global muscles vs postural muscles

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khall
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global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby khall » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:43 pm

So in my search for greater understanding of the work we do in dressage I have taken Jillian Kreinbring's biomechanics course twice now. Plus I have a holistic vet that does acupuncture and chiro work. They both talk about activating the postural muscles to help correct the biomechanics in horses. I've done this via WIH and extensive lateral work (which is how I warm up my horses) to target those postural muscles then move on to the global muscles under saddle. In May when I hosted Jillian she had strongly suggested to WIH first with even just a bit of lateral work to fire up the postural muscles before getting on the horse. Mark almost always did this or if he got straight on he went into lateral work US at the walk.

I was doing some googling of this and a DT article popped up https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/d ... ss-program and a book by Jec A Ballou popped up that looked interesting so I ordered it as well.

Any thoughts?

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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Anne » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:25 am

I love that Dressage Today article, I found it a few months ago (linked from something else I was reading), and it seems to make a lot of sense to me to encourage the activation of 'other' muscles. I also like what I have read of the Masterson method, and am trying to use some of it to release the tension in my reactive/spooky/suspicious youngster. Also really like doing some warm up in-hand, but have only learned from books/video, so do not feel that competent. I always do a walk around, rein-back, and step over ('turn on forehand' -ish) each way before getting on.

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Chisamba
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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Chisamba » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:19 pm

I am exceptionally sceptical that wriggling any part of your horse will have any effect on the intrinsic muscles. Or carry any value over into riding. First , your horse will have no memory of the exercise 3 seconds later, and secondly they well completely change their posture as soon as you mount.

A good grooming will relax, stimulate and improve circulation better than wiggle wiggle wiggle.

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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:34 pm

Chisamba wrote:I am exceptionally sceptical that wriggling any part of your horse will have any effect on the intrinsic muscles. Or carry any value over into riding. First , your horse will have no memory of the exercise 3 seconds later, and secondly they well completely change their posture as soon as you mount.

A good grooming will relax, stimulate and improve circulation better than wiggle wiggle wiggle.



Did you read the article? Its about developing more awareness of the body. Though this article doesn't really speak about classical in hand work/Mary Wanless type biomechanics, it has value. Yes, my horse does remember the exercises days later, but of course it has to be reinforced by the rider being correct and asking for the same thing.

Essentially this is just another way of discussing classical dressage/throasic sling/Psoas muscles/collection. Nothing new, just slick marketing at times!

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Chisamba
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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:03 pm

I was supposed to read it before commenting? Wow, who knew! I routinely comment in things I dont read , especially specific exercises described in the article like wiggling the tail to find intrinsic muscles.

you didnt recognize what I was referring to? Grab your horses um sacrum and wiggle it from side to side til its nose wobbles for 2 minutes.

So no I clearly did not read the article.

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Chisamba
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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:49 pm

By the way, if I comment on an article, especially something specific to the article, I think it an intended insult if someone quotes me and asks if I read the article.

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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:28 pm

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Last edited by Ryeissa on Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

khall
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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby khall » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:03 pm

I know nothing about Masterson method in body work, though I have been intrigued with it. I use WIH with jaw flexions if needed and yes those jaw flexions do make a difference in the horse. I like to test and see how smoothly the AO joint works in the horse and if I find tension or brace I address it by asking the horse to release that brace in a similar movement shown in the picture in the article. You can also attempt stelling in your work in hand. Shown here in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYDZICKU7M. This is very similar to what Mark taught, though he was a firm believer in using the bit not the caveson as you develop your horse in hand.

I've also seen my holistic vet do the wiggle from behind to test the horse's spinal flexibility. I myself have never tried it.

I use the lateral WIH to get the postural muscles firing. I also just purchased Jec Balou's book 55 corrective exercises for horses which gives you work you can do in hand and US with obstacles to help develop those postural muscles.

IMO no grooming deep or otherwise will work on the postural muscles activation. Not that I am against a good deep grooming, but not how I would go about developing my horse's posture. That requires actual activity of some sort.

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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby StraightForward » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:01 pm

At the Masterson workshop last weekend, a few students asked about which things could be used before a ride. The movements that address the deep spinal areas were not among them. For a full workup including the "sacrum wiggle" they recommended at least 1-2 days off with just turnout or hand walking afterwards, as it can somewhat reset the horse's proprioception. They did recommend lateral cervical flexion prior to a ride though, which is consistent with doing in-hand flexions, as well as putting the thumb on the palate to activate the tongue and hyoid.

ETA:. The sacrum wiggle was also done at the very end of a full session, after working through the key junctions (poll, withers, s/I).
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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:01 pm

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Last edited by Ryeissa on Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Chisamba
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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Chisamba » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:22 pm

So you wiggle the horse from sacrum nto to nose for two minutes then dont ride for 2 days?

Maybe the article shouldnt recommend other people's techniques without clarification.

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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Chisamba » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:32 pm

Ryeissa wrote:eh, never mind. Not sure what you are getting at here, but lets move on


Eh, by all means. You are now a foe. Do not bother to quote me, I will not unblock to read.

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Re: global muscles vs postural muscles

Postby Kyra's Mom » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:10 am

Well...I guess I have the 'luxury' of having only one horse to be beholden to. I have time to putz around with other 'stuff' besides pure dressage training. Add onto that the fact that I was able to ride very little for over 3 years due to my physical issues. I have used a lot of work-in-hand, a lot of liberty work and NH work (Karen Rohlf's exercises) in that time. My horse improved loads under saddle (when Straightforward rode her) with only my ground work in between the blocks of 2-4 months that she could ride her. I don't know what muscles she was using but she definitely developed better self carriage and engagement.

And yes...I like to wiggle my horse :lol: . It gives me some feedback on where she might be holding or tight. I am sure once I plunk my big butt in the middle of her back, she has to engage a whole 'nuther set of muscles. Like most everyone else, I do lateral work in our warm-up to try and make sure all the parts are lubed and she is moving fairly evenly. I like to establish as much relaxation in her as I can. Tension has always been her #1 issue and she is a much nicer ride if we can start from a place of relaxation...both physical and mental.

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