hand steadiest in piaffe/passage, but in trot and canter, you see more movement and more corrections. The higher the level of collection, the more precarious the balance and therefore, the smaller the corrections.
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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Tsavo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:30 pm

Dresseur wrote:Khall, I'm still maintaining that the moments that are captured with high hands are moments of correction


Given the frequency of high hands in these stock photos, they must be raising their hands constantly.

The videos reveal many of these people ride around with this broken upward line.

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby khall » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:44 pm

Dresseur did you watch the videos of Uta G and Isabelle W? They are riding with consistent high hands, not just a moment in time especially Uta G. Videos are much better at showing the full extent of the riding than just pictures. The video of RK at 84 Olympics clearly show him doing arets then back to neutral with arm, hand position at ideal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&t=157s

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Dresseur » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:54 pm

The Graf vid with Damon Jerome? I'm just speculating, because I've seen her with a less high hand on other horses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byIy0EPbpY8- he seems to want to curl and compress... every time she lowers her hand, he closes. Isabelle is Isabelle. Gotta run to a meeting.

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Chisamba » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:12 pm

khall wrote:chisamba I guess you are directing your comments at me? That I love to argue? No, what I find so interesting is how many pictures and videos that are out there from PK to Uta G to even those who post here on the board where the ideal straight line from elbow to the bit (BTW several have hypothesized that there are reasons why these elite riders ride with high hands as commonplace that there must be a reason behind it) is broken upward. Some it is just a "moment in time" others who ride this way when riding in collection as their usual MO i.e. many of the competition elite riders that have had videos posted here Uta G and Isabel W. Again as a moment in time, valid correction, as normal MO WHY? Any thoughts on this? Tsavo has ventured down this road a bit. Is it because the horses are more often these days in a vertical profile, rarely seen like the horse PK was riding in piaffe/passage with open throat latch and IFV? Yes the straight line from bit to elbow is a widely accepted classic position, so why are these elite riders going against this practice. I was thinking about this earlier and wanted to go back before the RK debacle started, Reiner K being one of the older competitive riders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXMsopDt3mE

Granat Christine S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blGmBFbhDM8

Marzog and Ahleric
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEytZ9WGvWI

Horses with open throat latch and IFV, very different profile than what is seen in the competition scene now. Very different horses too. What we see in the competition arena at international levels are spectacular moving horses compared to Granat, Ahleric and Marzog. So is it stylized, is it training, is it the horses that are being bred these days? What happens when the rider as their normal MO rides with high hand it closes the horse's throat latch and can cause the horse to bear down rather than lift up. So does that set up a vicious cycle? I know in my own riding it can, why I will at times ride with bridged reins or neck rope or even the grab strap with a pinkie hold just as a reminder to not carry my hands high all the time.

BTW chisamba this thread also has been discussing how many elite riders do not ride with the classic arm position, but with broken upwards as the MO. Take a look at the videos that Tsavo posted on IW and UG (checkmate comment) they are consistently above the line, not just a momentary correction. WHY and what effect does this have on the horses?


actually no, i was not referencing you. I suppose its my fault for being vague.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Chisamba » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:22 pm

HafDressage wrote:I haven't read most of the responses on this thread, nor the other thread that it's referencing, so I have no idea what's going on with the discussion, but I'm going to chime in some thoughts. :)

Flight wrote:What about Steffen Peters? He rides with his hands relatively low compared to others?
I wouldnt say his hands are unforgiving?


Okay so I really dislike the way Steffan rides with respect to his hands/arms. And I know someone will probably be offended by me insulting their dressage god, but that particular aspect of his riding is not ideal. I think his seat is super phenom and so he could probably do whatever he wants on some level, but for me, the hands are low and the arms often too straight. Now he isn't harsh, so I'm not saying that, but I do think that if he were to bring his hands up a bit and ride more "up to the bridle" his horses' backs would be more up, their necks would look better, and a lot of the piaffe issues with his newer horses might work themselves out. By no means I'm saying that I could do it better, but just that there is a "low hand" trend that I've heard plenty of US trainers espouse and I don't think it's helpful or particularly classical. Now, I'm not saying the opposite is correct where elbows are totally perpendicular, but somewhere in the middle of the two as a home base and then making corrections or allowments from there.

Now for me, my number one pet peeve in the world is long reins. They are NOT kinder by any stretch and once you get to a certain level, you are basically riding incorrecly if your reins are too long. Help your horse balance and connect your horse properly for god's sake (who am I yelling at? idk :lol: ). But, every once in awhile I see an upper level rider going around with their reins a mess and their horse in a training level frame trying to do I-1 and I literally want to scream at them to connect their horse. The reins, the seat, the back, the neck, the leg -- it's all interconnected. Anyway, that is my thing. :)


i think everyone has good points and less good points, Steffen has certainly ridden consistently at a much higher level than I have, and very admirably. I have often wondered why Steffen tends to buy horses that have been started in the rollkur method? HafDressage, he in particular seems to drop his hands in the piaffe work. if you look at a number of photos of him, he approaches the straight line, but does drop his hands in piaffe and extensions and pirouette , he also leans in his pirouette, i once joking said ( cause leaning is my worst thing in piro) i guess if Steffen can do it and be so successful, so can i ;)

rein length : its so easy to ride by feel ( Jeremy Steinberg warned about this in the clinic notes) and longer reins are less work.

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Dresseur » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:42 pm

By the way... I'm really appreciating the civil discourse here, even when there is disagreement.

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby musical comedy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:59 pm

Dresseur wrote:By the way... I'm really appreciating the civil discourse here, even when there is disagreement.
:lol: Maybe I shouldn't post anything then.

Chisamba wrote: i think everyone has good points and less good points
Haha, yes. The thing is that we here are not all on the same page. We do not all like the same BNT's. All aren't at the same level of experience. Our end goals are different. Etc. Etc.

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Re: HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby Dresseur » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:01 pm

MC, you've been civil. Just blunt. Which I appreciate - I am a blunt person myself, even if my writing is a bit more tactful than I can be in person.


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