Ignorance and getting rolled

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Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:49 pm

Given how working class Republicans can be played or just know they are voting against their own interests, and given how the electoral college, gerrymandering, vote changing, etc. are effective at keeping a Party of only ~25% of the public in power, it is possible that the US is in danger of succumbing to evil just like Germany.

This is the fight that may bleed into the streets.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby kande50 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:43 pm

The problem is that no one has any facts, so they're believing whatever they choose to believe. So for every argument anyone puts out there the "other side" has a different set of "facts" that support their beliefs.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Angfreda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:52 pm

kande50 wrote:The problem is that no one has any facts, so they're believing whatever they choose to believe. So for every argument anyone puts out there the "other side" has a different set of "facts" that support their beliefs.


Yes Virginia, Facts do still exist.

First step is to stop the 'alternate Fact' spinning. SHS and KAC and the like need to be called out every time they tell a big fat whopper of a lie and pretend it represents any reality any of us recognize.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby kande50 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:40 pm

Angfreda wrote:irst step is to stop the 'alternate Fact' spinning. SHS and KAC and the like need to be called out every time they tell a big fat whopper of a lie and pretend it represents any reality any of us recognize.


Problem is that we have no way to know which "facts" are true, partly true, or false, so believe based upon our beliefs.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Angfreda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:13 pm

kande50 wrote:
Angfreda wrote:irst step is to stop the 'alternate Fact' spinning. SHS and KAC and the like need to be called out every time they tell a big fat whopper of a lie and pretend it represents any reality any of us recognize.


Problem is that we have no way to know which "facts" are true, partly true, or false, so believe based upon our beliefs.


Sure we do.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:47 pm

kande50 wrote:Problem is that we have no way to know which "facts" are true, partly true, or false, so believe based upon our beliefs.


That's what creationists say and they are 1,000 percent wrong also.

Next.
Last edited by Tsavo on Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:50 pm

Tsavo wrote:Given how working class Republicans can be played or just know they are voting against their own interests,


Or, the working class Republicans, like most (I suspect, but a guess on my part not based on documented fact) are one issue voters and there is much the President says that appeals to their one issue. You may choose to believe they are being ignorant, etc but they, more than likely, feel the same about you.

I live in a state where sometimes it is scary to see the opinions of people... that's all I gotta say.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:52 pm

Tsavo wrote:
kande50 wrote:
Angfreda wrote:Problem is that we have no way to know which "facts" are true, partly true, or false, so believe based upon our beliefs.


That's what creationists say and they are 1,000 percent wrong also.

Next.


In your opinion, they are wrong.

Why is it that people with an opposing view need to "listen" to your point of view while you appear to refuse to listen to opposing points of view??

If you will not treat me and my opposing point of view with respect, why should I respect you and yours?

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:29 pm

People are entitled to their own opinions. They are not entitled to their own facts.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Angfreda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:04 pm

Tsavo wrote:
kande50 wrote:
Angfreda wrote:Problem is that we have no way to know which "facts" are true, partly true, or false, so believe based upon our beliefs.


That's what creationists say and they are 1,000 percent wrong also.

Next.


Tsavo, can you fix that post? I did not write that, and I prefer no one think I did.
Thanks

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby kande50 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:28 pm

Angfreda wrote:
Sure we do.


And that way is?

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby kande50 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:34 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:you may choose to believe they are being ignorant, etc but they, more than likely, feel the same about you.


And that's exactly the feedback I get when I talk to pro-Trump voters. The term "educated idiots", and similar, come up often.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Chisamba » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:48 pm

Well, I suppose I consider myself a moderate. The left think I am an ignorant right, and the right think I am an ignorant left.

It's kind of funny that the one thing that is agreed on is their opinion is correct and the other opinion is ignorant.

I disagree that truth and facts are easily acquired. Opinions may be easily found but evidence is rare. Even more rare is evidence expressed factually, and not spun to reflect a point of view.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Chancellor » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:29 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
kande50 wrote:


That's what creationists say and they are 1,000 percent wrong also.

Next.


In your opinion, they are wrong.

Why is it that people with an opposing view need to "listen" to your point of view while you appear to refuse to listen to opposing points of view??

If you will not treat me and my opposing point of view with respect, why should I respect you and yours?


Totally agree with you WMW. I think it is very important to listen to both sides and make up your own mind.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:14 pm

Angfreda wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
kande50 wrote:


That's what creationists say and they are 1,000 percent wrong also.

Next.


Tsavo, can you fix that post? I did not write that, and I prefer no one think I did.
Thanks


Oh gosh 1,000 apologies, Angfreda!

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:08 am

Fact versus opinion... can we tell the difference?

1. FWS either did or not change the rule about allowing trophy hunting victims into the country. They did. Lettered people confidently predict this will increase US trophy hunters killing animals in Africa. Their field, they get to weigh in.

2. Changing certain environmental rules to allow more emissions of mercury and arsenic either will or will not result in more unnecessary illnesses and deaths. Epidemiologists say yes. Their field, they get to weigh in.

3. Trump's tariffs have or have not directly triggered a massive planned layoff at Ford. Ford SAID the tariffs triggered the layoffs.

4. Trump's cabinet either is or is not the most corrupt in modern history based on objective criteria like turnover rate. It is.

5. Etc.
Last edited by Tsavo on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:13 am

6. Pence either is or is not a total dick. He is based on his record in Indiana of exacerbating the HIV crisis by dragging his feet on needle exchanges, being a Christian supremacist dominionist, and being a "super-genius" creationist, inter alia.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Angfreda » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:06 pm

kande50 wrote:
Angfreda wrote:
Sure we do.


And that way is?


Read, seek out the sources and read those.
Facts are under there, people are just too lazy to dig.
Others are too happy to suggest that those who have formed opinions did so without doing that digging as well, because it fits their 'the other side is just biased' narrative that supports their own bias.

Unless you ask and then listen to WHY someone's opinion is what it is, you really aren't accurate when you 'Knee-jerk' suggest that it's 'spin'.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:33 pm

kande50 wrote:
WheresMyWhite wrote:you may choose to believe they are being ignorant, etc but they, more than likely, feel the same about you.


And that's exactly the feedback I get when I talk to pro-Trump voters. The term "educated idiots", and similar, come up often.


So you lower yourself to the opposing view's level?

Just because someone else may think I am an uninformed idiot (and I'm sure there are many that do :) ) doesn't mean that I should think they are also an uniformed idiot. I would instead choose to not agree with their opinion while having my own and just consider that their view is not the same as mine, not that they are an uninformed idiot. Perhaps a matter of perspective but simply my opinion :)

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Chancellor » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:13 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
kande50 wrote:
WheresMyWhite wrote:you may choose to believe they are being ignorant, etc but they, more than likely, feel the same about you.


And that's exactly the feedback I get when I talk to pro-Trump voters. The term "educated idiots", and similar, come up often.


So you lower yourself to the opposing view's level?

Just because someone else may think I am an uninformed idiot (and I'm sure there are many that do :) ) doesn't mean that I should think they are also an uniformed idiot. I would instead choose to not agree with their opinion while having my own and just consider that their view is not the same as mine, not that they are an uninformed idiot. Perhaps a matter of perspective but simply my opinion :)


Emphasis mine. YES....100 times yes.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Angfreda » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:33 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
kande50 wrote:
WheresMyWhite wrote:you may choose to believe they are being ignorant, etc but they, more than likely, feel the same about you.


And that's exactly the feedback I get when I talk to pro-Trump voters. The term "educated idiots", and similar, come up often.


So you lower yourself to the opposing view's level?

Just because someone else may think I am an uninformed idiot (and I'm sure there are many that do :) ) doesn't mean that I should think they are also an uniformed idiot. I would instead choose to not agree with their opinion while having my own and just consider that their view is not the same as mine, not that they are an uninformed idiot. Perhaps a matter of perspective but simply my opinion :)


When what they say is, in fact, ill-informed... yes, the lack of information behind their stance is something that needs calling out.
If the shoe fits, put that stilletto on and wear it!

Why do we suddenly have to be PC about people who are spouting off about stuff they only have half the facts on?
How do we ever elevate the level of knowledge and understanding of these important issues if we simply shurg, chalk it up to being a differnece of opinion and walk away?

This nation isn't going to be and become better by people too delicate to hear the truth or people being too delicate to explain the truth to those who aren't fully aware of it.

{And lest the goal post get moved or my words interpreted wrongly or in a way not intended or implied... I am being general, nonspecific, on purpose. I believe the above as a general rule, regarding a myriad of topics}

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:35 pm

Angfreda wrote:This nation isn't going to be and become better by people too delicate to hear the truth or people being too delicate to explain the truth to those who aren't fully aware of it.


But often is it the "truth" or someone's "opinion"?

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Angfreda » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:05 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Angfreda wrote:This nation isn't going to be and become better by people too delicate to hear the truth or people being too delicate to explain the truth to those who aren't fully aware of it.


But often is it the "truth" or someone's "opinion"?


It ca be sussed out if one wishes to do so

Read, seek out the sources and read those.
Facts are under there, people are just too lazy to dig.
Others are too happy to suggest that those who have formed opinions did so without doing that digging as well, because it fits their 'the other side is just biased' narrative that supports their own bias.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:37 pm

Angfreda wrote:Read, seek out the sources and read those.
Facts are under there, people are just too lazy to dig.
Others are too happy to suggest that those who have formed opinions did so without doing that digging as well, because it fits their 'the other side is just biased' narrative that supports their own bias.


Frankly, I do my own digging over listening to others' opinions which may be based on "edited" facts (since statistics can be bent to show just about anything). I read, I research and I form my own opinion (yes, it is *my* opinion). I rarely share my opinion with anyone, even F2F.

If others can't/won't/don't do their own research, I can't help that.

I actually do presume (which can be dangerous) that many here do their own research and digging and present opinions based on their interpretation of facts, statistics, etc. Doesn't mean they are right, just means that is their opinion :) (What, after all, really is *right* other than agreeing with my opinion or not agreeing with my opinion?) :)

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Angfreda » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:02 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Angfreda wrote:Read, seek out the sources and read those.
Facts are under there, people are just too lazy to dig.
Others are too happy to suggest that those who have formed opinions did so without doing that digging as well, because it fits their 'the other side is just biased' narrative that supports their own bias.


Frankly, I do my own digging over listening to others' opinions which may be based on "edited" facts (since statistics can be bent to show just about anything). I read, I research and I form my own opinion (yes, it is *my* opinion). I rarely share my opinion with anyone, even F2F.

If others can't/won't/don't do their own research, I can't help that.

I actually do presume (which can be dangerous) that many here do their own research and digging and present opinions based on their interpretation of facts, statistics, etc. Doesn't mean they are right, just means that is their opinion :) (What, after all, really is *right* other than agreeing with my opinion or not agreeing with my opinion?) :)


You asked how often something is someone's opinion and how often is it a fact.
I explained you can figure out if something someone says is one or the other.
So what you are saying is that once someone says it, it's their opinion and no longer fact?

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:59 pm

Angfreda wrote:
You asked how often something is someone's opinion and how often is it a fact.
I explained you can figure out if something someone says is one or the other.
So what you are saying is that once someone says it, it's their opinion and no longer fact?


I think we first need a good definition of what is a fact and what isn't.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:57 pm

kande50 wrote:I think we first need a good definition of what is a fact and what isn't.


fact: a piece of objective reality

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:00 pm

"The Dunning-Kruger Effect May Help Explain Trump's Support" (May??!?!?)

A new study published in the journal Political Psychology, carried out by the political scientist Ian Anson at the University of Maryland Baltimore County, not only found that the Dunning-Kruger effect applies to politics, it also appears to be exacerbated when partisan identities are made more salient. In other words, those who score low on political knowledge tend to overestimate their expertise even more when greater emphasis is placed on political affiliation.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ps-support

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:23 pm

Tsavo wrote:
kande50 wrote:I think we first need a good definition of what is a fact and what isn't.


fact: a piece of objective reality


??

A thing that is known or proved to be true.


Per the English Oxford Living Dictionaries.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tsavo » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:36 pm

Same thing

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:17 pm

Tsavo wrote:Same thing


Really, I would have never guessed that 'objective reality' is the same as something which is known or proven to be true. If it works for you it must be the same... :?

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Koolkat » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:29 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Tsavo wrote:Same thing


Really, I would have never guessed that 'objective reality' is the same as something which is known or proven to be true. If it works for you it must be the same... :?


If you're guessing, it may or may not be true. . . ;)

Objective reality works for me, perhaps a little more abstract definition.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby aregard » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:21 pm

I'm not sure it's even a fight over the facts.

I think we have to consider our value sets as well.

When someone does something that is utterly contrary to our values, we have to pause for a moment and question our stance.

Excusing the Khashoggi murder? That's entirely and completely contrary to our U.S. values, as well as contrary to personal values.

Demonizing immigrants when we are all descendants of immigrants? That's a tougher one, because we do have processes (that don't work very well) for legal application and many are end-running that. There is an economic concern, but it's not considered very deeply very often. (I.e., the problem isn't that some border-busting immigrant is going to take your job. You don't work as a fruit picker. You're far more likely to lose your job to an H1B visa person, and those applications are driven by your employer. (generalized "you"))

Graft on high? I think people dislike it, think it's terrible and base and venal, but they expect it. We don't expect our politicians to be clean.

Separating children from their parents at the border? WTF? Deporting the parents WITHOUT the children they came with? WTAF?

I'm in the camp that thinks mocking the disabled reporter should have been the end of it.

I think we have to approach people on their value sets as well as their facts.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby khall » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:00 pm

aregard I agree with all of your points and certainly Trump A) should have never been elected president for so many reasons (he has no clue nor does he want to about how government runs) B) Trump never expected to become president (and it looks like he should not have i.e. COLLUSION).

How do you feel about those who are still supporting the asshat in chief? Living in a deep red state (Georgia) there are still plenty of Trump supporters here. I think they are all idiots.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby aregard » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:23 am

khall wrote:How do you feel about those who are still supporting the asshat in chief? Living in a deep red state (Georgia) there are still plenty of Trump supporters here. I think they are all idiots.


I don't know many (I live in a 'safe' zone in California). But when I speak to someone face-to-face who is a Trump supporter, I ask them what their big political issues are, and we talk about those issues (rather than about Trump). About half the time (remember, small sample), they will say something like, "I thought he was gonna help with XYZ, but turns out..."

Generally, I don't talk about Trump. Guy's a buffoon, and inconsistent besides. So what's the point talking about what Trump promised? The only sensible thing is to talk about what he hasn't delivered.

Online, Facebook, well, I'm probably as shoot-from-the-hip sloganeering as anybody else. Those aren't actual conversations. I don't think people have conversations on Facebook.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby khall » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:48 pm

I don't have to go to FB for a conversation on Trump or the GOP in general. These are people I know (some are extended family:( ) and it just boggles my mind. I've told them I did not like this man before he even ran for President, I despise him now. I do think the chickens will come home to roost and Trump will end up serving jail time along with his felonious family.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Koolkat » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:59 pm

khall wrote:I do think the chickens will come home to roost and Trump will end up serving jail time along with his felonious family.


It is my fervent hope that Trump serves out his presidency before he serves any other time. Pence is re-electable and he scares the beejabbers out of me.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tarlo Farm » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:30 pm

The whole election is tainted and was corrupted by the Russians and should be rolled back - as well as any appointee or executive order that occurred during this time.

kande50 wrote:I think we first need a good definition of what is a fact and what isn't.


And facts often have numbers and can be measured. And sometimes they are direct quotes, for instance Trump is on video saying X before he said Y about Z. Facts are truth supported by proof. Not opinion.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby khall » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:56 pm

I fully agree Tarlo Farm! We are learning more about how the election was tainted and not just by the Russians! But by Trump himself.

I do not think Pence is re-electable at all. He is no way has any of the same pull that Trump did (remember Trump lost the popular vote by quite a bit and only won the electoral college by 70,000 or so). I really think that after everything comes out from Mueller and all the other lawsuits and investigations the GOP will not be electable in 2020. Just look what happened in the midterms.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Tarlo Farm » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:17 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Tsavo wrote:Same thing


Really, I would have never guessed that 'objective reality' is the same as something which is known or proven to be true. If it works for you it must be the same... :?


Objective = without bias or influence
Reality = that which is authentic
And I like numbers when available.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:25 pm

Tarlo Farm wrote:Objective = without bias or influence
Reality = that which is authentic
And I like numbers when available.


Each of which is in one person's opinion... I like numbers too. Numbers can often be spun to fit the need or desired interpretation.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Chancellor » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:48 pm

Each of which is in one person's opinion... I like numbers too. Numbers can often be spun to fit the need or desired interpretation.


Ain't that the truth?

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:00 pm

Pet peeve alert: Numbers do not lie. Math is not biased towards a certain outcome.

However. Context is critical. Neglecting to mention boundary conditions, assumptions, and limitations of the dataset can skew the interpretation of the data.

I have seen a rise in the "Well numbers lie and experts lie and everyone lies, so why should I be persuaded to change my opinion?"-type conversations. There are actually truths in this world, people. Not everything is subjective (and therefore "everyone's opinion matters").

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:38 pm

Right there with you, Ponichiwa.

Piedmontfields, living the data-driven life---scary numbers and all

p.s. This does not mean that I do not have a critical point of view on the sources or means of acquiring data, or of analyses or interpretations of data---but there really are acceptable, consistent tools for describing many parts of reality in a numerical way. Rejecting this information full stop is a rapid road to being incredibly easy to persuade and distract.

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:12 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Pet peeve alert: Numbers do not lie. Math is not biased towards a certain outcome.
However. Context is critical. Neglecting to mention boundary conditions, assumptions, and limitations of the dataset can skew the interpretation of the data.


My opinion only. Numbers themselves do not "lie". They are what they are.

What can offer misleading information are statistics. How hard numbers are plugged into various statistics formulas can change the resulting "information".

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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 pm

I disagree again. Statistics alone aren't malicious or evil either; the issue is usually the application of those statistics to draw conclusions.

Example. I've got a bag with 20 marbles in it. I'll let you draw 2. Both turn out to be green, so 100% of the marbles that you've drawn are green. Nothing earthshattering here. If you say then that 100% of all the marbles in the bag must be green, that's not actually a statement that's supported by the data-- but that's a conclusion you may (erroneously) reach based on the observations you've made so far.

Less clear-cut example: students' test scores are expected to follow a normal distribution. In one test administered to 40 students, there appears to be a bimodal distribution: a cluster of high-performing students and a cluster of low-performing students a fairly large distance apart on the scale. Based on the results, you may have some hypotheses:
a) The students clustered at the top cheated!
b) The test itself is unfair
c) The test itself has properties that do not lend itself to a normal distribution

Of the potential hypotheses, you have no way of knowing (with the information presented) which is likely to be true. The only thing you know is that your expectation (normal distribution) was not met with the actual results (bimodal). It's possible to test some of those hypotheses, especially the last one: did the test have questions whose answers depended on results from previous questions? If so, it is unlikely that the scores will follow a normal distribution at all (unless your partial credit system is fair).

I work in a field where statistics are necessary to make decisions, because getting all information necessary to remove all risk in our decisions is prohibitively expensive, for one, and may not even be possible. We have to use the information available to us at the time to create stats models that drive our decisions, and we update those statistical models as new information comes in. As a result, on average we make money (but we certainly don't make money on every decision, even though we do try).

The world will have uncertainty. Statistics makes it possible to make quality decisions in an uncertain world, but only if you recognize the assumptions ("known unknowns") that you've made to make those decisions.

WheresMyWhite
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Re: Ignorance and getting rolled

Postby WheresMyWhite » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:I disagree again. Statistics alone aren't malicious or evil either; the issue is usually the application of those statistics to draw conclusions.


I think this is what I was trying to say but you said it much more clearly. The data itself is what it is. Stats can influence how the data is represented.


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